OSAS

[Cbailey2]

Men may be able to twist their opinion of what Scripture means, but the truth of Scripture is quite specific. That is why we use context, logic, lexicons, concordances, but most importantly, prayer and the Paraclete. Since this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, I will refrain from debating, and submit this thesis as written.

Maranatha33,

Thanks for your testimony on what you believe, as well as the thesis you submitted. I think we all agree that scripture has been twisted by men (and women) to mean many, many things. I think we all agree that there is One Truth.

I do think, however, it is disingenuous for you to claim that you possess that Truth because you study, pray, and have the Holy Spirit on your side: we (and all of the 10s/100s/1000s of Christian denominations are doing that) are all doing that! I don’t doubt the sincerity of your desire to know God’s Truth; why would you doubt ours?

(Unless you believe we are lying about knowing the Paraclete to either you or ourselves…but the follow up question would be, how does any of us really know if we are lying to ourselves? I submit bad American Idol contestants who firmly believe they can sing but empirically can’t as exhibit number one).

You have to see that answering the question of “who’s right?” with “I Am!” is insufficient. The Apostles and early disciples knew their interpretation of scripture was right because a) Jesus taught them directly and b) they wrote the NT. The followers of the Apostles and early disciples knew they were right because they were taught by the people whom Christ taught. The next generation knew because they were taught by the previous one. Yes, the Paraclete worked in them, granting them the gifts of the Spirit, but they also had teachers. We believe this process has continued until today, so that Truth has been preserved (and thus can be traced back through 2000 years of history).

To say “the Holy Spirit guides me therefore I am right” is to wish away everyone else who is saying the same thing. It is also to ignore that most of us have had instruction from other people when it comes to scripture (from Pastors to friends, parents to professors, internet articles to early Christian letters, etc.): how do we know that the Holy Spirit is in those people as well? Yes, they claim to have it, as do the people you disagree with. What is your measure for trusting the presence of the Paraclete in them, other than you already agree with them?

The foundational belief of all major Christian denominations is that only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient propitiation for the sins of man. OSAS is based on the one historical event at Calvary some 2000 years ago. Since this specific propitiation through the crucifixion and resurrection was only done “once for all” only one action is able to offer salvation. Once this offer has been given to man and accepted by “grace through faith” it has to be eternal because the Bible records no other possible means for salvation. If one can lose their salvation, Jesus would have to be crucified again, and that idea is simply unbiblical. There are no references to the crucifixion being performed more than once.

As Christ is eternal, so is his sacrifice. The blood of the Lamb is still flowing in the Book of Revelation. You view Christ as a Bus or Airplane Ticket: once purchased (with faith), it cannot be lost and will bear you straight to heaven. But is that Biblical? We know that we have free will. We know that sin causes death. We know that we cannot have two masters. We know that Christians sin. If a Christian chooses sin over Christ, what master is he or she serving?

We believe that Christ is a Gate through which we must pass, a Gate to which God calls us; a Gate to which the Holy Spirit guides us; and a Gate through which we must walk (as in, “talk the talk, walk the walk”), following as imitators of Christ.

Our faith in (love for) Christ is the reason we start the journey but should we expect Christ to drag the “faithful” through if they make little effort to move closer to him? What does that say about free will? What does that say about love? If the believer cannot choose to fall away from Christ, how can they truly choose to love him? Yes, I will make a commitment to love my wife and I will vow it before God, but I’d be a fool to think that one happy day makes a successful marriage. Love and faith take work(s).

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn’t you include Jesus’ washing of His disciples feet in John 13 as evidence that the Son of God made Himself submissive to men? Even if He only did it as an example, He performed the work of a slave.

 

[JRKH]

While I realize that this will not be adhered to - indeed cannot be adhered to by OSAS believers, I will once again interject that this is 18 pages of discussion is exactly WHY Jesus founded a visible and authoritative Church.

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(Note: Teaching False doctrine is a sin. We, as your Christian Bothers are compelled to tell you that it is a sin. We cannot just agree to disagree)
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
(Note: We have brought “2 or three others” just as you have done. There is no resolution. Therefore there is but one recourse left to ANY TRUE follower of Christ)
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
(So Christ recognized and instituted a Church that we are to listen to and obey because the Church has the power to “Bind and Loose - Whatever” in Heaven and On Earth.

So - My Brothers and Sisters in Christ, are you willing to submit to the Authority of Christ’s authoritative Church?

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

While I realize that this will not be adhered to - indeed cannot be adhered to by OSAS believers, I will once again interject that this is 18 pages of discussion is exactly WHY Jesus founded a visible and authoritative Church.

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
(Note: Teaching False doctrine is a sin. We, as your Christian Bothers are compelled to tell you that it is a sin. We cannot just agree to disagree)
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
(Note: We have brought “2 or three others” just as you have done. There is no resolution. Therefore there is but one recourse left to ANY TRUE follower of Christ)
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
(So Christ recognized and instituted a Church that we are to listen to and obey because the Church has the power to “Bind and Loose - Whatever” in Heaven and On Earth.

So - My Brothers and Sisters in Christ, are you willing to submit to the Authority of Christ’s authoritative Church?

Peace
James

You are spot on there.

Jesus said you are either hot or cold, No lukewarm. You either sumit to the authority of the Church or you don’t. No in between!

 

[Pax]

Hi all!

…
…

The foundational belief of all major Christian denominations is that only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient propitiation for the sins of man. OSAS is based on the one historical event at Calvary some 2000 years ago. Since this specific propitiation through the crucifixion and resurrection was only done “once for all” only one action is able to offer salvation. Once this offer has been given to man and accepted by “grace through faith” it has to be eternal because the Bible records no other possible means for salvation. If one can lose their salvation, Jesus would have to be crucified again, and that idea is simply unbiblical. There are no references to the crucifixion being performed more than once.

**Hebrews 5:10
10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ *once for all.

---

Hebrews 7:27
27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need* to offer sacrifices day after day,* first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 9:12, 15
12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Note that the redemption (from sin) and inheritance (of heaven) are both eternal, thus only happen once.

**Hebrews 10:10, 12, 13.
10And by that will, we have been made holy through *the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. **12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, *he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
(note. Verse 11 referred to the priests of the O.T., thus I felt it doesn’t apply. The quoted verses are eternal in nature, thus do apply.)
…
…

Maranatha in Christ,

Jesus only died once and Catholics do not believe that he is killed again upon our altars. Instead, the holy sacrifice is represented in time as we follow the words of Jesus to “Do this in remembrance of me.”

Please be advised that looking to the book of Hebrews is a good thing to do. The problem is that none of what you quoted from Hebrews or elsewhere indicate that salvation is to be understood in terms of OSAS. The book of Hebrews actually denies your claims, especially the idea that Jesus would have to be sacrificed over again if someone were to fall away.

Jesus sacrifice is eternal and he stands before the altar as a lamb that has been slain per the book of Revelation. Jesus continually intercedes for us. The book of Hebrews tells us about Jesus sacrifice and how it is eternal in nature. The book of Hebrews also says the following:

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, **there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, **but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus sacrifice is eternal, but the application of that sacrifice no longer remains for those that sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Those are the clear words of scripture, and they are a clear warning to the Hebrew converts to whom the letter is addressed. Likewise, they are a warning to us as members of the NT covenant for we too were once non-believers.

I hope this helps.

 

[fbl9]

When it it gets right down the bottom of things catholics actually beleive in osas…for when what we hope for is fulfilled we will be saved and never able again to lose that salvation.

 

[CentralFLJames]

When it it gets right down the bottom of things catholics actually beleive in osas…for when what we hope for is fulfilled we will be saved and never able again to lose that salvation.

Yeah but…

We Catholics believe that God as supreme judge actually gets a final word in on who He has to live with for the duration of eternity. Protestants on the other hand don’t want to trust God with the gavel and want a forensic declaration of salvation or a written guarantee before they invest in taking the plunge of baptism. It’s an ironic sort of rationale where they can trust God to honor the salvation guarantee that they imagine exempts them from all judgement but will not trust God to judge them on their actual deeds and conduct.

The Catholic position asserts that salvation is simultaneously a past, current and future event that is not completed till God judges us saved.

James

 

[JRKH]

When it it gets right down the bottom of things catholics actually beleive in osas…for when what we hope for is fulfilled we will be saved and never able again to lose that salvation.

It’s funny but I was thinking this same thing earlier today.
Once we are saved, that is, Once we have finished the course, and we have kept the faith, then we can look forward with confidence to our "crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day "

Yup - - Once we are saved, we will indeed be saved for all eternity.

Peace
James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Correction: The church does not annul marriages when once gets divorced. Divorce is a civil and secular matter that is not recognized by the Church. Annulment is only possible for those fewer cases where there was not a valid marriage.

Question:
Is professing “I believe” not a work?
Is preaching the bible not a work?
Is conducting altar calls not a work?
Is reciting the sinners prayer not a work?
Is tithing not a work?
Is reading scripture not a work?
Is the “ACTS of the Apostles” not a work?
Is debate and arguing one’s faith and apologetics not a point?

What is YOUR POINT and why are you debating if you are already saved???

James

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, i am not debating just stating what i believe.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Thats not what I said. I said:

We want to hear YOUR words. Anyone can use Scripture to make it appear to say what they want it to say.

my words could get easily debunked but the word of God will stand til the end of time.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry in Christ,

This thread is about OSAS. You positively assert that OSAS is true. It is therefore your responsibility in a debate to prove it, and it is your responsibility to defend against all of the counter arguments presented against OSAS. For our discussion to be meaningful and productive, you really need to take our challenges head on. If the doctrine is sound then it will withstand the test of scrutiny.

IMHO the case for OSAS has not been established on this thread, and the arguments of scripture presented against it have not been refuted.

I appreciate your overall demeanor in the discussion. Please look carefully and objectively at the scriptural points and arguments against OSAS and tackle them head on.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

yes is do, and i have pointed out scripture that says so.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry in Christ,

Here is another area of scripture that contradicts OSAS.

Please note that scripture talks about the names of the saved being written in “The Book of Life.” In Revelation 13:8 we read,

Now, take note that the names written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain are the names of the saved and they have been written in the book since before the foundation of the world. Not everybody’s name is written in the book of life. Moreover, it’s pretty clear from scripture that some people’s names couldn’t be written in the book of life because they never believed in Jesus as their Savior.

According to scripture a person’s name can be in the book of life, but once there that it can also be blotted out. This is evidenced by Revelation 3:4-5 where it says,

This is also evidenced in Psalm 69:28 where it says,

Now, if a person’s name is in the book of life they are saved. If their name is blotted out they have lost their salvation. Note, they are saved and then they are no longer saved. Once again, “once saved always saved” doesn’t meet the scriptural test.

Here is some more evidence from the OT.

The threat of being blotted out of the “Book of Life” is quite clear in the book of Revelation.

In a final warning Jesus tells us in Rev 22:18-19,

Please take note that Jesus is talking about heaven, and that if anyone adds or subtracts to the words of this book God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city. In other words that person was saved but has now lost that salvation. There share in the tree of life and in the holy city will be taken from them. They have lost their salvation.

“Once Saved always Saved?” Not a chance!

One thing I should have mentioned but did not. The portion of the quote that says, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. is translated in the King James version as, "God shall take away his part out of the book of life,"

Could it be more clear than this? Obviously, you can lose your salvation.

I hope this gives you food for thought.

God bless.

AMEN! you are correct in the scripture you chose here and thank God for Jesus Christ:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[rinnie]

AMEN! you are correct in the scripture you chose here and thank God for Jesus Christ:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You are correct Jerry, but you must also STRIVE to live in righteousness in this world to be judged according to your deeds in this world to get in. Faith without works is fruitless, Everyone sins, no one is dead to sins in this world, only Christ himself and his Mother were sinless. That is why he left us the sacraments to bring us back and cleanse us from our sins in this world. Unless you believe that just because Jesus died on the cross and we believe that because of that grace that was given to us we don’t sin anymore. Which is just plain silly. Why did Jesus give the apostles the right to forgive sin, why did he leave them to us at all if we didn’t need them. Why did he leave us the Church if we are already saved. Why would we pray? Why do we have to hear his word and live it, what would be our ultimate goal. Eternal happiness? According to your thinking we have got it anyway.

This world is full of sin, and we all do it. Sorry you can deny it all you want, and mislead yourself to think that you don’t if you want. But RC know we sin, and know we must confess that sin by word of mouth just like the bible tells us to be forgiven.

But the best we can do is hope and pray that we will be accepted into heaven, and no one can say one way or another. To do that would be to play God, and no one knows how he is going to judge us. Only he knows a mans heart and soul and only he can make the call.

To me to say you know you are saved, means you have said that Jesus does not judge us, we judge ourself. If that is true what is judgement day all about then. And who are the sheep and the goats? And why are we judged at all? Does not make sense does it?

Sorry, Just because by the blood of Christ he made it possible for us to be forgiven, we still must do works, and that is repent and follow the ten commandments. Yes Jesus did it all, (by making it possible) but I will never say that I KNOW I am saved. I will be like Paul and struggle daily to live on the right path of my Lord. With fear, just like Paul for I like Paul also am aware of the evil path we could turn to any time and anyday. I like Paul know that God gave us Grace to do the right thing, but also gave us free will to turn away from that grace also and sin! And I know that there are times I sin, I will never live in denial of my sin, I will repent and be cleaned on this earth, and pray for the grace to keep free from it. But never deny that I fall into it at times.

 

[JustaServant]

Jerry, not trying to be difficult. Honest.
The topic is “once SAVED, always SAVED”, past tense.
Would you please answer the question?

Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

The verse in this last week’s 2nd church readings annihilates OSAS.

John addresses us as if he is our father (e.g. my children) and tells us that we should not commit sin but if we do we have an advocate - we may be forgiven. But the only way to have assurances of salvation is to keep His commandments. But the person who claims Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior and DOES NOT keep his commandments is a LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM. Whereas the one who keeps His commandments perfects himself and can have the assurance of salvation. If OSAS was true it would be impossible to sin at all while proclaiming Christ as Lord and in such a case John would have no reason to be warning us not to sin and to perfect ourselves.

***1 Jn 2:1-5a ***

My children, I am writing this to you
so that you may not commit sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous one.
He is expiation for our sins,
and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep
his commandments.
Those who say, “I know him,” but do not keep his commandments
are liars, and the truth is not in them.
But whoever keeps his word,
the love of God is truly perfected in him.

OSAS is a lie and those who teach it SIN and do not have the truth in them.

James

james my friend exactly what commandments are we to keep?

what some seem to misunderstand is that we (osas) think we can sin whenever we want and that is an false accusation. james this verse that you have quoted i’ve referred to it before.

if i proclaim to be a Christian and still live in darkness then i am not a Christian, i would be under a false sense of conversion. in the verse above that you quote does not say that we won’t sin but rather that we ‘may not commit sin,’ but if we do sin we have an advocate.’

so the question is: what commandments?

i’ve quoted them on here before and like it says above, ‘The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments.’

so if i claim to know Christ and i want to be ‘sure’, i examine myself to see if i am in the faith. do i keep His commandment? yes.

do i sin? yes.

am i saved? yes.

don’t get confused with my statements my brother, everyday i am being sanctified by His word as all who seek Him daily.

what are the commandments?

john tells us later on in this great letter which tells how we can have live a life of love and joy. how we can have fellowship with Christ and others.

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

james my friend exactly what commandments are we to keep?

Every single one of them - especially the ones telling us that we must repent AND Love God and Neighbor. We must also respect the apostolic authority and show mercy to all and forgive the sins of others if we desire to be forgiven ourselves. We are to avoid all sin and seek perfection and holiness as our heavenly father is holy and perfect. We are to be charitable especially to the widows, orphans and down trodden. We are to obey all the commandments of God that He wrote on our heart as well as those that were originally given to the Jews. Having faith in and believing in Jesus means believing and obeying every single thing he taught – including respecting His Church and his chosen apostolic leaders and successors until all the world is taught the one faith and Jesus returns to claim His Kingdom and give Justice - rewards and punishments.

James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry, not trying to be difficult. Honest.
The topic is “once SAVED, always SAVED”, past tense.
Would you please answer the question?

Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. I do not accept testimony from a human being, but I say this so that you may be saved. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord, and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord. There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.

What must I do to be saved?

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved. How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.

But what does it say?

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Do you believe?

God bless.

 

[JustaServant]

sigh
This is why I see no point in jumping into ‘debates’ like this because they are not debates. Questions are not answered, pontificating and prosleytizing is the only objective.
Enjoy the merry-go-round.

 

[rinnie]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. I do not accept testimony from a human being, but I say this so that you may be saved. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord, and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord. There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.

What must I do to be saved?

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved. How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.

But what does it say?

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Do you believe?

God bless.

You are quite correct Jerry, and those are the words of our Lord. And so you need to understand those words that you wrote. You said the key word so that we MIGHT be justified. Yes God gave us the grace but do we accept it, and if we accept it, we must use it, and if we use it, it takes works, not just faith! So yes you are correct Jesus did pour into us the Holy Spirit that we MIGHT be justified. And you are correct you are being saved IF YOU HOLD FAST to the word preached to you. Not you are guaranteed because you have faith you must hold fast. And how do you do that, like I told you before it grace that we get faith, and its because of faith that we do works. And its because of these works that we do the will of our Father. NO OTHER WAY! You cannot just have the faith (knowledge) to do something that needs be done and be saved. You must do the Work. Every scripture you have preached prooves that. You just refuse to see it. Go back and read what you just preached. Faith without works is fruitless.

Read your last sentence through it you are BEING SAVED. Just like St Paul said you work through you salvation. With the help of the grace that was made possible by the cross. Why do you say that through it we are being saved IF you hold fast, if you don’t believe it. Everthing you preached is the truth, but its quite the opposite to the point you trying to say. What you are saying scripture says, and what it says do not add up. If we are being saved how can we be saved then already?

 

[rinnie]

You are quite correct Jerry, and those are the words of our Lord. And so you need to understand those words that you wrote. You said the key word so that we MIGHT be justified. Yes God gave us the grace but do we accept it, and if we accept it, we must use it, and if we use it, it takes works, not just faith! So yes you are correct Jesus did pour into us the Holy Spirit that we MIGHT be justified. And you are correct you are being saved IF YOU HOLD FAST to the word preached to you. Not you are guaranteed because you have faith you must hold fast. And how do you do that, like I told you before it grace that we get faith, and its because of faith that we do works. And its because of these works that we do the will of our Father. NO OTHER WAY! You cannot just have the faith (knowledge) to do something that needs be done and be saved. You must do the Work. Every scripture you have preached prooves that. You just refuse to see it. Go back and read what you just preached. Faith without works is fruitless.

Like you said your last sentence through it you are BEING saved. Not you are already saved. Like St Paul said it is a work in progress. BEING SAVED!

 

[rinnie]

Now here is something I don’t understand Jerry. You say whoever believes in me and is Baptised is saved by the blood of Christ. No one here deny’s that. But why do you believe one part of scripture and deny another.

Do you believe that we are put here to do God’s works. Or do you think that we are put here to believe that we are here to do God’s works.

Or do you believe that we are put here to do nothing, but believe that Jesus died for our sin’s. No works needed, no repenting (works) No praying (works).

How about loving one another is that a work’s. Do we have to love one another? Or do we have to want to love one another, even if we don’t. Because thats what I am hearing from you? Maybe you can explain it to me. I know scripture, so one quote after another does not cut it. Its what teaching you come away with the scripture that counts.