OSAS

[sodak]

if i proclaim to be a Christian and still live in darkness then i am not a Christian, i would be under a false sense of conversion.

so if i claim to know Christ and i want to be ‘sure’, i examine myself to see if i am in the faith. do i keep His commandment? yes.

do i sin? yes.

am i saved? yes.

So if someone proclaims to be a Christian (and in their heart believes it), but then falls back into darkness (bad habits, bad environment, whatever), they’re not saved. You, however, because you continue to proclaim Christ are saved, even though you sin (as do we all).

What’s the dividing line? Is there a certain number or type of sin? I’ve seen lots of people get all emotional during altar calls, and fervently believe that they are saved, but then slip. Some slip more than others.

How do you know which camp you are in?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

So if someone proclaims to be a Christian (and in their heart believes it), but then falls back into darkness (bad habits, bad environment, whatever), they’re not saved. You, however, because you continue to proclaim Christ are saved, even though you sin (as do we all).

What’s the dividing line? Is there a certain number or type of sin? I’ve seen lots of people get all emotional during altar calls, and fervently believe that they are saved, but then slip. Some slip more than others.

How do you know which camp you are in?

repentance my brother without it what good is your faith. a true Christian will not continue to live: let’s say a life of an adulterer, there has to be a change. do we sin? yes. if there is no conviction of the sin then there is a problem but you all state is that we can lose our salvation if you truly believe and if one walks away then that person wasn’t of the faith to begin with. don’t argue with me on that take it up with God.

Matthew 13:3 "A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep, 6 and when the sun rose it was scorched, and it withered for lack of roots. 7 Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it. 8 But some seed fell on rich soil, and produced fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.

so if one is a Christian one should have evidence of the fruit of the Spirit.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

let the floor dry before you slip.

God bless you.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jerry we are going around in circles here.

Rather than get wrapped around he axle on semantics of “saved” can you tell us if you believe in double predestiny? Does God destine some to go to heaven and some to go to hell?

Catholics reject this idea.

James

 

[Philthy]

Jerry Marino;:

a true Christian will not continue to live: let’s say a life of an adulterer, there has to be a change… and if one walks away then that person wasn’t of the faith to begin with.

At best, its a pointless distinction to make Jerry. And it only serves to confirm the uselessness of the OSAS doctrine. If the determination of not being a true Christian cannot be made until one has persevered to the end in not “walking away” then one simply doesn’t know beforehand whether they are a “true Christian” (whatever that means). Perhaps God knows our faith apart from our works, but we certainly dont and to claim otherwise - apart from personal, specific divine revelation - is simply wishful thinking.
Im not even convinced that you truly understand some of the very basics of OSAS.
Jerry Marino:

God bless you.

And you as well!

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry we are going around in circles here.

Rather than get wrapped around he axle on semantics of “saved” can you tell us if you believe in double predestiny? Does God destine some to go to heaven and some to go to hell?

Catholics reject this idea.

James

never heard of the term, ‘double pre destiny’ so i guess not.

no, God wants all to be saved, unfortunately not all want to be saved.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

At best, its a pointless distinction to make Jerry. And it only serves to confirm the uselessness of the OSAS doctrine. If the determination of not being a true Christian cannot be made until one has persevered to the end in not “walking away” then one simply doesn’t know beforehand whether they are a “true Christian” (whatever that means). Perhaps God knows our faith apart from our works, but we certainly dont and to claim otherwise - apart from personal, specific divine revelation - is simply wishful thinking.
Im not even convinced that you truly understand some of the very basics of OSAS.

And you as well!

wow, don’t you know if you believe that Christ died for you on the cross? do you believe that He died for you on the cross?

**John 11:21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 (But) even now I know that whatever you ask of God, God will give you.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise.”

24 Martha said to him, “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.”

25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who is coming into the world.”**

do you believe?

it is not a trick question philthy nor do i try to twist Scripture like some might think, it is here in verse 25 and 26. Jesus does not say if you believe and so and so…or you might be resurrected if you do this or that. He says if you believe in Him, even if you die, you will live and if you live and believe in Him you will never die, what a promise! now He asks you, yes you, do you believe this?

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

what is salvation?

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.”

Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, “Who then can be saved?”

what are we saved from?

How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. For God did not destine us for wrath, but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

who does the saving?

These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed. But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

how does God save?

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by His life. In Him we have redemption by His blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of His grace that He lavished upon us. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.

how does one receive salvation?

In Him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of His glory. For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away, and that the Lord may grant you times of refreshment and send you the Messiah already appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the times of universal restoration of which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone, and is dependant on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.

JOHN 14:6 "I AM THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE."

God bless you

 

[Pax]

…
…

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

let the floor dry before you slip.

God bless you.

Jerry in Christ,

I refuted the use of this passage in post #140. You have not answered that post so I am going to answer it again here:

OSAS believers depend heavily on 1 John 2:19 which says:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

Please be advised that this verse does not support OSAS. This verse was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

1 John 2:18-25
“Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

This passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means “remain(s)” and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life.

This passage is a denial of OSAS and in no way supports it.

I hope this helps.

 

[Randy_Carson]

… And Yet Another short but Ironclad refutation of OSAS by Catholic Apologist John Martignoni. Protestants should really love John Martignoni since he is from the deep south (complete with accent) and is a pure scripture-only Catholic apologist. His website has a great collection of tools and videos etc. to understand the Catholic Faith by “scripture alone” (website: biblechristiansociety.com).

John Martagnoni’s line of reasoning for debunking OSAS is as follows:
When confronted with someone who believes in OSAS, the first question you need to ask is this: “If a baby dies, does it go to Heaven or Hell?” The majority of Protestants that I’ve come across who believe in OSAS, also believe that children who die before they are old enough to commit a sin, are saved – they go to Heaven. Even though the baby hasn’t been able to make a confession of faith, that baby still goes to Heaven. This belief, however, leads to a logical contradiction.

*Consider that if a baby dies, and it goes to Heaven, then that means the baby was, in essence, “saved” while it was still alive. **However, if that child does not die, if the baby grows up and starts committing sins, yet never makes a personal commitment to Christ, never accepts Jesus into his heart as his personal Lord and Savior, then what happens? Is he still saved? The Protestant answer is: “No.” Which means that there was a point somewhere in that child’s life where it went from being saved, to being unsaved. ***

But this is a big problem if OSAS is true. This [OSAS] doctrine teaches that a person cannot go from the state of being saved to the state of being unsaved. Which means, if the baby was saved, then he can never be unsaved, even if he grows up to be an unbelieving moral reprobate. Yet, no believer in OSAS would agree that an unbelieving moral reprobate is saved. So for those folks who believe in OSAS, yet also believe that babies that die go to Heaven, there is a logical contradiction in their beliefs.

*There are only two ways around this problem: 1) To say that once saved always saved is true only after you have professed a belief in Jesus Christ, or 2) To say that babies who die before they are able to make a profession of faith automatically go to Hell. *

The first line of reasoning is simply a position that one would back into out of necessity so as to avoid the contradiction in logic that has been exposed in their beliefs. “Uhmm, oh yeah, I forgot to mention that once saved always saved doesn’t kick in until after you make a profession of faith in Christ.” Oh, really? And where does it say that in the Bible? And how does that make any sense whatsoever? Is being saved as a baby somehow different than being saved as an adult? What a ridiculous notion. Either you’re saved or you’re not. And if you are saved, and once saved always saved is true, then if you’re saved as a baby you have to be saved as an adult – whether you ever profess faith in Christ or not. After all, you cannot lose your salvation.

From my perspective, given John’s line of reasoning OSAS advocates persisting in this nonsence must then also annihilate sola-fide since we just showed a clear case where a person can be saved without sola fide (e.g. by faith alone).

James

James-

I recently posted similar content based on Martignoni’s argument, but I do feel there may be a flaw in this line of reasoning; namely, the age of reason or culpability?

If Catholics believe there is an age of reason below which children cannot sin and above which they can, wouldn’t it be fair to allow evangelicals to say that below a certain age, a child may be assured of heaven (as Catholics may believe) and above which the child must accept Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior?

Sauce for the goose and all that…thoughts?

 

[Philthy]

wow, don’t you know if you believe that Christ died for you on the cross? do you believe that He died for you on the cross?

God bless

Wow. We’re up to over 285 posts and you still dont know what OSAS means? Pretty pathetic!

 

[Philthy]

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life.

This passage is a denial of OSAS and in no way supports it.
I hope this helps.

Hi Pax!

Excellent commentary - thank you. Unfortunately Jerry doesnt seem to be able differentiate being in a state of grace at this point in ones life (presently saved) and being judged to inherit the kindom of God at the end of ones life. The concept of remaining in the true teachings ( and avoiding false teachings) in order to remain faithful and receive eternal life ties in perfectly with Christs definition of what eternal life is:

John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

 

[Philthy]

James-

I recently posted similar content based on Martignoni’s argument, but I do feel there may be a flaw in this line of reasoning; namely, the age of reason or culpability?

If Catholics believe there is an age of reason below which children cannot sin and above which they can, wouldn’t it be fair to allow evangelicals to say that below a certain age, a child may be assured of heaven (as Catholics may believe) and above which the child must accept Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior?

Sauce for the goose and all that…thoughts?

A number of things to consider Randy.
First, we would have to consider why those under the age of reason are in a state of grace. I personally dont think it matters because, as Martignoni points out, those same individuals transition from a state of grace to a state of condemnation through the commission of sin. Why would it be any different for them to be able to “fall from grace” than it is for saved sinner to “fall from grace” through the commission of sin?
Part of the entire argument for the OSAS team is the “eternal” nature of salvation. Meaning that “eternal” life is everlasting and cannot be finite in duration. Yet the possibility that an infant - who they would like to claim is born into eternal life - can later, at the age of accountability, choose sin over God and thereby merit condemnation simply reaffirms that although eternal life is eternal, our participation in it is not eternal until we complete our earthly lives.
In a somewhat unrelated way our Prostestant brethren who embrace the “infants are saved” are gonna have to modify their staunh support of Romans 3:23 “all have sinned”.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

When one first comes to repentance and trust Christ for their salvation, one is sealed: by God, in baptism; first installment: down payment by God on full salvation.

In Him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of His glory. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.

i was called and justified and will be glorified my friends. God gave me eternal life with a promise of never perishing, no one can snatch me out of His hand for it is He who holds on to me not i to Him.

you all are under the misconception of my security that i think i can sin but on the contrary, i can live any kind of life i wish but as a Christian i choose to live a life of obedience not to gain salvation but to honor Him who has saved me. you guys seem to think that by the way you live that you will gain salvation or keep salvation which is a false understanding of what God’s grace is: a gift.

to simply put it, i did not do anything to earn my salvation therefore there is nothing i can do to keep it. what i did was repent and trust Christ for my salvation. everyday i trust Him to keep me and guide me through this journey of life growing more like Him.

paul writes about keeping the law:

Romans 3:21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

These verses provide a clear statement of Paul’s “gospel,” i.e., the principle of justification by faith in Christ. God has found a means of rescuing humanity from its desperate plight: Paul’s general term for this divine initiative is the righteousness of God (Romans 3:21). Divine mercy declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this not as a result of the law but apart from it (Romans 3:21), and not because of any merit in human beings but through forgiveness of their sins (Romans 3:24), in virtue of the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus for all who believe (Romans 3:22, 24-25). God has manifested his righteousness in the coming of Jesus Christ, whose saving activity inaugurates a new era in human history. usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans3.htm

**Romans 9: 30 What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. 31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. 32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law[o] instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. 33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,

“I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble,
a rock that makes them fall.
But anyone who trusts in him
will never be disgraced.”**

God bless you.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

When one first comes to repentance and trust Christ for their salvation, one is sealed: by God, in baptism; first installment: down payment by God on full salvation.

…
you all are under the misconception of my security that i think i can sin but on the contrary, i can live any kind of life i wish but as a Christian i choose to live a life of obedience not to gain salvation but to honor Him who has saved me. you guys seem to think that by the way you live that you will gain salvation or keep salvation which is a false understanding of what God’s grace is: a gift.

to simply put it, i did not do anything to earn my salvation therefore there is nothing i can do to keep it. what i did was repent and trust Christ for my salvation. everyday i trust Him to keep me and guide me through this journey of life growing more like Him.

God bless you.

Jerry, you are just completely wrong on this. You are just redefining faith. Initial faith is a gift from THE CHURCH. Someone had to introduce you to THE FAITH and that person was already a member of THE CHURCH. THERE IS NO faith SEPARATE from THE CHURCH since it is the BODY of CHRIST. That initial belief was a WORK of FAITH. You are wise to say that you strive to HONOR Christ now that you are a Christian. That honoring is A WORK. It is a conscious desire to avoid SIN DAILY and to REJECT SATAN and ACCEPT CHRIST DAILY. But we all have better days than others since few of us ever are 100% perfect in the faith and never immune to temptation. Concupiscence, a tendency toward sin is our constant companion in this life to keep us humble to imagine we could ever overcome sin without constant vigilance to grace. YOU likely SIN 100’s of times daily - venially - we all do. You just don’t know it since you have never thought that you could sin now that you are ‘saved’ and are not reflecting on this. This is a kind of pride and smugness that BLINDS you to the occasion of SIN and is exactly what is wrong with OSAS. Spreading a FALSE gospel, which OSAS is, is A SIN.

YOU ARE SINNING MY FRIEND in PREACHING OSAS.

Remaining OUTSIDE of Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, and being disobedient to apostolic authority IS A SIN.

You MUST REPENT of SIN. SIN is NOT AUTOMATICALLY expiated by simply believing that one is saved. Further, sins committed after baptism MUST be forgiven. The ONLY way to assure that your grave sins are forgiven is to confess them to an apostolic priest. Yes, small, venial sins can be forgiven at anytime with simple prayer - but grave sins (e.g. presuming upon God’s Mercy [e.g. OSAS], spreading heresies, rejecting Christ’s appointed apostolic leaders, fornicating, lustful thoughts, adultery, slandering others, calumny, murder, aiding/supporting somone have an abortion, divorce, etc.) are all grave matter and lead to rejecting Christ and being damned for it unless one repents and confesses. Repentance is NOT a one time event. One MUST repent for EVERY grave sin each time one commits one. THEN - one MUST be forgiven of that sin - either sacramentally by the authority of an apostolic priest/bishop or by preforming a PERFECT act of contrition (which is IMPOSSIBLE without grace).

NO ONE is saved until God judges them saved my friend. To presume to think you can judge yourself saved in place of God is itself a sin of presumption and a sin of pride.

REPENT - and YOU TO MAY be saved if you choose to stay in God’s grace and obey ALL His commands and FINISH in His grace.

You are embracing a satanic lie to imagine you can not cast off your own salvation at any time and walk in your old way of life. There are 100’s of scripture verses that refute OSAS - you just choose to turn a blind eye to them.

2 Peter 2:12-22
But these [ed: false teachers], like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing [ed: allusion to baptism], returns to wallowing in the mire.”

In other words - it is VERY possible to lose one’s salvation through false teachers and false doctrines. You can try to say “but these were not really saved” and evade it - but that is just a disingenuous word game because YOU CAN NEVER KNOW with 100% certainty that you are saved until you are judged saved. PERIOD.

James

 

[Pax]

A number of things to consider Randy.
First, we would have to consider why those under the age of reason are in a state of grace. I personally dont think it matters because, as Martignoni points out, those same individuals transition from a state of grace to a state of condemnation through the commission of sin. Why would it be any different for them to be able to “fall from grace” than it is for saved sinner to “fall from grace” through the commission of sin?
Part of the entire argument for the OSAS team is the “eternal” nature of salvation. Meaning that “eternal” life is everlasting and cannot be finite in duration. Yet the possibility that an infant - who they would like to claim is born into eternal life - can later, at the age of accountability, choose sin over God and thereby merit condemnation simply reaffirms that although eternal life is eternal, our participation in it is not eternal until we complete our earthly lives.
In a somewhat unrelated way our Prostestant brethren who embrace the “infants are saved” are gonna have to modify their staunh support of Romans 3:23 “all have sinned”.

I agree…moreover, the inconsistencies and logical flaws in OSAS cannot be mitigated by the logical consistency within the Catholic position.

 

[Pax]

When one first comes to repentance and trust Christ for their salvation, one is sealed: by God, in baptism; first installment: down payment by God on full salvation.

In Him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of His glory. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.

i was called and justified and will be glorified my friends. God gave me eternal life with a promise of never perishing, no one can snatch me out of His hand for it is He who holds on to me not i to Him.

you all are under the misconception of my security that i think i can sin but on the contrary, i can live any kind of life i wish but as a Christian i choose to live a life of obedience not to gain salvation but to honor Him who has saved me. you guys seem to think that by the way you live that you will gain salvation or keep salvation which is a false understanding of what God’s grace is: a gift.

to simply put it, i did not do anything to earn my salvation therefore there is nothing i can do to keep it. what i did was repent and trust Christ for my salvation. everyday i trust Him to keep me and guide me through this journey of life growing more like Him.

paul writes about keeping the law:

Romans 3:21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.**

These verses provide a clear statement of Paul’s “gospel,” i.e., the principle of justification by faith in Christ. God has found a means of rescuing humanity from its desperate plight: Paul’s general term for this divine initiative is the righteousness of God (Romans 3:21). Divine mercy declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this not as a result of the law but apart from it (Romans 3:21), and not because of any merit in human beings but through forgiveness of their sins (Romans 3:24), in virtue of the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus for all who believe (Romans 3:22, 24-25). God has manifested his righteousness in the coming of Jesus Christ, whose saving activity inaugurates a new era in human history. usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans3.htm

**Romans 9: 30 What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. 31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. 32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law[o] instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. 33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,

“I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble,
a rock that makes them fall.
But anyone who trusts in him
will never be disgraced.”**

God bless you.

Jerry in Christ,

The Christian does have something to do with his/her salvation. Believing is something you do. Likewise, you can turn from belief to unbelief. If you then remain in unbelief at the time of your death, you will not be saved.

You completely misunderstand the nature of a gift. A gift can be accepted or rejected. Once accepted, a gift can be returned or discarded. The nature of a gift is not to be described in a rigid, fixed, or mandatory terms. To do so would change salvation from a gift to a forced status. This would destroy the gift of free will and the nature of grace.

Please try to think more deeply about the meaning of salvation as a gift. The gift of salvation is still a gift even if there exist requirements such as having faith in our Triune God and Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Your argument creates a false dependency between our being passive objects and salvation. Let’s look at the part that is pure gift and the you will begin to see what I mean.

1. Jesus is the only bridge between man and God. Jesus sacrifice on the cross is a gift to provide our redemption and salvation. Jesus life was not taken from him. Jesus freely layed down his life for us. This was not and cannot be earned by us. Jesus did this and not us. That is the pure and perfect gift of salvation.
2. The gift of faith is unearned. We cannot bring ourselves into a state of belief or lift ourselves out of sin. This requires grace that enables us and propels us forward to belief and freedom from sin.
3. We are free to believe and we are free not to believe. God does not force us. He instead enables us. It is God’s free gift of grace that is the cause of this enabling. Enabling does not include forcing us to accept and believe, otherwise all men would be saved because scripture tells us that God desires that all men come to believe and thus be saved.
4. Requirements such as faith, which is something “we do,” do not compromise the gift. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross remains and grace remains. They are what they are and they remain unchanged. They simply are not applied to me or you if we reject them. We are free to reject them at their first offering and we are free to reject them later. I demonstrated how this played out with Judas and I will give you another scriptural example of this playing out with another biblical figure in my next post.

 

[Pax]

Jerry in Christ,

The story about Simon the Magician is another helpful example in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again, Simon is not described as a believer without root, or a false believer or any other such thing.

We are told in Acts 8:13

“Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.”

The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on of hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying,

“Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you”[Acts 8:20-22].

This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying,

"Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead, it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We learn several things here:

—Simon is a believer and was even baptized.

—Simon is in danger of losing his salvation.

—Peter tells Simon that he must “repent.” He does not accuse Simon of being an “unbeliever.”

—Peter tells Simon to pray to the Lord that he will be forgiven. Telling a non-believer to pray to the Lord for forgiveness would make no sense in this context.

—Simon asks Peter to pray for him so that he “would not perish”. A false believer would not ask a believer to pray for them, and would have no confidence that such prayers would be helpful.

Simon was a believer, but most scholars contend that Simon the Magician lost his salvation or was never saved in the first place. The scripture as explained demonstrates the former but denies the latter. Simon was a believer that lost his salvation.

I hope this helps.

 

[Philthy]

you guys seem to think that by the way you live that you will gain salvation or keep salvation which is a false understanding of what God’s grace is: a gift.

and encourage others to do the same. Now dont get me wrong, it is crucial to trust Him to keep you and guide you, and it is excellent advice, but it is not the whole truth. You are ignoring Christ if you are not *also *actively forgiving others. In order to be saved we must remain in Christ. Christ teaches us that the way we remain united to him is through obeying his commands (act of faith, hope and love). Forgiveness *is *an act of love. Loving others(and God) *is *the commandment of Christ. If we dont obey it, we dont remain united to Him and dont go to Heaven - even if we were saved at some point.
Paul also speaks of the inheritance of the kingdom of God and the necessity of faith and how faith embraces all of Gods creation: Jews and Greeks alike. That is the primary message that Paul spoke of in the sections of Romans that you quoted: the universal nature of the offer of salvation. All great stuff. But Paul had more to say than that. For like the 3rd time I’ll repost this section of 1st Cor where he warns **saved believers **that certain behaviors exclude one from inheriting the kingdom of God:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
I can give, and have given many more examples. You have not honestly addressed these simple unambiguous verses. Why not Jerry? Why do you not address these clear admonitions from Christ and Paul? We know we cant earn salvation, but we also know that certain behaviors so grieve the Holy Spirit that if they are not repented of they can exclude us from inheriting the kindom of God. That is what Christ, Paul, Peter, James and other inspired writers tell us and what our consciences, awakened by the Holy Spirit with Gods law written upon them, tell us.

God bless you.

Thank you Jerry! May God continue to bless and protect you and may you be granted wisdom to hear His voice and follow the footsteps he has provided for you.

 

[rinnie]

Jerry in Christ,

The story about Simon the Magician is another helpful example in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again, Simon is not described as a believer without root, or a false believer or any other such thing.

We are told in Acts 8:13

The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on of hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying,

This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying,

Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead, it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We learn several things here:

—Simon is a believer and was even baptized.

—Simon is in danger of losing his salvation.

—Peter tells Simon that he must “repent.” He does not accuse Simon of being an “unbeliever.”

—Peter tells Simon to pray to the Lord that he will be forgiven. Telling a non-believer to pray to the Lord for forgiveness would make no sense in this context.

—Simon asks Peter to pray for him so that he “would not perish”. A false believer would not ask a believer to pray for them, and would have no confidence that such prayers would be helpful.

Simon was a believer, but most scholars contend that Simon the Magician lost his salvation or was never saved in the first place. The scripture as explained demonstrates the former but denies the latter. Simon was a believer that lost his salvation.

I hope this helps.

Excellent response Pax!

 

[fbl9]

Jerry Marino;5153538:

Weve gone this far and you accuse us of trying to “gain salvation” by our own efforts? Shame on you Jerry. That is a falsehood and you owe us an apology.

I agree. But you havent addressed the fundamental issue that we are dealing with. It’s a different issue Jerry. You still, after 300 posts, dont know what the basic issue at hand is - and that is because you are not listening. Let me help you. The issue is not whether we can “gain salvation” it is not whether we can “earn it” it is not really whether we can “keep” it. The real issue is whether there is anything we can do to lose it, to disinherit ourselves as children of God and lose our inheritance: the kingdom of God. Christ spoke of this; Paul spoke of it; Peter spoke of it; James spoke of it. You are not listening to them either. Christ tells you unambiguously that you must forgive others to be forgiven. You know that you wont go to Heaven without being forgiven, yet rather than admit that in order to be forgiven and enter Heaven you must actually forgive others as Christ commanded you, you apparently satisfy yourself with ambiguities such as this:
and encourage others to do the same. Now dont get me wrong, it is crucial to trust Him to keep you and guide you, and it is excellent advice, but it is not the whole truth. You are ignoring Christ if you are not *also *actively forgiving others. In order to be saved we must remain in Christ. Christ teaches us that the way we remain united to him is through obeying his commands (act of faith, hope and love). Forgiveness *is *an act of love. Loving others(and God) *is *the commandment of Christ. If we dont obey it, we dont remain united to Him and dont go to Heaven - even if we were saved at some point.
Paul also speaks of the inheritance of the kingdom of God and the necessity of faith and how faith embraces all of Gods creation: Jews and Greeks alike. That is the primary message that Paul spoke of in the sections of Romans that you quoted: the universal nature of the offer of salvation. All great stuff. But Paul had more to say than that. For like the 3rd time I’ll repost this section of 1st Cor where he warns **saved believers **that certain behaviors exclude one from inheriting the kingdom of God:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
I can give, and have given many more examples. You have not honestly addressed these simple unambiguous verses. Why not Jerry? Why do you not address these clear admonitions from Christ and Paul? We know we cant earn salvation, but we also know that certain behaviors so grieve the Holy Spirit that if they are not repented of they can exclude us from inheriting the kindom of God. That is what Christ, Paul, Peter, James and other inspired writers tell us and what our consciences, awakened by the Holy Spirit with Gods law written upon them, tell us.
Thank you Jerry! May God continue to bless and protect you and may you be granted wisdom to hear His voice and follow the footsteps he has provided for you.
good post:thumbsup: