Our Father (and stange habits)

[c659smith]

May I ask a question out there?
In the Creed what does the church teach in the section One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?
I think somewhere here you will find the answer.

Should we be strangers?

Was Jesus afraid of touching and healing the sick?

Are we not to pray together at this celebration?

I think this is one area where traditionalist are losing the battle.

I can remember the old ways and at times have challenges adapting but the more I learn about the Bible and my Catholic Faith the more I realize we are going in the right direction.

 

[msproule]

I do not see how any of these are enhanced by holding hands.

c659smith:

In the Creed what does the church teach in the section One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

We are One, even with those on the other side of the world, whose hands we cannot physically hold. It is a spritiual Oneness, not a physical one.

Should we be strangers?

We share a sign of peace with those around us at the appropriate time in the Mass.

Was Jesus afraid of touching and healing the sick?

I myself am not a healer.

Are we not to pray together at this celebration?

We do pray together, holding hands or not.

 

[Mysty101]

Good points on both sides—

We are one body, but also individual parts

Could the eye see anything other than its immediate surrounding without the feet?

 

[c659smith]

to msprole,
Do you not believe you are a healer?

1. Have you never comforted someone during a loss?
2. Have you not fed someone spiritual ?
3. Have you never given someone first aid?
4. Have you never stoked someones forehead or held their hand
   when they were in distress.
   Of course you have healed and cured the sick as God made you
   in the Image and Likeness of himself.

Do not under estimate the powers given to you on this earth to do good or evil to give comfort or to give someone distress and pain.

We are at Mass to be spiritually healed and say so before receiving communion.
Is a touch not better than a hand shake.
Also do not confuse healing with curing. You can heal others in many many ways. I was never a touchy feely type of person and 20 some odd years in the military is proof of that and sometimes I do not hold hands in saying the our father but their are times when I do or my Catholic brother or Sister does and may need this form of human comfort and contact.
(Do not be such a wuss you can wash your hands) only kidding

 

[msproule]

c659smith:

Have you never comforted someone during a loss?
Have you not fed someone spiritual?
Have you never given someone first aid?
Have you never stoked someones forehead or held their hand
when they were in distress.
Of course you have healed and cured the sick as God made you
in the Image and Likeness of himself.

I did not take your statement to mean all of this. In the context, it seemed to me you meant “curing”. My apologies.

We are at Mass to be spiritually healed and say so before receiving communion.
Is a touch not better than a hand shake.

You solidify the point that has been made in other “hand holding” threads. The Sign of Peace is where it is in the liturgy for a reason. The innovation of hand holding during the Our Father not only precedes the Sign of Peace but is arguably a more intimate gesture and lessens the importance of the true Sign of Peace. That is why it is discouraged at this point in the Mass. If any alternative posture for the laity during the Our Father is going to be introduced, most U.S. bishops suggest the Orans position (but not hand holding). They had asked the Vatican for this permission but before a decision came forth, the new GIRM was published.

Besides, a hand shake is a touch. But there is nothing that states that we must shake hands at the Sign of Peace. We can embrace, kiss, whatever we feel is appropriate. I think most people in the U.S. would be uncomfortable doing these more intimate gestures with everybody around them. Likewise with hand holding. Look at the polls on these forums that have been taken on this subject. Most people would rather not do it but they feel compelled to by the hands next to them.

 

[c659smith]

I am of the same agreement with you in the holding of hands at that point in the Mass and thought you did the best argument this time of any other replys as to why this should not be done.
Great way of spitting it out in English.

 

[Mysty101]

c659smith:

I am of the same agreement with you in the holding of hands at that point in the Mass and thought you did the best argument this time of any other replys as to why this should not be done.
Great way of spitting it out in English.

No matter how persuasive is the argument, the bottom line is that it is neither expressly permitted nor forbidden, and there is no posture prescribed. (As another poster (I think OTM) stated-- the silence through 2 GIRM revisions is in itself a statement)

With that premise and the GIRM instrucctions on posture

42…A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants

And the fact that the bishop does have authority to regulate postures & gestures (and he probably does give at least implied approval to his pastors), wouldn’t it seem best to follow in the custom of the community?.

 

[msproule]

Mysty101:

With that premise and the GIRM instrucctions on posture:
42…A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants
And the fact that the bishop does have authority to regulate postures & gestures (and he probably does give at least implied approval to his pastors), wouldn’t it seem best to follow in the custom of the community?.

If GIRM 42 is to be so liberally applied as to say that “if everybody else is doing it, why shouldn’t I”, then why at other times does the GIRM allow for disunity in posture? For example, following Holy Communion, we are allowed to kneel, sit, or stand. We do not all need to do the same thing, and it is expressly written as so. These explicit directions seem to contradict paragraph 42.

I have seen the same reference to 42 (wrongfully) applied elsewhere; one local parish stands throughout the entire Eucharistic Prayer and when I questioned it I was told to do as everyone else because “it might cause confusion” otherwise. But in the end, isn’t unity within the parish less important than unity within the Church?

In the case of hand holding, I have never argued that there *is *a prescribed posture for the faithful. In the absence of such direction, we are given the responsibility to apply logic and common sense to determine what is best. In my opinion, the most compelling arguments come from those who oppose holding hands.

 

[Mysty101]

msproule:

In the case of hand holding, I have never argued that there *is *a prescribed posture for the faithful. In the absence of such direction, we are given the responsibility to apply logic and common sense to determine what is best. In my opinion, the most compelling arguments come from those who oppose holding hands.

As has been said, the Vatican did not feel this of enough importance to address. I never said that I felt anyone should hold hands, just that it is not forbidden (and not as much hand-holding as the orans posture)

In the absense of a specific direction, I do feel the directions given call for the congregation to ast as one. (Unless it is an abusive or irreverent situation) If you stand out, you are more an individual than part of the Body of Christ. I am not for or against anything more than conforming to the congregation. This is how I see the Spirit of public community worship.(which would be the Mass, sacraments & LOTH)

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

No matter how persuasive is the argument, the bottom line is that it is neither expressly permitted nor forbidden, and there is no posture prescribed. (As another poster (I think OTM) stated-- the silence through 2 GIRM revisions is in itself a statement).

You are absolutely wrong.
Other documents have told us what postures may be used by the laity. I have posted them before and would be pleased to do so again. Being that they were addressed in prior documents, the GIRM has no need to mention them again. If you close your eyes to the previous documents, you are against the Vatican.
Unless YOUR Bishop, as in Cleveland are encouraging the orans to replace the hand holding, YOU are NOT allowed to encourage that innovation IN THE HOLY MASS. If you are in a Diocese such as Charlotte, NC, where they discourage the Orans and hand holding, you are disobeying your Bishop.

And the fact that the bishop does have authority to regulate postures & gestures (and he probably does give at least implied approval to his pastors), wouldn’t it seem best to follow in the custom of the community?.

No, and it’s not your call anyway.
In speaking with my Uncle this weekend, everything that I have been saying is correct. I am now going to research on those documents to read each one.
Also it was stated that YOUR use of the words uncharitable and other names that you called ME (even if MY words were wrong) was extremely unChristian of you.
I am to give you one chance for an apology.