Our school is imposing the rosary

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hansard said:
I have no problem with Catholic schools doing Catholic things:

What I have a problem with is forcing children to say a repetitive prayer (counted off on the beads, of course - we wouldn’t want to count incorrectly) when they could be offered the opportunity to make a more personal, meaningful prayer. …

If Marian Devotion is not required of the faithful (beyond the main dogmatic statements which are more recognition than devotion), and if praying the Rosary is not required, I won’t be inclined to enforce this. …

Surely a carefully considered prayer is of more personal and spiritual value than a dull, repetitive, forced prayer.

(NOTE: I have nothing against those with a devotion to Mary. I admire and respect that. It’s not for me, that’s all.)
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Hansard, It’s not “protestant” of you to point out that Marian prayer devotion is not required by our faith. Many people don’t engage in it. The Holy Spirit’s present path for your spiritual journey may be taking you nowhere near Marian devotion at this time. (The time wasn’t right for me until I was in my forties. Up until then, I had not interest.)

But don’t be so judge-y, which is probably what got so many folks riled up to post replies. You may think individual prayer “is of more personal and spiritual value” than what you deem to be a “dull, repetitive” prayer, but there isn’t anything “sure” about it; the value of the prayer is for God to judge. That wonderfully individual prayer may be over a trivial matter, while the repetitive prayer may be the means someone uses to meditate on the things God has done through his Son and Mary on earth, or opens the door to such meditation for a school child.

Hansard, I agree with your concerns about trying to “force” a faith experience. I remember not wanting to be made to wear a black armband to school mass on the anniversary of the Roe v Wade decision, because I felt I was being used as a political tool. I also did not like May Crowning ceremonies; they seemed silly and seemed pagan to me. I cringed at fifth grade confirmation because it was supposed to show you were an adult in the faith and, at 12, I questioned that I was an “adult” in any sense. (I’m glad that the Holy Spirit did not cringe back at me!) And don’t get me started on St. Blasé throat blessings (although I participated in the end, because I got sore throats a lot as a child.)

That being said, there is a Catholic culture of faith rich in many traditions which is part of the education “package” parents expect Catholic schools to provide. They want their kids to be “Catholically” culturally-literate. If I were spending that tuition money, in addition to required spiritual matters such as Mass and the Lords Prayer, I would want my kids to learn and be competent with popular Catholic devotions such as the rosary and the Sacred Heart devotion.

Christians come together to pray and it’s not always going to be in the form I individually would have chosen. A Catholic school student can join in with the group prayers, be they the rosary or other prayers, because doing so reinforces the Bible teaching that where two or more are gathered in the Lord’s name He is there, even if someone else is leading the prayer not in the way or words the student herself would have chosen.

I am unclear from your post if you are on the school staff or if you are a parent. If I could have talked to a teacher about the devotions I didn’t want to do described above, it would have helped me if the teacher could have just explained to me that there was a “learning experience” value involved, and they could pray in my own words silently.
 
I worry more that the OP is a teacher who does not know how to spell the word “practice”. Now wear did my spelchekker go two?
 
JimG said:
I understand, but the school is not asking the teachers to lead the children in the LOTH; it’s asking them to lead a rosary. I don’t know how the school feels about teachers disregarding something that has been asked of them with respect to the religious education of children in a Catholic school. The OP describes himself as: “disengaged Catholic, nihilist, solipsist, and sceptic,” so perhaps there is a conflict of interest with his job.
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If you read my post again, I think you just might find that I did not say anything about the school, or the OP teaching the LOTH. I simply showed that it fits my spirituality better than the rosary does. Let’s not take something said for one purpose and attempt to turn it elsewhere.
 
otjm said:
If you read my post again, I think you just might find that I did not say anything about the school, or the OP teaching the LOTH. I simply showed that it fits my spirituality better than the rosary does. Let’s not take something said for one purpose and attempt to turn it elsewhere.
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Yes, you’re right;, you were speaking of you own spiritual experience, not that of anyone else. I meant simply to make the observation that children are probably not yet in a position to appreciate the liturgy of the hours, but they can learn other forms of Catholic spirituality, in particular simple communal prayer such as the rosary. My other point is that if the teacher was indeed asked to lead the rosary as a communal prayer, he is disregarding the instructions given to the teachers. But I do not know the details of what was expected.
 
JimG said:
Yes, you’re right;, you were speaking of you own spiritual experience, not that of anyone else. I meant simply to make the observation that children are probably not yet in a position to appreciate the liturgy of the hours, but they can learn other forms of Catholic spirituality, in particular simple communal prayer such as the rosary. My other point is that if the teacher was indeed asked to lead the rosary as a communal prayer, he is disregarding the instructions given to the teachers. But I do not know the details of what was expected.
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I would agree that young children may not be much impressed with it, but somewhere around 6th grade or so, they are capable of appreciating it - after all, it is a shorter liturgy than the Mass, and they can appreciate the Mass. Don’t sell kids short. They continually surprise me.

As to where the OP is going, after 213 posts I suspect he is going elsewhere… this has sort of become a communal conversation. He obviously felt somewhat comfortable coming here to discuss the matter. He is a teacher, and if the school wants to “impose” certain requirements, ultimately that is between him and the school. It is entirely possible the whole matter is overstated.

In any event, I think some of what we need to do is take people where they are at, not where we think they need to be, and try to understand why they be at that certain place. It is hard to get someone to move off a position when we do not take the time to actually listen carefully. And the internet is not the best place to listen - except maybe Pandora.
 
I would hope that more Catholic schools would ‘impose’ the Rosary. The ones that need it the most are the liberal ‘spirit of Vatican II’ schools that are catholic in name only.
 
To all of you who are against in any way the saying of the Holy Rosary whether by children or adults, may our dear Lord have mercy on your souls. May our dear Mother enlighten your minds and intercede for you because you are insulting the Catholic faith. Read about the apparitions of the Blessed Mother and the lives of the saints and you will realize how wrong you are.
 
hansard said:
All of you, please answer this: is Marian Devotion required of the faithful or not? Not just “highly recommended” or any other do-nothing expression. Is it required of the faithful?
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No, Marian devotion is not required of the faithful. It is encouraged.
 
I would not call it a forced prayer…

Maybe a forced meditation session…*

What could be wrong with that? Alot of kids have to be forced to do things… learning the Rosary is not going to hurt them…

Plus they have the option to just sit by quietly and learn to respect the fact that others want to learn/say the Rosary. This I feel is a huge plus.

*I see the Rosary more of a meditation rather than a prayer itself, but does contain prayers.
 
bedan_elite said:
To all of you who are against in any way the saying of the Holy Rosary whether by children or adults, may our dear Lord have mercy on your souls. May our dear Mother enlighten your minds and intercede for you because you are insulting the Catholic faith. Read about the apparitions of the Blessed Mother and the lives of the saints and you will realize how wrong you are.
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Having read this thread, I did not particularly see anyone who “[is] against in any way the saying of the Holy Rosary…”

The Rosary is the most popular devotion in the Roman rite, hands down. And it is just that - a popular devotion. It is not an official liturgy of the Church. As such, it is entirely voluntary. Many, many (indeed, a multitude of) Catholics say the rosary and take great comfort in it. Some don’t know it, or don’t know it very well. Some struggle with it because of personal issues (ADD and ADHD being among them). Some have had negative experiences of saying it.

It seems, as it is purely voluntary, that the issue of mercy is perhaps misplaced, as mercy is most often referred to in terms of sin and the resulting justice being applied; with mercy tempering justice or trumping it. As there is no sin, it is hard to say - at least in moral terms - that the word “wrong” is correctly applied.
 
godisgood77 said:
No, Marian devotion is not required of the faithful. It is encouraged.
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“You cannot be Christian without being Marian.” - Blessed Pope Paul VI.

And that is from a pope who is not widely renowned for his Marian devotion. I’m sorry but the popes and saints are unanimous on this point. It is not merely encouraged, it is necessary. Particular expressions of Marian devotion are encouraged (the rosary, novenas, consecrations, etc.). But the very existence of a Marian devotion is necessary.
 
O_Sapientia said:
“You cannot be Christian without being Marian.” - Blessed Pope Paul VI.

And that is from a pope who is not widely renowned for his Marian devotion. I’m sorry but the popes and saints are unanimous on this point. It is not merely encouraged, it is necessary. Particular expressions of Marian devotion are encouraged (the rosary, novenas, consecrations, etc.). But the very existence of a Marian devotion is necessary.
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This is true. ^

She is even mentioned in the Liturgy of the OF … (and the EF of course)

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,

And, striking their breast, they say:
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

The absolution by the Priest follows:
May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.
Amen.

The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
(At the words that follow, up to and including ‘and became man’, all bow.
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

And from Eucharistic Prayer I

…In communion with those whose memory we venerate, especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ, and blessed Joseph, her Spouse, your blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew,… etc

To those who claim we have no obligation for Marian devotion, think about it next time you are at Sunday Mass and you come to this part of the Creed…

(At the words that follow, up to and including ‘and became man’, all bow.
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

Also consider the 3 Holy Days of Obligation devoted to her. Still claim no devotion to her is needed to be Catholic ?

No, the Rosary isn’t an obligation, but there certainly is an amount of Marian devotion necessary to be an orthodox Catholic.
 
it’s a CATHOLIC school. I don’t want my kids saying an islamic prayer or learning protestant doctrines that contradict the church, so I don’t send them to islamic schools or protestant schools. I am a teacher at a catholic school because i did not want to be forced to teach things i did not believe. I do not want to violate my beliefs and that is why I do not teach at a public school anymore and that is why i did not go teach at a muslim or jewish or protestant school.

There’s one simple solution; if you have a problem with the foundational teachings of an institution then do not work for or send your kids to a school that is maintained and run by that institution. I do not think non-catholics shouldn’t go to a catholic school, I’m happy when non-catholics come to our school or teachers join us, however, don’t complain when the catholic school asks you to do or teach catholic ideas.

Finally, a lot of kids don’t like the idea of forced homework but we still assign it anyway because it is good for their development. The same can be said for “forcing” prayer on the kids. It’s a wonderful idea and we need more of it.

god bless, i hope the OP comes to a comfortable resolution in this situation.
 
hansard said:
I have no problem with Catholic schools doing Catholic things: school Masses, retreats, daily prayer, occasional confession opportunities, a general focus on good living, compassion and generosity. We are good at those things, even though few students or staff are actually “Catholic” in the way they practise their faith.

What I have a problem with is forcing children to say a repetitive prayer (counted off on the beads, of course - we wouldn’t want to count incorrectly) when they could be offered the opportunity to make a more personal, meaningful prayer.

For example, when I am required to say a prayer at a meeting, I always ask people to offer quiet prayers of a personal nature. This is in keeping with Matthew 6:6 (“go to your room” etc).

Another concern: if prayers are forced, they can’t be genuine. Therefore, they will not “get through” at all.

If Marian Devotion is not required of the faithful (beyond the main dogmatic statements which are more recognition than devotion), and if praying the Rosary is not required, I won’t be inclined to enforce this.

Surely a carefully considered prayer is of more personal and spiritual value than a dull, repetitive, forced prayer.

(NOTE: I have nothing against those with a devotion to Mary. I admire and respect that. It’s not for me, that’s all.)
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Why are you sending your kids to Catholic school if you don’t want them doing Catholic things like praying the rosary?
 
To the Original Poster:

If you do not want the Rosary imposed on your children - don’t send them to Catholic school.

Catholic schools tend to (or should) teach Catholic prayer in addition to reading, writing, and arithmetic. I am going to assume that you and your children are Catholic, and given your first post I am also going to assume that you would not teach your kids how to pray the Rosary; so apparently they are going to learn it anyway at school. Remember - a CATHOLIC school. At a Catholic school children will likely be ‘forced’ to pray the Rosary as well as be ‘forced’ to learn how to read and write.

I am sure there are excellent public schools in your area if you are THAT uncomfortable with the direction of your childrens’ Catholic education.
 
hansard said:
No, there’s nothing wrong with the Rosary at all, if you pray it willingly.

Forcing children to pray in any form is immoral.

My style is to say something like, “Now, please offer a prayer for something or someone, or just to offer thanks to God. If you don’t want to pray, please think about how you might do something to help someone today.”

Now, I’m not presenting myself as a prayer guru, but how is the Rosary any better than this?

Here’s how it will play out, I think:

Scenario 1: Children pray the Rosary willingly and with good intentions. I have no problem with this.
**Scenario 2: **Children recite prayers, unwillingly and by rote, and forget the experience immediately. Point? None.
Scenario 3: Children willingly offer prayers for something personal and significant. If they choose not to pray, they might reflect on their lives and behaviour.
Scenario 4: Children don’t reflect on anything, and just sit there.

Under no scenario above is it my business to impose a form of spirituality on them; I can only encourage and provide the “space” for them to do it.

It’s a personal journey and I have no more insight than they do.
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The Rosary is a practice. Catholicism–and indeed any religion–is made up of practices. A Catholic school can be expected to instill the practices of the Catholic religion. I don’t see the problem here.

Extempore prayer is also a practice. It’s a fine practice–an evangelical one that I wish more Catholics would take up (and I’m happy that they are). But it isn’t higher or more spiritual than a traditional prayer like the Rosary.
 
hansard said:
So, you all agree that insincere prayers are valid
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No. But “sincere” doesn’t mean “what I happen to feel like at the moment.”
that children should be educated in repetitive prayers
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If they are being educated in a tradition where such prayers are important devotional practices, then of course.
**Joannm: **You obviously missed the point. Being forced to pray is immoral.
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So what would happen to a kid who said, “I am not Catholic and do not wish to pray the Rosary”? Would they be punished in some way?

Edwin
 
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