Our Son refused by the priest.

[jmcrae]

PS. Just for my information, if a person was already a RC, why would they need baptism?

RCIA is much more than just Baptism. There are three Rites; the first, and most famous, is for persons who have never been baptized. The second is for persons who were baptized and raised in a non-Catholic Christian tradition.

The third is for those who were baptized Catholic, but then for whatever reason (typically, a divorce in the family, or less frequently, the family following a nomadic lifestyle that precluded traditional education and regular church attendance) - these last two prepare for First Reconciliation, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion.

 

[TEPO]

It’s called 'prevenient grace" and everyone in RCIA is relying on it - we don’t give the Sacraments to RCIA participants until they have completed three of the four phases of the process.

The Inquiry Process (the first phase) is often lengthened by the need for Declarations of Nullity and Convalidations to take place before moving into structured Catechesis - which assumes that the participant is correctly disposed to receive the graces that are imparted there, even though they are not Sacramental graces.

In other words - yes, we expect people to be doing the right thing, and even receiving grace from God, even before they have received even one Sacrament.

Oh wow, you just taught me something new involving my favorite topic -grace!

So It just occurred to me that there must be two categories of graces.
1). Sanctifying Graces (faith graces)
-and-
2). Actual Graces (works graces)

Prevenient Grace must be the initial grace that precedes the sanctifying graces (the sacraments)… It must be the ability to desire the forgiveness of sin and the desire for the grace of sanctification.

The ability to “act” catholic must be an “actual” grace. One’s ability to put the virtues to work in the real world must also then be an actual grace. Our ability to turn the other cheek is an actual grace. Charity, hope, faith, prudence, Justice, temperance and courage are actual graces.

Graces are always given and never earned. Whether they be sanctifying graces or actual graces. Both categories of graces are salvific. We need both kinds of graces.

Grace and truth go hand in hand… The body of the Church has two hands- both members work equally hard, one on the left and one on the right.

 

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

Hopefully, this won’t sound judgemental. This is just my viewpoint as a woman. There needs to be a secure foundation in your life, no matter what happens with a baptism, etc. This starts with you.

I can’t believe your partner is using that tired old line from the 60’s about marriage just being a piece of paper! We now have groups of people fighting for the right to that “piece of paper”. I am not arguing whether they should have that right, simply saying it is plain to see that little piece of paper is held in high esteem by those who can’t get it. So it certainly should not be taken for granted by those who can get it.

Letting that go as just his belief is allowing him to devalue your worth. Why is it that a man gets down on his knee and asks a woman to be his wife? Because he is hoping she will sign a piece of paper with him? Nope. There is more to it than that and you know it. Don’t let him get away with that BS. If at all possible, and I don’t know if it is at this stage. It is often said, “Men want what they can’t have.”

 

[Lapey]

Here we go again, the RC doctrine! When Jesus was baptised was he a RC, no!

PS. Just for my information, if a person was already a RC, why would they need baptism?

RCIA is much more than just Baptism. There are three Rites; the first, and most famous, is for persons who have never been baptized. The second is for persons who were baptized and raised in a non-Catholic Christian tradition.

The third is for those who were baptized Catholic, but then for whatever reason (typically, a divorce in the family, or less frequently, the family following a nomadic lifestyle that precluded traditional education and regular church attendance) - these last two prepare for First Reconciliation, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion.

I know you probably have no idea what context my question was asked. I think as a deacon who has been through 5 years of formation and a life time as a Catholic I should know what RCIA is and how it works, well, I do.

The question was asked to a poster who was complaining about a RC not being accepted for baptism, therefore my question to that poster was, why would a RC need baptism, he or she has already been baptized.

Thanks anyway though…

 

[Irishgal49]

Keep in mind the OP has no plans to “move to a better place.” She plans on continuing to live with the father of her second child. See, marriage is just a piece of paper. So there isn’t ever any reason to pursue marriage.

And since when it is rude and arrogant to state the truth? The OP is in fact living with the father of her second child. She in fact, did not marry the father of her first child. Although she seems to want both children baptized in the same church, she doesn’t seem to concerned that their fathers are different. That is what the priest said. Do YOU see something different???

Yes I did, I see someone who is beginning to have a desire toward the church being slapped down because her “house isn’t in order”. Of course it’s not. But start somewhere don’t throw her under the bus and say, “come back when it all fixed” help her, begin with the children and move them toward a better place. I had this happen to me. A priest who won’t help but enjoys the company of his fans. I had such a priest…rude, pompous, arrogant, won’t help you, tells you he doesn’t have time for you but has time for his “pets”. My concern is that there is the occasional “nightmare priest from heck” and I’m concerned that it might not be a bad idea just to have her go somewhere and get some advice from someone who isn’t going to say nasty, barbed, remarks but give her constructive advice on how she can fulfill the requirements for baptism and beginning the journey toward home.

What if this man has the ONLY source of income she has? Should she starve in the street? Have any of you actually LIVED in the street? I have…and it’s a miracle if you aren’t dead inside of a week. I was 17 and tossed out by my parents. It’s real easy to shoot off a bunch of comments, but remember, there are children who will be affected here. She needs a caring, loving priest to work with her and if the Catholic Church won’t do it, she can private email me and I know other churches who will. Meet them where they are at and lead them, but a lot of priests just point, act rude, and walk away. Or maybe the 3 priests who did that to me are not the norm—probably not since one resigned after admitting to sexual abuse of a child. I honestly don’t know why I stay…rude priests, judgmental people, but I stay–because Jesus is in the Eucharist and I just accept that I won’t be welcome to the “inner circle” but I will not give orders to someone that could be but in a dangerous situation—we don’t know her boyfriend or her. Putting her children in danger of being homeless or starving may sound romantic and a “step of faith” to you but could be life threatening.

OP: I know clergy in several denominations, if you private message me I can see if I can find someone to actually address your situation instead of “preaching” at you. I do know two very loving priests (they are rare around here) but they really care and they aren’t worried about building a ‘kingdom’ for themselves.

Lorrie

 

[EvelynEVF]

In the priest’s defense, I bet he’s had many, many people approach him for the sacraments and then never darken the door again. He probably feels disrespected, as if people who have no intention of being part of the Body of Christ think he’s just a vending machine. And then kick him if the right thing doesn’t tumble out.

 

[maryjk]

I am a protestant & my partner is a Catholic, he is step father to my son who is 4yrs old an has been since my son was 13months old! My son doesn’t see his Biological father, wouldn’t know him if he passed him in the street! We now have a daughter together & want them both christened, but the priest has refused to christen our son & only our daughter, he’s asked if me or bio dad was catholic, which we are not, and said no then… it’s not the catholic way and handed us a application form for our daughter! I’m really upset about it as its me & my partner who bring up our children not bio dad so does it matter who’s blood he has? Is it really acceptable to leave 1 child out? I thought we would have been welcomed, what has a child done to deserve to be left out. Thanx for reading, & sorry for the essay. X

I would like my children christened because I believe if you are not christened you won’t go to heaven. It’s my partner that wants them to be Catholics as its his family’s tradition! And our boy is supposed to be starting a catholic school in Sept.

I am very surprised at the amount of “perfect” people in this world and how amazin that they all came together in this very thread… obviously myself excluded because I have had children out of wedlock, let god strike me down dead right now if he’s that bothered! I doubt Jesus himself would turn away my child & be so rude & hurtful towards a person! … And didn’t Joseph bring up a child that wasn’t “biologically” his!

Yes I did, I see someone who is beginning to have a desire toward the church being slapped down because her “house isn’t in order”. Of course it’s not. But start somewhere don’t throw her under the bus and say, “come back when it all fixed” help her, begin with the children and move them toward a better place. I had this happen to me. A priest who won’t help but enjoys the company of his fans. I had such a priest…rude, pompous, arrogant, won’t help you, tells you he doesn’t have time for you but has time for his “pets”. My concern is that there is the occasional “nightmare priest from heck” and I’m concerned that it might not be a bad idea just to have her go somewhere and get some advice from someone who isn’t going to say nasty, barbed, remarks but give her constructive advice on how she can fulfill the requirements for baptism and beginning the journey toward home.

And I see someone that didn’t understand what she wants. It doesn’t look like SHE wants her children baptized, but that her partner wants his daughter baptized.

The problem is, neither parent of the son are Catholic. So we have a self proclaimed Protestant asking for a Catholic baptism.

I also see, from you, a lack of any respect for a man that has dedicated his life to serve. Don’t you think he knows more about the situation than you, someone on an internet forum? How incredibly rude you are being to this priest.

What if this man has the ONLY source of income she has? Should she starve in the street? Have any of you actually LIVED in the street? I have…and it’s a miracle if you aren’t dead inside of a week. I was 17 and tossed out by my parents. It’s real easy to shoot off a bunch of comments, but remember, there are children who will be affected here. She needs a caring, loving priest to work with her and if the Catholic Church won’t do it, she can private email me and I know other churches who will. Meet them where they are at and lead them, but a lot of priests just point, act rude, and walk away. Or maybe the 3 priests who did that to me are not the norm—probably not since one resigned after admitting to sexual abuse of a child. I honestly don’t know why I stay…rude priests, judgmental people, but I stay–because Jesus is in the Eucharist and I just accept that I won’t be welcome to the “inner circle” but I will not give orders to someone that could be but in a dangerous situation—we don’t know her boyfriend or her. Putting her children in danger of being homeless or starving may sound romantic and a “step of faith” to you but could be life threatening.

OP: I know clergy in several denominations, if you private message me I can see if I can find someone to actually address your situation instead of “preaching” at you. I do know two very loving priests (they are rare around here) but they really care and they aren’t worried about building a ‘kingdom’ for themselves.

Lorrie

No one is kicking her out. All anyone is telling her, is that there isn’t a way to baptize a child into the Catholic faith when neither parent is Catholic AND the child has little to no chance of being brought up Catholic.

No one is in danger of being homeless. Her son, NOT the child of the person she is currently living with, can not be baptized Catholic. We are not even sure her partner cares if the boy is baptized.

 

[clem456]

No one is kicking her out. All anyone is telling her, is that there isn’t a way to baptize a child into the Catholic faith when neither parent is Catholic AND the child has little to no chance of being brought up Catholic.

No one is in danger of being homeless. Her son, NOT the child of the person she is currently living with, can not be baptized Catholic. We are not even sure her partner cares if the boy is baptized.

Well, yes there is one in danger of being homeless, and not in the temporal sense, but spiritual, the only sense that counts: The child in question
The baptismal doctrines and regulations surely spur a lot of debate!

My niece, who was baptized Catholic, has a child out of wedlock and is a raging lunatic with an equally crazy boyfriend living somwhere else, will have her son baptized this weekend. She has no intentions of raising her son Catholic or assenting to Church doctrines, but there is a priest willing to baptize little Joey. That’s all I care about. We pray that mom finds some common sense.

To the OP, I can sympathize with your child’s plight, but you have little room for complaint, I would suspect you are receiving a needed kick in the arse from the priest. Take it from me, who’s already lived the life you are living and don’t ever want to go back… do your child a favor and straighten yourself out, maybe you won’t have these problems in the future.

 

[figs]

My niece, who was baptized Catholic, has a child out of wedlock and is a raging lunatic with an equally crazy boyfriend living somwhere else, will have her son baptized this weekend. She has no intentions of raising her son Catholic or assenting to Church doctrines, but there is a priest willing to baptize little Joey. That’s all I care about. We pray that mom finds some common sense.

And Joey isn’t the only one to have been baptised under less than perfect conditions. Neither of my parents were Catholic, nor did they ever become Catholic either. My mother stood up for me, I was baptised and went to Catholic school.
Obviously the priest had ‘founded hope’ that I was going to be raised Catholic, since I was going to go to Catholic school.
(I believe one of the OP’s main worries is that her son is suppose to start Catholic school in Sept.)

I have the privilage of being able to work around several fine priests. I happened to ask three of them a hypothetical question that had the same paramiters as the OP. Amazingly enough, they all said they would baptise the boy too, since the mother was willing to stand up for them and since the boy was going to go to Catholic school it gave them reasonable hope that he would be raised in the faith.

You see, no where in the canon law does it state that the parents have to be Catholic. Oh, it would be ideal if they were, don’t get me wrong, but it is not a requirement.

The priest has to have a ‘founded hope’ that the child will be raised in the faith.

As to what the priest said or didn’t say, we’ll never know, but what he is doing on the grounds he is doing them (from the information we’ve been given), with regard to the boy’s baptism, isn’t what canon law says either.

*Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/** the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;**

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

Can. 869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.

§2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.

§3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.*

 

[maryjk]

My niece, who was baptized Catholic, has a child out of wedlock and is a raging lunatic with an equally crazy boyfriend living somwhere else, will have her son baptized this weekend. She has no intentions of raising her son Catholic or assenting to Church doctrines, but there is a priest willing to baptize little Joey. That’s all I care about. We pray that mom finds some common sense.

I have a little Joey in my life. His parents stood up for him. His mom is even Catholic. Of course the Baptism was the last time they took him to church.

Now he is married to a Catholic woman. He still doesn’t attend Mass or believe what the church teaches, but because he was baptized, he is held, according to the Church, to their rules. Remember, being baptized doesn’t make it easier to get into heaven, it makes it harder. All just because his parents wanted the photo op.

And Joey isn’t the only one to have been baptised under less than perfect conditions. Neither of my parents were Catholic, nor did they ever become Catholic either. My mother stood up for me, I was baptised and went to Catholic school.
Obviously the priest had ‘founded hope’ that I was going to be raised Catholic, since I was going to go to Catholic school.
(I believe one of the OP’s main worries is that her son is suppose to start Catholic school in Sept.)

I have the privilage of being able to work around several fine priests. I happened to ask three of them a hypothetical question that had the same paramiters as the OP. Amazingly enough, they all said they would baptise the boy too, since the mother was willing to stand up for them and since the boy was going to go to Catholic school it gave them reasonable hope that he would be raised in the faith.

The problem is that you are giving them only what you see here. For the OP, the priest may know the family. Heck, he may know the OP. And he may know much more about her than she would ever tell here. He is basing his decision on the actual situation. Your priests are basing it on what you are telling them. There is a big difference.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You see, no where in the canon law does it state that the parents have to be Catholic. …The priest has to have a ‘founded hope’ that the child will be raised in the faith.

As to what the priest said or didn’t say, we’ll never know, but what he is doing on the grounds he is doing them (from the information we’ve been given), with regard to the boy’s baptism, isn’t what canon law says either.

You have no grounds for this last sentence. The priest didn’t have a well-founded hope. It doesn’t matter what hypotheticals you raised with other priests. This priest, in this situation, had reason to doubt the particulars – which you are not privy to.

The Chuch entrusts priests to make these practical, real-time decisions with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which is why the canon is written the way it’s written. You presented other priests with a theoretical question, and they gave you a theoretical answer because that’s all they can do without face-to-face encounters which modify and can drastically alter such theoretical answers. Besides which, we only have your word for it in terms of how you phrased the question to these other priests and precisely how they responded, and with what qualifiers they responded (or privately thought).

 

[Durus]

I have to ask you, why is it so important that your son should be baptized but nothing else in your life is of importance where God is concerned?

Probably because, like most parents, she cares deeply about her child. If she actually believes Christianity to be true, she is well aware that without baptism, her child does not have any guarantee’s of getting to heaven.

She must simply trust in the mercy of God that her unbaptized child, should the child perish, gets to heaven.

All that being said, all baptisms are valid in the eyes of the Church, so she just go and get baptized elsewhere.

No?

For the record, all my kids are baptized Catholic and although they go to Catholic school, at home I teach them to think critically about what they’ve learned in religion class and the few times they hear from a Priest at school mandated Mass.

 

[englishredrose]

Probably because, like most parents, she cares deeply about her child. If she actually believes Christianity to be true, she is well aware that without baptism, her child does not have any guarantee’s of getting to heaven.

**Why do you want **to answer the question aimed specifically for the opening poster. You cannot begin to answer for her apart from besides which she has already indicated her answer to this question very early to be honest with you. if you had followed from the beginning you will know why she wants baptism. so what you added was just for the fun of it rather than really bothering to find out what the opening poster had already answered.

She must simply trust in the mercy of God that her unbaptized child, should the child
perish, gets to heaven.

All that being said, all baptisms are valid in the eyes of the Church, so she just go and get baptized elsewhere.

No?

For the record, all my kids are baptized Catholic and although they go to Catholic school, at home I teach them to think critically about what they’ve learned in religion class and the few times they hear from a Priest at school mandated Mass.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Probably because, like most parents, she cares deeply about her child. If she actually believes Christianity to be true, she is well aware that without baptism, her child does not have any guarantee’s of getting to heaven.

I do not believe that all protestant denominations believe that baptism is necessary for entry into Heaven.

Many believe that all one needs to do is accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Baptism is something that one does to show this commitment but is not required. It is also something that many protestants believe may be redone. That is they are baptized many times during their life.

 

[Irishgal49]

In the priest’s defense, I bet he’s had many, many people approach him for the sacraments and then never darken the door again. He probably feels disrespected, as if people who have no intention of being part of the Body of Christ think he’s just a vending machine. And then kick him if the right thing doesn’t tumble out.

If he GENUINELY feels that way, he needs to leave the priesthood immediately.

 

[Irishgal49]

And I see someone that didn’t understand what she wants. It doesn’t look like SHE wants her children baptized, but that her partner wants his daughter baptized.

The problem is, neither parent of the son are Catholic. So we have a self proclaimed Protestant asking for a Catholic baptism.

I also see, from you, a lack of any respect for a man that has dedicated his life to serve. Don’t you think he knows more about the situation than you, someone on an internet forum? How incredibly rude you are being to this priest.

How incredibly rude this priest is to offer baptism to one child and not the other when they both live in the EXACT same circumstances. HE should be ashamed and I’d tell him to his face.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How incredibly rude this priest is to offer baptism to one child and not the other when they both live in the EXACT same circumstances. HE should be ashamed and I’d tell him to his face.

You miss the point. The two children do not live in the EXACT same circumstances.

One child has a Catholic father, the other one does not.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Probably because, like most parents, she cares deeply about her child. If she actually believes Christianity to be true, she is well aware that without baptism, her child does not have any guarantee’s of getting to heaven.

She must simply trust in the mercy of God that her unbaptized child, should the child perish, gets to heaven.

All that being said, all baptisms are valid in the eyes of the Church, so she just go and get baptized elsewhere.

No?

For the record, all my kids are baptized Catholic and although they go to Catholic school, at home I teach them to think critically about what they’ve learned in religion class and the few times they hear from a Priest at school mandated Mass.

Are you saying that baptism GUARANTEES getting to heaven? It doesn’t.

Are you saying that once a child is baptized he or she is good to go and the parent doesn’t trust to the mercy of God that the child will stay in a state of grace or repent of any mortal sins committed since baptism and before death? IOW, that the parent of the baptised and the parent of the unbaptised have EXACTLY THE SAME ‘action’. . .baptism doesn’t give you a ‘get into heaven free card’.

I do hope that in your praiseworthy quest to have your children ‘educated’ that your idea of ‘critical thinking’ doesn’t mean, "Reject what you are told by the priest if it doesn’t agree with you’.

BTW, they ‘only hear from a priest a few times at school mandated Mass?’

UM. . .you DO make sure that they at least meet their obligation to attend Mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation, right?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I do hope that in your praiseworthy quest to have your children ‘educated’ that your idea of ‘critical thinking’ doesn’t mean, "Reject what you are told by the priest if it doesn’t agree with you’.

Tantum, for further insight into this poster’s “critical thinking” process, visit here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9434131&postcount=50

and here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9434659&postcount=60

 

[maryjk]

How incredibly rude this priest is to offer baptism to one child and not the other when they both live in the EXACT same circumstances. HE should be ashamed and I’d tell him to his face.

You miss the point. The two children do not live in the EXACT same circumstances.

One child has a Catholic father, the other one does not.

Thank you, ByzCath.

It seems that many here forget, or maybe didn’t read, that the father of the boy is not the same as the father of the girl.

If something happened to the couple, if they separated, what would happen to children? The girl might spend one weekend with her Protestant mom and the next with her Catholic dad. On the other hand, the boy would spend every weekend with his Protestant mom, where would he get his Catholic upbringing?