T
TaylorDonBarret
Guest
Where exactly do you think I have misrepresented them?
Our willingness to "cooperate" with grace is only by grace. Thus, we are not "synergists."
- Status
J
James248
Guest
That synergy elevates man and destroys humility.
Augustine says, “He who made you without WILL NOT SAVE YOU WITHOUT YOU.”
Paul says, “Working together with God we appeal to you not to receive His grace in vain.”
If you want orthodox teaching, read this:
www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COOPERAT.htm
L
LatinRight
Guest
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**Our Initial Justification/heaven is God’s free gift, merited for us Christ on the cross.
**
**RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin
Quote:** Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).
Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.
The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — **we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification. **
You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.
There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.
One is saved the moment one is initially justified. End quote.
The spiritual position and the ability of and un-regenerated/carnal man to gain Initial Justification.
Rom.8:6-8;
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 cor.2:14;
But the natural man does not receives the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Meaning; man could do NOTHING, to enter the state of justification. – Man first need God’s heart transplant.
An un-regenerated/carnal man unable to choose God, unable to give consent to his Initial Justification and unable to cooperate with the grace of God to get it.
God simply Initially Justifies an un-regenerated/carnal man without his consent or cooperation, because he is unable to give his consent or to cooperate at his Initial Justification.
When Augustine said ’ Though God created us without us, he does not save us without us’ he is referring to Progressive Justification. – Cannot be refer to Initial Justification because it is solely God’s work, Initial Justification is monergism.
BENEFITS OF OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
Our Initial Justification is God’s free gift and solely the works of God, it is monergism and it is an instant event.
At our Initial Justification, we have received God’s Irrevocable Eternal Life and God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of our Eternal Life/Salvation.
As God’s elect, heaven is irrevocably in our bags from our Initial Justification, to be exact heaven is irrevocably in our bags from all eternity, this is DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.
In the way James Akin described:
You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being (Initially) Justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.
There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.
One is saved the moment one is initially justified. End quote.
Continue
**Our Initial Justification/heaven is God’s free gift, merited for us Christ on the cross.
**
**RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin
Quote:** Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).
Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.
The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — **we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification. **
You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.
There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.
One is saved the moment one is initially justified. End quote.
The spiritual position and the ability of and un-regenerated/carnal man to gain Initial Justification.
Rom.8:6-8;
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 cor.2:14;
But the natural man does not receives the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Meaning; man could do NOTHING, to enter the state of justification. – Man first need God’s heart transplant.
An un-regenerated/carnal man unable to choose God, unable to give consent to his Initial Justification and unable to cooperate with the grace of God to get it.
God simply Initially Justifies an un-regenerated/carnal man without his consent or cooperation, because he is unable to give his consent or to cooperate at his Initial Justification.
When Augustine said ’ Though God created us without us, he does not save us without us’ he is referring to Progressive Justification. – Cannot be refer to Initial Justification because it is solely God’s work, Initial Justification is monergism.
BENEFITS OF OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
Our Initial Justification is God’s free gift and solely the works of God, it is monergism and it is an instant event.
At our Initial Justification, we have received God’s Irrevocable Eternal Life and God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of our Eternal Life/Salvation.
As God’s elect, heaven is irrevocably in our bags from our Initial Justification, to be exact heaven is irrevocably in our bags from all eternity, this is DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.
In the way James Akin described:
You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being (Initially) Justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.
There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.
One is saved the moment one is initially justified. End quote.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
BENEFITS OF OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION
Our Progressive Justification is synergism. It is done by Faith + Works.
At the time of our Progressive Justification, by cooperating with the grace of God, we all should
put under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.
**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY
KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis added.
**If we not set free to love freely, ** we cannot love.
**If we not set free to freely decide to work, ** we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work, because we do it for our own interest!!!**
**Supernatural work is: **
Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,
**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,
**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.
THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD.
The works we must do, we do it for our own interest, this works contains no love neither for God, nor for other person.
The works we do out of SHEER LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD contains love, this is called, works of love.
The only our work is good work/supernatural work which contains love for God or for others – WORKS OF LOVE.
This is the only WORKS OF LOVE rewarded by God at the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15).
For easy understanding consider, our works as a vessel which contains the love which given through our works to God’s Glory or to others. – God rewards the love that the work/vessel contains.
The work done for our own interest contains neither love for God nor love for others, this works are NOT WORKS OF LOVE!!!
And as far as God’s rewards concern, these works are empty works/vessels, wood, hay and straw, goes up in smoke at the judgment.
THE WAY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
If we work for the reason to achieve our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to keep our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to get reward in heaven that is “usury,” it is not good works/supernatural works.
God bless Richca and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
BENEFITS OF OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION
Our Progressive Justification is synergism. It is done by Faith + Works.
At the time of our Progressive Justification, by cooperating with the grace of God, we all should
put under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.
**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY
KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis added.
**If we not set free to love freely, ** we cannot love.
**If we not set free to freely decide to work, ** we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work, because we do it for our own interest!!!**
**Supernatural work is: **
Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,
**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,
**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.
THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD.
The works we must do, we do it for our own interest, this works contains no love neither for God, nor for other person.
The works we do out of SHEER LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD contains love, this is called, works of love.
The only our work is good work/supernatural work which contains love for God or for others – WORKS OF LOVE.
This is the only WORKS OF LOVE rewarded by God at the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15).
For easy understanding consider, our works as a vessel which contains the love which given through our works to God’s Glory or to others. – God rewards the love that the work/vessel contains.
The work done for our own interest contains neither love for God nor love for others, this works are NOT WORKS OF LOVE!!!
And as far as God’s rewards concern, these works are empty works/vessels, wood, hay and straw, goes up in smoke at the judgment.
THE WAY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
If we work for the reason to achieve our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to keep our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to get reward in heaven that is “usury,” it is not good works/supernatural works.
God bless Richca and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
R
Richca
Guest
F
fhansen
Guest
The point is-and will always be- that man can reject grace. Otherwise God would be supremely unfair, basing election to heaven and reprobation to eternal punishment on divine whim before the creation of the world, rather than on any willful response to and cooperation with His overtures. We can’t be saved without Him, but He doesn’t save us without us. Because our willingness is directly related to and increases our justice, and increased justice means increased holiness, worth, and happiness. This is what He’s always wanted for us, but would never force upon us-or else we couldn’t make the right choice for ourselves. And so from Adam on it’s always been about making the right choice, with the help of grace.
The only problem, of course, is that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach this. There is no necessary distinction between actual and sanctifying grace in terms of efficacy, and, again, grace is always resistible anyway.
L
LatinRight
Guest
**God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.
You said Fhansen:**
The point is-and will always be- that man can reject grace.
I perfectly agree with you Fhansen, we can reject grace.
The truth is:
Every man has free will and CAN and sometimes reject works-related graces. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Every man has free will and CAN but never reject salvation-related graces; God grace The Gift of Final Perseverance helps man that freely make the right choices. – INFALLIBLE TEACHING.
RESISTING AND COOPERATING WITH GOD by James Akin.
Quote: Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).
Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.
The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — **we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification. **
You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.
There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.
One is saved the moment one is initially justified.
Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.
A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS IN HARMONY WITH THE ABOVE TEACHINGS OF JAMES AKIN
Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Our cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
CHRIST AFFIRMS THE ABOVE STATEMENT
Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS IN HARMONY WITH THE ABOVE TEACHINGS OF JAMES AKIN
Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Our cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
CHRIST AFFIRMS THE ABOVE STATEMENT
Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
- Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
Every member of the entire human race is EQUALLY dependent on the grace of God for everything, incudes their Initial Justification and Salvation.
An un-regenerated/carnal man unable to choose God, unable to give consent to his Initial Justification and unable to cooperate with the grace of God to get it.
At Initial Justification, which is an instant event, God gives every Initially Justified His gift of Everlasting Life and His other gift The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection and Provision of their Salvation and makes sure every Initially Justified goes up to heaven.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
After our Initial Justification, our cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Initial Justification SAVES the Initially Justified, at the point when one is Initially Justified.
The Gift of Final Perseverance KEEPS BEING SAVED the Initially Justified.
Without The Gift of Final Perseverance **every Initially Justified would end up in hell. – Infallible teaching. **
ONE CRUCIAL QUESTION
Can an Initially Justified man, reject God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance and end up in hell?
TO KNOW THE CORRECT ANSWER OF THE ABOVE QUESTION IS CRUCIAL
**THE ANSWER OF THE CHURCH AND THE SRIPTURE **
Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)
This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.
A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin
Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."
Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”
The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”
In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote
According to the above teachings; without God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance no one could end up in heaven.
Without The Gift of Final Perseverance, **every Initially Justified would end up in hell.
**
Initial Justification. + The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Heaven.
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Hell.
As you see above Fhansen, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Trent infallible teaches; an Initially Justified, RECEIVED God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, never reject salvation-related graces, God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance takes care about it, and makes sure the recipients end up in heaven.
**It makes no difference how we cut it: **
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Hell, is a positive predestination to hell.
This is above a positive proof, God’s Love and Justice DEMANDS that God to give every Initially Justified His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of every Initially Justified and makes sure that every Initially Justified **ends up in heaven. **
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Hell. This is an infallible teaching.
Do you agree Fhansen with my above statement?
Continue
Every member of the entire human race is EQUALLY dependent on the grace of God for everything, incudes their Initial Justification and Salvation.
An un-regenerated/carnal man unable to choose God, unable to give consent to his Initial Justification and unable to cooperate with the grace of God to get it.
At Initial Justification, which is an instant event, God gives every Initially Justified His gift of Everlasting Life and His other gift The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection and Provision of their Salvation and makes sure every Initially Justified goes up to heaven.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
After our Initial Justification, our cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Initial Justification SAVES the Initially Justified, at the point when one is Initially Justified.
The Gift of Final Perseverance KEEPS BEING SAVED the Initially Justified.
Without The Gift of Final Perseverance **every Initially Justified would end up in hell. – Infallible teaching. **
ONE CRUCIAL QUESTION
Can an Initially Justified man, reject God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance and end up in hell?
TO KNOW THE CORRECT ANSWER OF THE ABOVE QUESTION IS CRUCIAL
**THE ANSWER OF THE CHURCH AND THE SRIPTURE **
Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)
This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.
A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin
Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."
Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”
The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”
In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote
According to the above teachings; without God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance no one could end up in heaven.
Without The Gift of Final Perseverance, **every Initially Justified would end up in hell.
**
Initial Justification. + The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Heaven.
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Hell.
As you see above Fhansen, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Trent infallible teaches; an Initially Justified, RECEIVED God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, never reject salvation-related graces, God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance takes care about it, and makes sure the recipients end up in heaven.
**It makes no difference how we cut it: **
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Hell, is a positive predestination to hell.
This is above a positive proof, God’s Love and Justice DEMANDS that God to give every Initially Justified His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of every Initially Justified and makes sure that every Initially Justified **ends up in heaven. **
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting Life in Hell. This is an infallible teaching.
Do you agree Fhansen with my above statement?
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
The ability of the salvation of an un-regenerated/carnal man before Initial Justification is zero.
After Initial Justification, all Initially Justified Saved in the same way, concerning Salvation, they are all equal, no differences.
Throughout their Progressive Justification, their cooperation with the grace of God all EQUALLY relies on; that their cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Ez.36:27, And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
I’m sure Fhansen you understand what it means “CAUSE YOU.”
It means; our cooperation IS CAUSED BY GOD’S OPERATION!!! – Do you think Fhansen, God is able to do that???
So, we are safe because our cooperation is THE PROGUCT of God’s operation.
You said Fhansen:
Otherwise God would be supremely unfair, basing election to heaven and reprobation to eternal punishment on divine whim before the creation of the world, **rather than on any willful response to and cooperation with His overtures. **
The answer of the Scripture and the Catholic Church the reason, your suggestion is not possible:
Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced by God’s operation. No problem at all.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Our cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
As you see above Fhansen:
Every Initially Justified willful response to God’s salvation-related graces, identical.
So, there is no difference between their willful responses to God’s salvation-related graces because their responses equally the products of God’s operation.
Please keep in mind, we all have free wills and with free wills we always make the right choices in salvation-related graces because our choices equally the PRODUCTS of God’s OPERATION which we all chose with free wills!!!
THE RECONCILIATION
There is no reprobation and there is no eternal punishment.
Please read Jonah, God’s promise of the destruction of Nineveh and His Universal Salvation of Nineveh was God’s demonstration of the Universal Salvation of the human race.
You said Fhansen:
Otherwise God would be supremely unfair, basing election to heaven and reprobation to eternal punishment on divine whim before the creation of the world, **rather than on any willful response to and cooperation with His overtures. **
There is Universal Salvation, but your suggestion Fhansen has a logic in it, because our position and glory in heaven depends on; our willful response to and cooperation with God’s overtures works-related graces.
We can reject/resist or we can receive works-related graces in vain, or we can freely choose to cooperate with it, so our rewards, position, and glory in heaven will vary, depends on; our willful response.
Our Progressive Justification is our dressing room to heaven, we all must take it most seriously because our eternal position and glory in heaven **depends on our willful response to works-related graces. **
God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
The ability of the salvation of an un-regenerated/carnal man before Initial Justification is zero.
After Initial Justification, all Initially Justified Saved in the same way, concerning Salvation, they are all equal, no differences.
Throughout their Progressive Justification, their cooperation with the grace of God all EQUALLY relies on; that their cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Ez.36:27, And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
I’m sure Fhansen you understand what it means “CAUSE YOU.”
It means; our cooperation IS CAUSED BY GOD’S OPERATION!!! – Do you think Fhansen, God is able to do that???
So, we are safe because our cooperation is THE PROGUCT of God’s operation.
You said Fhansen:
Otherwise God would be supremely unfair, basing election to heaven and reprobation to eternal punishment on divine whim before the creation of the world, **rather than on any willful response to and cooperation with His overtures. **
The answer of the Scripture and the Catholic Church the reason, your suggestion is not possible:
Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced by God’s operation. No problem at all.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Our cooperation is produced by God’s operation.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
As you see above Fhansen:
Every Initially Justified willful response to God’s salvation-related graces, identical.
So, there is no difference between their willful responses to God’s salvation-related graces because their responses equally the products of God’s operation.
Please keep in mind, we all have free wills and with free wills we always make the right choices in salvation-related graces because our choices equally the PRODUCTS of God’s OPERATION which we all chose with free wills!!!
THE RECONCILIATION
There is no reprobation and there is no eternal punishment.
Please read Jonah, God’s promise of the destruction of Nineveh and His Universal Salvation of Nineveh was God’s demonstration of the Universal Salvation of the human race.
You said Fhansen:
Otherwise God would be supremely unfair, basing election to heaven and reprobation to eternal punishment on divine whim before the creation of the world, **rather than on any willful response to and cooperation with His overtures. **
There is Universal Salvation, but your suggestion Fhansen has a logic in it, because our position and glory in heaven depends on; our willful response to and cooperation with God’s overtures works-related graces.
We can reject/resist or we can receive works-related graces in vain, or we can freely choose to cooperate with it, so our rewards, position, and glory in heaven will vary, depends on; our willful response.
Our Progressive Justification is our dressing room to heaven, we all must take it most seriously because our eternal position and glory in heaven **depends on our willful response to works-related graces. **
God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
W
Wesrock
Guest
I’m hesitant on the word never. Excepting examples such as the BVM, your phrasing that the elect IJ+GoFP) can “never reject salvation-related graces” means that they can never sin venially or mortally. Certainly there are those among the elect who were justified, lost that justification, were absolved and regained their justification, and have been saved. Would you agree?
The key point, which we’re all circling around, is that men are actively involved in willing their initial justification and further justification. They cannot be involved without the action of God, but that does not negate their involvement or make their involvement passive.
F
fhansen
Guest
Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).
Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.
The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — **we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification. **
You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.
There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.
One is saved the moment one is initially justified.
Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.
A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.
Continue
Sorry, the RCC teaches specifically that efficacious grace, of any kind, can be rejected. And so did St Augustine:
**“He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent.” ** Sermo 169, 13
Study and pray more, try to get on board with basic Christianity
L
LatinRight
Guest
**God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.
Thank you for your good advise to study more and to pray more, it is good advise.**
I try to do my best even I’m 74 this year, I love study and I pry about one hour a day, 6 days/week from my heart and mostly in the spirit/tongue as it is described in 1 Cor.12:10; 1 Cor.14:2, 4-5, etc.
Praying in tongue is a cooperation with the Holy Spirit, man does the praying and the Holy Spirit controls the tongue of the person what to say.
I have to admit, before I didn’t have God’s gift of speaking in a tongue and I read 1 Cor. 14:2-5; “He who speaks (pray) in tongue edifies himself, …”** I couldn’t imagine, how can someone edifies himself when cannot understand a word what saying in prayer.**
After when I received God’s gift speaking in tongue, and I started to pray in tongue I understand soon about the way edifies himself.
While someone praying in tongue with the cooperation with the Holy Spirit the edification comes from God via our spirits and we clearly know God’s teachings on different issues.
Of course praying in the spirit/tongue does not replace the needs of other kinds of studies, praying in tongue only adds to our other studies.
I believe praying in the Spirit/tongue which is done by our cooperation with the Holy Spirit is THE HIGHEST form of prayer, because every word is in line with the will of God, as it is done by our cooperation with the Holy Spirit who controls out tongues and the Holy Spirit praying through us with our cooperation.
1 Cor.14:4-5;
4 The one who speaks [pray] in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.
The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may receive edification.
I love study Catholic teachings and I still love study the Bible even I read many parts of it probably more then 200 times.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**You said Fhansen:
Sorry, the RCC teaches specifically that efficacious grace, of any kind, can be rejected.
**
I’m sorry I don’t want you contradict you above statement, but the Catholic Church teachings Predestination of the elect which is a DE FIDE Dogma and the Catholic teaching on God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is and INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent totally contradicts your above statement.
THREE THEOLOGICAL FACT ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
FIRST VERSION
The RCC teaches specially, no one rejects salvation-related graces.
SECOND VERSION
Same teachings with other words, salvation-related graces are irresistible.
THIRD VERSION
If even one elect in all Christian history would/could reject salvation-related graces would end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience.
I believe Fhansen, you are agree with me:
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting life is in hell.
Is a positive predestination to hell, which the Catholic Church does NOT TEACH.
Elect cannot lose salvation.
God gives every Initially Justified His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, because without it, His Initial Justification would be a POSITIVE PREDESTINATION TO HELL.
**God predestined no one to hell!!!
So, please Fhansen inform me,** who can lose salvation then???
CHRIST’S STATEMENTS
Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
Continue
**You said Fhansen:
Sorry, the RCC teaches specifically that efficacious grace, of any kind, can be rejected.
**
I’m sorry I don’t want you contradict you above statement, but the Catholic Church teachings Predestination of the elect which is a DE FIDE Dogma and the Catholic teaching on God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is and INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent totally contradicts your above statement.
THREE THEOLOGICAL FACT ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
- Without God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone would be end up in hell. – INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent.
- With God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone end up in heaven. – DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.
- If even one elect would/could reject God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance would end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.
FIRST VERSION
The RCC teaches specially, no one rejects salvation-related graces.
SECOND VERSION
Same teachings with other words, salvation-related graces are irresistible.
THIRD VERSION
If even one elect in all Christian history would/could reject salvation-related graces would end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience.
I believe Fhansen, you are agree with me:
Initial Justification. – The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Everlasting life is in hell.
Is a positive predestination to hell, which the Catholic Church does NOT TEACH.
Elect cannot lose salvation.
God gives every Initially Justified His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, because without it, His Initial Justification would be a POSITIVE PREDESTINATION TO HELL.
**God predestined no one to hell!!!
So, please Fhansen inform me,** who can lose salvation then???
CHRIST’S STATEMENTS
Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
- Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**You said Fhansen:
And so did St Augustine:
“He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent.” **Sermo 169, 13
In the above statement St. Augustine teaching about Progressive Justification.
Could not teaching on Initial Justification for many reasons:
One is, an un-regenerated/carnal man unable to accept anything from the Spirit of God and accept nothing from the spirit of God. – Rom.8:6-7; 1 Cor.2:14; etc.
Another reason, our/elect Initial Justification is an instant event, starts when **we are un-regenerated/carnal, dead in sins, and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God, **when the end of this instant event, we are Initially Justified, we are in the state of grace, we are new creations in Christ, we have IRREVOCABLE SALVATION. – DE FIDE Dogma.
We can say, this instant event is our first stage of our salvation.
From this point on start our Progressive Justification, from this point on, we are actively cooperating with the grace of God.
**This is the second stage of our/elect salvation (Progressive Justification) **is done by Faith + Works, in this second stage of our salvation, our salvation is already irrevocable. – DE FIDE Dogma.
God simply Initially Justifies an un-regenerated/carnal man without his consent or cooperation, because he is unable to give his consent or to cooperate at his Initial Justification.
Not our faith, not our consent, not our cooperation with the grace of God involved in our Initial Justification!!! – It is God’s free and IRREVOCABLE GIFT and SOLELY the works of God.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
**You said Fhansen:
And so did St Augustine:
“He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent.” **Sermo 169, 13
I believe, you are Fahansen agree, St. Augustine referring to our Progressive Justification, NOT Initial Justification when we are/elect, Initially Justified and IRREVOCABLY saved, without our faith, without our consent, and without our cooperation with the grace of God. – DE FIDE Dogma.
God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
**You said Fhansen:
And so did St Augustine:
“He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent.” **Sermo 169, 13
In the above statement St. Augustine teaching about Progressive Justification.
Could not teaching on Initial Justification for many reasons:
One is, an un-regenerated/carnal man unable to accept anything from the Spirit of God and accept nothing from the spirit of God. – Rom.8:6-7; 1 Cor.2:14; etc.
Another reason, our/elect Initial Justification is an instant event, starts when **we are un-regenerated/carnal, dead in sins, and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God, **when the end of this instant event, we are Initially Justified, we are in the state of grace, we are new creations in Christ, we have IRREVOCABLE SALVATION. – DE FIDE Dogma.
We can say, this instant event is our first stage of our salvation.
From this point on start our Progressive Justification, from this point on, we are actively cooperating with the grace of God.
**This is the second stage of our/elect salvation (Progressive Justification) **is done by Faith + Works, in this second stage of our salvation, our salvation is already irrevocable. – DE FIDE Dogma.
God simply Initially Justifies an un-regenerated/carnal man without his consent or cooperation, because he is unable to give his consent or to cooperate at his Initial Justification.
Not our faith, not our consent, not our cooperation with the grace of God involved in our Initial Justification!!! – It is God’s free and IRREVOCABLE GIFT and SOLELY the works of God.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
**You said Fhansen:
And so did St Augustine:
“He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent.” **Sermo 169, 13
I believe, you are Fahansen agree, St. Augustine referring to our Progressive Justification, NOT Initial Justification when we are/elect, Initially Justified and IRREVOCABLY saved, without our faith, without our consent, and without our cooperation with the grace of God. – DE FIDE Dogma.
God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
L
LatinRight
Guest
God bless Wesrock and every readers of the CAF.
**Initial justification is an instant event, solely the works of God, we can say this is our first stage of our salvation. **
God’s works to do in our parts of baptism (Initial Justification) always PRECEDES our water baptism.
When our water baptism takes place we are actively cooperating with the grace of God, but this is ALREADY the second stage of our salvation, called Progressive Justification.
Sometimes there is a big distance between God does His part in our baptism (Initial Justification) which is an instant event, and we do our part of our water baptism which is already our (Progressive Justification) second stage of our salvation and we actively cooperating with the grace of God.
Tuesday, April 2, 2013
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination? by Fr. William Most
Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.
Meaning man does NOTHING and could do NOTHING, to enter the state of Initial Justification.
An un-regenerated/carnal man unable to choose God, unable to give consent to his Initial Justification (INSTANT EVENT) and unable to cooperate with the grace of God to get it.
God simply Initially Justifies an un-regenerated/carnal man without his consent or cooperation, because he is unable to give his consent or to cooperate at his Initial Justification.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man into His service/salvation His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.
Continue
[/quote]
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
THE OTHER TWO SALVATION RELATED QUESTIONS ARE
When we commit an act of sin one way or another we pay the price.
**The question is; **what is the price we pay, what kind of a price we pay for our sins?
Every elect at their Initial Justification receives, **God’s gift of Everlasting Life and God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, etc.
Salvation-related graces given at Initial Justification for example:**
God’s grace the Gift of Initial Justification. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession, irrevocable, Rom.11:29.
God’s grace the Gift of Everlasting Life. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession John 5:24; etc. irrevocable, Rom.11:29.
God’s grace the Gift of Final Perseverance. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession, irrevocable, Rom.11:29.
God’s grace the gift of salvation. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession John 5:24; etc. irrevocable, Rom.11:29; Eph.2:8.
We should NEVER mix together God’s gift of OF heaven, with God’s rewards IN heaven.
God’s gift of heaven is by grace alone, by faith alone, apart from works, it is irrevocable and free gift, as God’s elect, we received it at our Initial Justification, paid by Christ on the cross!!!
Throughout our Progressive Justification which is by Faith + Works of Love, we receive God’s rewards in heaven.
If our works are faithless graceless works (done for our salvation or for to keep our salvation), not up to the standard of supernatural works/Works of Love, we receive no rewards, yet we still keep God’s IRREVOCABLE gift of heaven.
**This is a great loss, because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.
**
To mix it together, God’s gift OF heaven with God’s rewards IN heaven, causes great confusion and it is the pollution of the Gospel and it is THE HERESY OF THE WORSE KIND!!! – CALLED WORKS-SALVATION.
John 5:24; (NKJ)
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.” End quote.
EVERLASTING LIFE Is the Word of God, periodical life and death is one of the most destructive heresy of the devil!!! – Keeping many Christians in a fear induced paralyzed state!!!
It is time to set Christians free from the fear induced paralyzed state with the truth which is:
Initial Justification. + God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Eternal Life in heaven.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, God’s gift of Initial Justification/Salvation can NEVER BE REVOKED!!!
Ephesians 2:8; (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Rom. 11:29;
For the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
John 12:48;
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge him on the last day.
According to the above Word of God, all the above IRREVOCABLE Gifts of God are the matter of Initial Justification, and that case is closed at the point of Initial justification, they are IRREVOCABLE GIFTS, CAN NEWER BE REVOKED.
So, according to the above Word of God, The Predestination of the elect which is DE FIDE Dogma, God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, etc. venial sins has no effect on the IRREVOCABLE salvation-related gifts of graces (they are irrevocable gifts, given for eternity), venial sins effects only our positions and glory in heaven.
For our venial sins we suffer eternal consequences forever in heaven.
Probably the word “suffer” too hard word, **better put it the way as follows: **
Our sins has negative effects on our position and glory in heaven.
Of course, someone may say: What about forgiveness of our sins? Of course God forgives.
But we still miss out because instead of committing sins we could do Works of Love which God rewards it in heaven, so one way or another our sins costs for us.
Continue
THE OTHER TWO SALVATION RELATED QUESTIONS ARE
- Can an elect/Initially Justified reject salvation related-graces after Initial Justification?
- Can an Initially Justified lost his call and his Initial Justification meaning; get into the state of mortal sin and if dies in the state of mortal sin ends up in hell?
When we commit an act of sin one way or another we pay the price.
**The question is; **what is the price we pay, what kind of a price we pay for our sins?
Every elect at their Initial Justification receives, **God’s gift of Everlasting Life and God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, etc.
Salvation-related graces given at Initial Justification for example:**
God’s grace the Gift of Initial Justification. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession, irrevocable, Rom.11:29.
God’s grace the Gift of Everlasting Life. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession John 5:24; etc. irrevocable, Rom.11:29.
God’s grace the Gift of Final Perseverance. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession, irrevocable, Rom.11:29.
God’s grace the gift of salvation. – 100 % God’s gift, present possession John 5:24; etc. irrevocable, Rom.11:29; Eph.2:8.
We should NEVER mix together God’s gift of OF heaven, with God’s rewards IN heaven.
God’s gift of heaven is by grace alone, by faith alone, apart from works, it is irrevocable and free gift, as God’s elect, we received it at our Initial Justification, paid by Christ on the cross!!!
Throughout our Progressive Justification which is by Faith + Works of Love, we receive God’s rewards in heaven.
If our works are faithless graceless works (done for our salvation or for to keep our salvation), not up to the standard of supernatural works/Works of Love, we receive no rewards, yet we still keep God’s IRREVOCABLE gift of heaven.
**This is a great loss, because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.
**
To mix it together, God’s gift OF heaven with God’s rewards IN heaven, causes great confusion and it is the pollution of the Gospel and it is THE HERESY OF THE WORSE KIND!!! – CALLED WORKS-SALVATION.
John 5:24; (NKJ)
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.” End quote.
EVERLASTING LIFE Is the Word of God, periodical life and death is one of the most destructive heresy of the devil!!! – Keeping many Christians in a fear induced paralyzed state!!!
It is time to set Christians free from the fear induced paralyzed state with the truth which is:
Initial Justification. + God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Eternal Life in heaven.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, God’s gift of Initial Justification/Salvation can NEVER BE REVOKED!!!
Ephesians 2:8; (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Rom. 11:29;
For the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
John 12:48;
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge him on the last day.
According to the above Word of God, all the above IRREVOCABLE Gifts of God are the matter of Initial Justification, and that case is closed at the point of Initial justification, they are IRREVOCABLE GIFTS, CAN NEWER BE REVOKED.
So, according to the above Word of God, The Predestination of the elect which is DE FIDE Dogma, God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, etc. venial sins has no effect on the IRREVOCABLE salvation-related gifts of graces (they are irrevocable gifts, given for eternity), venial sins effects only our positions and glory in heaven.
For our venial sins we suffer eternal consequences forever in heaven.
Probably the word “suffer” too hard word, **better put it the way as follows: **
Our sins has negative effects on our position and glory in heaven.
Of course, someone may say: What about forgiveness of our sins? Of course God forgives.
But we still miss out because instead of committing sins we could do Works of Love which God rewards it in heaven, so one way or another our sins costs for us.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
THE SECOND QUESTION:
CAN AN INITIALLY JUSTIFIED LOST HIS SALVATION THROUGH MORTAL SIN AND END UP IN HELL?
We could formulate the question different way as follows:
Does God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance protects the Initially Justified from committing mortal sin?
Every Christian who I know so far and they believe, they can commit mortal sins, they all believes if they die in mortal sin they end up in hell.
They all believe, if someone can commit mortal sin, can die in mortal sin.
It is logical, because if someone can commit mortal sin, certainly can die in mortal sin (accidents happens) and end up in hell, so the real question is:
What is the reason, not even one elect/Initially Justified can die in mortal sin in all Christian history?
Please keep in mind:
Initial Justification. – God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Eternal Life in hell.
Is NOT Catholic teaching, it is a heresy of POSITIVE PREDESTINATION TO HELL!!!
So; Initial Justification. – God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. = POSITIVE PREDESTINATION TO HELL.
It is a heresy which is mocking God’s Love and Justice!!! – It is NOT Catholic teachings.
At this stage I believe, every Initially Justified is protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance from committing mortal sin.
God’s gifts given at Initial Justification or ANY TIMES AFTER ARE IRREVOCABLE!!! – THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!!!
I’m sorry, but I don’t have any other explanation.
If you Wesrock have a better explanation then I have, my mind is open, please let me know.
Thank you in advance.
God bless Wesrock and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
THE SECOND QUESTION:
CAN AN INITIALLY JUSTIFIED LOST HIS SALVATION THROUGH MORTAL SIN AND END UP IN HELL?
We could formulate the question different way as follows:
Does God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance protects the Initially Justified from committing mortal sin?
Every Christian who I know so far and they believe, they can commit mortal sins, they all believes if they die in mortal sin they end up in hell.
They all believe, if someone can commit mortal sin, can die in mortal sin.
It is logical, because if someone can commit mortal sin, certainly can die in mortal sin (accidents happens) and end up in hell, so the real question is:
What is the reason, not even one elect/Initially Justified can die in mortal sin in all Christian history?
Please keep in mind:
Initial Justification. – God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. = Eternal Life in hell.
Is NOT Catholic teaching, it is a heresy of POSITIVE PREDESTINATION TO HELL!!!
So; Initial Justification. – God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. = POSITIVE PREDESTINATION TO HELL.
It is a heresy which is mocking God’s Love and Justice!!! – It is NOT Catholic teachings.
At this stage I believe, every Initially Justified is protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance from committing mortal sin.
God’s gifts given at Initial Justification or ANY TIMES AFTER ARE IRREVOCABLE!!! – THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!!!
I’m sorry, but I don’t have any other explanation.
If you Wesrock have a better explanation then I have, my mind is open, please let me know.
Thank you in advance.
God bless Wesrock and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
F
fhansen
Guest
You’re funny LR
. I don’t know if you lie knowingly about the Catholic faith or ignorantly-but you should know by now. I’ll give you the benefit if the doubt. Here’s from Trent, session 6, again:Canon 23 If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace,[124] and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or on the contrary, that he can during his whole life avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin, let him be anathema.
- Status