Outside the Church there is no salvation

[CentralFLJames]

CFLJames:

Yeah it certainly seems kind of harsh by current standards. But the truth is in the old days sibling rivalry between 1st and 2nd born was intense and Isaac was 2nd born and would not have been entitled to an inheritance if Abraham had adopted Haggai as a 2nd wife. It’s easy to predict that there would be violence and Sarah was wise in discerning the competitive and stubborn nature of Ishmael (“a wild *** of a man”). There would have been ceaseless conflict over inheritance rights between first born and first blood line. Just look at what we have today in Arabia - THAT whole middle-east conflict came directly out of this ancient sibling grudge.
–James

aahha! BECAUSE IT WASN’T THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

No - it was ordained from before the world was created.

This is allegory. What is going on here is the depicion of two covenants - one of grace and one of law. Can you guess who is associated with which?

By judging as man does rather than as God does we see Hagars treatment as harsh and unjust. But there is a lot more here than meets the sensual eye - spirutual discernment is needed to see more of it.

Sarah is first wife - she is a type of the Covenant of Grace.
Hagar is bondsmaid - she is a type of the Covenant of Works or Law

Paul saw it:
Galatians 4:21-31:

Bond and Free

*21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that **Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. ***23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

James

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Dear James, Father God let all this happen just to show us the difference between free and bond? My, Paul and the decipals knew all this back then and it’s been 2000 years, and he has not come back yet, so,it is true he might not come back for 5,000 more years? OH! I’m sick to my stomach,do you know how many people have lived since before Jesus ever came? and since he left? And in 5,000 years from now, how big is heaven and how can he keep tract of all this? It makes me wonder.

 

[Ignatius]

That’s kind of what I am talking about.

Did King Henry VIII know?
At some point he might have known, but would he have left if he knew?

Martin Luther is another example.
He might have known, but would he have left if he knew?

A modern day example is Fr. Cutie.
He might have known as well, but would he have left if he knew?

The problem I am having is I don’t understand how someone could leave in the state of knowing.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

OK, do you understand what John is saying? It’s not good news for those who left!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Dear James, Father God let all this happen just to show us the difference between free and bond? My, Paul and the decipals knew all this back then and it’s been 2000 years, and he has not come back yet, so,it is true he might not come back for 5,000 more years? OH! I’m sick to my stomach,do you know how many people have lived since before Jesus ever came? and since he left? And in 5,000 years from now, how big is heaven and how can he keep tract of all this? It makes me wonder.

It teaches much more than two categories of covenants. It sets up the entire conflict between man who prefers to be enslaved to the law and Christ who is covenanted to grace to save man. Also note that Hagar serves Sarah as her handmaid. The Law serves grace but it also competes with grace and wants the inheritance. Ishmael is of the flesh and Isaac is of the spirit - the first is a stronger urge than the 2nd and gets its reward on earth but no eternal life. The latter gets its reward in heaven after being bullied and ridiculed by the stronger allure of the works of law. But law serves grace by revealing our guilt since all fall under the law - guilty of one commandment then guilty of all. Man was meant to fall and the Law was given to put us on the path to discover God and seek His Mercy - which ultimately leads to Jesus. But those who accept the new covenant of grace have the door to their hearts (where God writes His laws) marked with the blood of the lamb and God’s justice passes them over and they are spared.

Notice too that Mary is another type of handmaid - of the Lord. She is “full of grace”. Guess what covenant she is part of? The covenant of Grace.

Pick Mary and Christ over Hagar and you will be free and get your eternal reward later but will have to suffer those who are under the law and think they are just.

James

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

It teaches much more than two categories of covenants. It sets up the entire conflict between man who prefers to be enslaved to the law and Christ who is covenanted to grace to save man. Also note that Hagar serves Sarah as her handmaid. The Law serves grace but it also competes with grace and wants the inheritance. Ishmael is of the flesh and Isaac is of the spirit - the first is a stronger urge than the 2nd and gets its reward on earth but no eternal life. The latter gets its reward in heaven after being bullied and ridiculed by the stronger allure of the works of law. But law serves grace by revealing our guilt since all fall under the law - guilty of one commandment then guilty of all. Man was meant to fall and the Law was given to put us on the path to discover God and seek His Mercy - which ultimately leads to Jesus. But those who accept the new covenant of grace have the door to their hearts (where God writes His laws) marked with the blood of the lamb and God’s justice passes them over and they are spared.

Notice too that Mary is another type of handmaid - of the Lord. She is “full of grace”. Guess what covenant she is part of? The covenant of Grace.

Pick Mary and Christ over Hagar and you will be free and get your eternal reward later but will have to suffer those who are under the law and think they are just.

James

Thank You for all the information you have given to me tonight I realy appreciated all you have done for me, and the Lords people. I am going to be thinking of all this, as I can see the message quite well. Love of Christ Nancy good Night James.

 

[lookaround]

OK, do you understand what John is saying? It’s not good news for those who left!

Yeah, it goes back to the first post.
If you don’t remain, its because you don’t know. John tells us that if someone leaves its because they never knew.
Unless they don’t care or want salvation.

 

[anon5216]

Would you have felt better about it if the utterly debased Canaanites who had devolved to a subhuman form of existence with human sacrifice and demonic worship and gross abandonment of natural moral law had been directly annihilated by hell fire rather than indirectly through the instrument of Israel?

Do you object to the fact that the Creator reserves for himself the supreme right to give and take life when and how He sees fit or are you just upset that you don’t get a vote in approving any of it?

The more straightforward read of your objections here is that you simply don’t trust God or believe He should have any say in his own Creation without consulting His creatures and developing a consensus or committee action. Did you come out of “Corporate America” by chance?

James

You are assuming that the ancient Hebrews were honest.
Groups always demonize those they want to exterminate, so other than propaganda from the genocidal Hebrews, where’s the evidence against the Canaanites?

I object to humans claiming the right to take life as they see fit and then announcing “God made/let/sanctioned/authorized/instructed/etc. us to do it” - with of course no proof other than their own claims.

The more straightforward read is that I simply don’t trust the nonsense that various ancient people, (or modern for that matter), spout while claiming God as the source.

 

[anon5216]

What God commands is the absolute law, and one is perfectly justified in doing it. Hence the comparison to the Old Testament fails.

As a matter of fact, though, this is precisely the reason why some people, say Muslims, who have been raised from birth to believe that God commands them to do, say, acts of terrorism, could possibly be excused from sin in doing so: Precisely because they believe that it is a commandment of God, just as Abraham was able to intend to kill his son, because God commanded it.

God bless,

Believing or claiming that God commanded something doesn’t make it true.
The OT is too full of obvious political propaganda to believe as the “Word of God”.
It is the word of propagandists.

 

[geekborj]

846 …they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

In the end, the decision is God’s if a person is saved or not. But God is clear in telling us that: (1) salvation depends on the intention (will) of the person; and (2) that He instituted a Church to dispense that saving grace to Man. The second point is foreshadowed by Noah’s ark as the only means of being saved from the Flood.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You are assuming that the ancient Hebrews were honest.
Groups always demonize those they want to exterminate, so other than propaganda from the genocidal Hebrews, where’s the evidence against the Canaanites?

I object to humans claiming the right to take life as they see fit and then announcing “God made/let/sanctioned/authorized/instructed/etc. us to do it” - with of course no proof other than their own claims.

The more straightforward read is that I simply don’t trust the nonsense that various ancient people, (or modern for that matter), spout while claiming God as the source.

Why should we doubt the Jews? These people have been airing their dirty laundry to us for 4000 years or so. The Jews have never tried to hide their many faults of being unfaithful to the covenants - even making the golden calf idol right after being rescued from Pharaoh while Moses was out fetching The Law. They tell us that ALL of their greatest leaders as well as ther worst leaders were ALL terrible sinners (Moses was a murder, King Saul was corrupt, King David was unmerciful with his enemies - both internal and external and a murdering adulterer, Solomon - the wisest man in history but yet a fool to make temples to false gods etc., Herod was pure evil). Liars don’t show their faults - they brag. If anything I’d be more concerned with the Jews being overscrupulous and inventing false stories of their failures that show them to be ever prone to corruption just to make God look all the more Merciful and Loyal to His promises in the face of betrayal.

**Groups always demonize those they want to exterminate? **

But does the Commutative Principal apply to your formula? Do you wish to exterminate Christians and Jews by demonizing these in a paranoid-pessimistic theory of “do onto others before they do onto you”?

You may very well "object to humans claiming the right to take life as they see fit and then announcing “God made/let/sanctioned/authorized/instructed/etc. us to do it”. But I object to those who claim the right to anachronistically judge motive and assume the worst in others as a cover for lack of trust in fellow man at large.

There are two kinds of people in life my friend:

1. those who fear and mistrust their fellow men - the pessimists
   and
2. those who first extend the benefit of the doubt about their fellow humans and trust that there were at least good intentions underling their actions and beliefs - the optimists

Now, personally, I am not foaming-at-the-mouth naive optimist myself. I call myself a realist - there is both good and bad in the world. But the overriding bias in nature is a desire to do good - even if the means to do so is often lacking.

That said, I posit that the the straightforward read through the bifocals of pessimism is an distorted perspective. It can’t trust what it thinks it sees in itself so how can it trust what it sees in others?

The single thing in scripture that proves the case for me is that it is too complex and internally consistent to be contrived. It would be impossible for a grand-intergenerational conspiracy to be maintained for 2,000 years across many conflicts and tests and persevering will in the face of hardships, loss and grief. The real proof is in the fact that the original witnesses (as a people) were completely oblivious to the Messiah they had been waiting for for thousands of years and unable to recognize Him and in fact spurned Him. That is pure consistency of obstinacy, corruption and error that has been propagated through the millenium that PROVES that these incompetents could not have been smart enough to lie and make this stuff up and keep it all going so long. Only God could use an obstinate but persistent people like the Jews to any kind of productive gain.

Add in the many prefiguring OT events that perfectly mirror what happens in the NT and are accurate in both contexts and we see that no human being could invent this stuff. There was never a prior literary work composed through so many human authors (over 40) over so many generations with so many complimentary literary styles and spiritual depth with a consistent self-referential and consistent framework that is not discernible till the very end. Even today, if a person tried to emulate this work in a new fiction it would take computers to constantly cross check the verse interplay from old to new to prevent logical inconsistencies and errors. If a person who reads the bible from cover to cover and spend a little time meditating on it all can not see a divine fingerprint and purpose in it all - then they are utterly blind to the clear fact that this work exceeds natural human capacity.

What a perfect plan!

As a parting comment on the Canaanites thing - consider that the Jews were not all that strong militarily and would rather avoid conflict than risk confronting it. What would be the human motive for fabricating a story-line for attacking and killing the Canaanites given the high risks? The Israelites were usually on defense as victims all through their history and were not offensively oriented. Why did they break pattern? They viewed the spoils of war from pagan-heathens as anathema that was worthless to them personally. Why die for booty that can not be used? The normal pattern of the time was to loot and take slaves to advance one’s power - not risk the welfare of the nation in war for no material gain. There was clearly a different motive for the Jews that was entirely different than other nations. How many pagan countries spread by the sword to advance their religions vs just to gain power and wealth? No - the odds are that the Jews did not lie.

James

 

[PJM]

846 …they could not be saved **who, knowing **that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

***Salvation is a mystery. The RCC teaches that all salvation is mysteriously connectd to Her, and thus all salvation is through Her. This by virture of the Sacramants, by virtue of the constant presence of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit, by virtue of the fact that She is not only the Orginal church founded by Chrsit; She is the Only Church founded by Christ.

So through a common Baptism and a common belief in the Blessed Trinity, all salvation flows mysteriously through the RCC.***

CCC #169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith."

CCC # 780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men."

CCC # 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

CCC # 776 As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. “She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all,” “the universal sacrament of salvation,” by which Christ is “at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men.” The Church “is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity,” because God desires “that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit.”

It is by God’s design and God’s Will that it be so.

Love and prayers

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

James,I found this today. Nancy
Ishmael and Esau
Question
Did Ishmael and/or Esau go to heaven? Romans 9 seems to put them in the non-elect category. But in Genesis, God seems favorable towards Ishmael (Gen. 21:16ff) and Esau seems repentant (Gen. 33). How do we fit all this together?

Answer
Hebrews 12:15-16 states that Esau was a godless man who fell short of God’s grace. This paints a pretty dark picture of him. Hebrews 12:17 speaks of Esau’s repentance, but also says that it was not genuine. Whether or not this was the repentance of Genesis 33, however, is not stated (I suspect it refers to the Gen. 27 episode, where we see Esau cry for a blessing). Further, Paul speaks of God’s rejection of Esau as an example of the way God predestines the reprobate to hell (Rom. 9:10ff.), in effect stating that Esau was not saved.

Paul does not treat Ishmael quite as harshly, simply appealing to Isaac as a child of promise, but not condemning Ishmael (Rom. 9:6ff.). Still, Paul’s point in Romans 9:6-7 seems to be that Ishmael and Esau were not true children of Abraham. On the heels of Romans 4, it would appear that he means that Ishmael and Esau were at least typological of unbelievers.

Now, just because one is typological of unbelievers does not mean one cannot be saved. For example, it is certainly possible that Adam is in heaven even though he is also typological of unbelievers in certain ways (e.g. Hos. 6:7; Rom. 5:18; 1 Cor. 15:22). After all, he is also typological of Christ (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:45).

First, it is important to remember that Genesis does not specifically tell us the eternal fate of either Esau or Ishmael. We have to formulate our best onjectures based on the data available to us. Second, Paul and the author of Hebrews had the same data available to them, and they seem to have drawn relatively strong conclusions. Third, Paul and the author of Hebrews commented authoritatively on the Genesis account. Fourth, Paul is not explicit in his discussion of Ishmael, which might throw some shadow over strong conclusions regarding Ishmael based on Romans 9.
As we look at Genesis with Esau in mind, we see first that Esau is in fact godless and faithless, as the author of Hebrews points out. Regardless of what Esau does later, it is clear at least that he sells his birthright. I would suggest that any man who is able to think coherently enough to sell his birthright and to feed himself after so doing is not really on the brink of death (Gen. 25:31-34). Even Moses comments that this constituted despising the birthright. Noting that a birthright included the eldest son’s right to inherit a double portion of his father’s estate, Esau threw away a potential fortune for the sake of a meal. That he subsequently tried to usurp that same birthright (which then belonged to Jacob) from Jacob by asking Isaac to bless him (Esau) rather than to bless Jacob - this constituted the attempted theft of Jacob’s birthright (Gen. 27). In addition to selling his own inheritance and tyring to steal his brother’s inheritance, Esau plotted Jacob’s murder (Gen. 27:41), which I think we would have to consider evil. If Esau later relented of his desire to murder Jacob, it was not sufficient to restore Esau; it only served to mitigate Esau’s evil. Moreover, given Jacob’s hesitancy to be around Esau in Genesis 33, one might question Esau’s sincerity even in that chapter. After all, Jacob is the hero of the story, and if he didn’t trust Esau, we probably shouldn’t either.

Paul and the author of Hebrews saw in Esau a readiness to cast aside God’s covenant blessings (by selling the birthright, Esau sold covenant headship over God’s people). Esau wasn’t just giving up wealth - he was giving up God’s special favor. This was a favor that Jacob and his descendants (such as Moses and Israel who followed him from Egypt, i.e. the original audience) should have highly valued. Moses valued this favor even above the blessings of the Promised Land (Exod. 33:14-15). From the perspective of Moses and his original audience, Esau did the unthinkable: he went back to Egypt, so to speak (even his inheritance/curse in Genesis 27:39-40 is reminiscent of life in Egypt: slavery away from “dew of heaven” [cf. Deut. 11:10-12]). This crime is horrible, and Esau’s subsequent behavior in Genesis 33 does not sufficiently demonstrate repentance for this sin (especially if we are not to trust his motives there).
God indicates that Ishmael was to be a blessing to Hagar and that he would have many descendants (Gen. 16:10-12). This blessing of descendants was similar to God’s covenant with Abraham, though God did not actually covenant with Hagar or Ishmael in Genesis 16, making the blessing less certain. In any event, when Esau matured he left the covenant community to build his own community. Moses called this an act of “defiance of all his relatives” (Gen. 25:18). It would seem that in the end Ishmael too abandoned the covenant community, the community of God’s special favor within which was to be found the blessing of salvation (cf. Gal. 3:8). While we might tend to overlook small details such as Moses’ comment in Genesis 25:18, this would seem to be the best evidence to which Paul might appeal in order establish his case that Ishmael was not a true child of Abraham.
Ishmael and Esau rejected God and his covenant community, and thereby rejected the covenant blessings even including salvation. Rather than looking at the ebb and flow of Ishmael’s and Esau’s behavior, they looked for significant key indicators that pointed to the attitudes these men held toward God and his people. These attitudes were more indicative of Ishmael’s and Esau’s hearts than were things like their potential to sire great nations, or their “patience” with their estranged brothers. After all, even the wicked love their children and do some good (Matt. 5:46-47); abandonment of God and his community is a much better indicator of reprobation (1 John 2:19).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Atassina,

I really thought Luke’s first post was clearly stated.

Your question seemed to indicate you were not familiar with the material - and he provided an abundance (… … )

But, this question has me confused as to what it is you do not understand.

Luke:
I was hoping for an explanation in your own words. I have the Catechism, The Compendium and all the supporting documents: The Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Pray tell, could you give a brief explanation in your own words if possible? Thanks

There really are people out there that think they can have access to your property whenever they wish. These people see no difficulty with their way of life and even if yours is lost so that they can take your property, this is just the price of that transaction. These people have no moral boundaries - and, while those of us with moral boundaries may not fully understand their thinking - this lack of understanding on our part does not deny their existence - and, our need to protect ourselves from such robbers and murderers.

God bless

 

[MacGregor1991]

I have another question too, in the 2nd verse of the 23rd chapter of deuteronomy it is written:

“A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.”

So if i am right this would mean that bastards are effectively doomed to some quite fiery place which brings up the question what the teachings of the catholic church are about that?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

(For KJV chapter & verse search click here)

INHERITED SEXUAL SINS

Compiled
by
Gene and Earline Moody

PREFACE

This is a strong lesson, but there is nothing to be embarrassed about. The Bible tells it like it is-sin is sin. You also need to learn how demons talk and think. Sex according to God is pure, uplifting and clean; sex according to Satan is perverted, degrading and filthy. Children and adults need to learn about the right and wrong ways of sex.

This is a lesson that should have been taught by every pastor and minister, but has not been. Had it been, we would fear God and not commit sexual sins, either before or after marriage.

Do you know what the Bible says about sexual sin? Have you committed any sexual sin in your life? Do you know the long-reaching results of your actions? Do you know that you have cursed your children and your grandchildren to the tenth generation (approximately four hundred years), because of your rebellion and sin against God’s Word?

INHERITED SEXUAL SINS

HOW WE GET CAUGHT IN SEXUAL TRAPS

I am going to briefly discuss some of the traps Satan has set for us in the sexual area that will hold not only us but also generations of our descendents in their bondage. It will not be a pretty picture, but perhaps you will see yourself and your children in these traps.

There is good news for all Christians who desire to stop the effects of past sins. Jesus was made accursed for us (Galatians 3:13); therefore, we may break the curses, call out the demon spirits and watch very carefully for Satan’s tricks in the sexual area.

The number one reason we have found for the sinful sexual activity of our day is that proper love relationships are not shown in the home.

In many homes, even Christian homes, the proper relationships are not lived. Children need to see and feel the love between parents and themselves. Many people do not love their children. Many who do may not be able to show love properly to the children due to the problems they have with rejection of themselves.

Love is constant; it does not turn off when you don’t get your way, or when you fail or when someone you love fails. (Please read and study II Timothy 3:1-5).

Reason number two (one which grows out of number 1) is rejection. A rejected person is one who is always looking for someone to love them without reservation. Many substitute lust (which tries to grab for itself) in place of love (which is caring, giving and protecting).

Isaiah 53:3 states, "He was despised and rejected of men” (all men).

Rejection is a tool Satan uses on all of us. He used it repeatedly on Jesus. We have come to believe it is the first deep wound a person receives, and if not healed, provides the doorway for demons to enter.

Much of the sexual activity of today is rejected people trying to feel loved. They have just fallen for one of Satan’s tricks. Sexual activity is not love; it is just sex.

Reason number three is curses playing out their legal hold. When you or one of your direct line ancestors commits a sexual sin which carries a curse, demons which accompany that curse will follow all the descendents and try to bring each one into sexual sin.

The demons have a right to do this until the curse runs out, provided no one else adds to the curse, or until someone learns how to use the name of Jesus and the Word, "It is written,” and break the curses and cast out the demons which accompany the curse.

The devil’s purpose is to destroy whole family lines. I have seen this happen. (King David’s family and Saul’s family.)

“But God” (two of the loveliest words in the Bible) made a way out of this mess. It will not be easy; it will require diligence that we are commanded to have and to practice. (2 Peter 3:14; Exodus 15:26; Hebrews 11:6, etc.)

If you want to get some idea how important God considers our relationship to family members and other people, just consider this. In Exodus 20, God says we will be cursed for three and four generations for worshipping other gods; but, in Deuteronomy 23, He says we will be cursed for ten generations for creating a bastard or for incest.

A bastard is one conceived out of wedlock. Incest is sex with someone you are kin to.

Here are some curses that you may have started or which may have been handed to you by one or all of your ancestors.

Leviticus 20:13 - Homosexuals (male or female) often come from homes where there is an Ahab (dominated) father and a Jezebel (dominant) mother. They also come from homes where one or both parents may be closet homosexuals.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21; Numbers 5:27 - Adulterous women loose demons of adultery on their children along with all the shame, insecurity, hurt, sickness, and the tendency to be a victim, etc.

Deuteronomy 22:22-27; Leviticus 20:10 - Adulterous men loose demons of adultery on their children the same as women, along with the tendency to be cruel.

Deuteronomy 23:2 - Creating a bastard looses demons to lead your children away from God, to cause trouble between family members and create more bastards.

Deuteronomy 23:3 - Having incestuous relationships looses demons to cause all that is in the bastard curse and also hardness, hate, insanity and deformity.

Deuteronomy 27:21 - Sex with beasts creates a very degenerate mind, physical deformities and is a form of Satan worship. Satan hates us and wants to make us lower than the animals. Some families have animal physical features. When questioned once about clubfeet, one demon said he was there because a great grandfather had sex with horses.

If you have ever said something like this: "It isn’t anyone’s business what I do. I’m not hurting anyone but myself.” Think how you will answer God. Think how you will feel as you watch the payoff from Satan to your descendents.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The demons have a right to do this until the curse runs out, provided no one else adds to the curse, or until someone learns how to use the name of Jesus and the Word, "It is written,” and break the curses and cast out the demons which accompany the curse.

The devil’s purpose is to destroy whole family lines. I have seen this happen. (King David’s family and Saul’s family.)

“But God” (two of the loveliest words in the Bible) made a way out of this mess. It will not be easy; it will require diligence that we are commanded to have and to practice. (2 Peter 3:14; Exodus 15:26; Hebrews 11:6, etc.)

If you want to get some idea how important God considers our relationship to family members and other people, just consider this. In Exodus 20, God says we will be cursed for three and four generations for worshipping other gods; but, in Deuteronomy 23, He says we will be cursed for ten generations for creating a bastard or for incest.

A bastard is one conceived out of wedlock. Incest is sex with someone you are kin to.

Here are some curses that you may have started or which may have been handed to you by one or all of your ancestors.

Leviticus 20:13 - Homosexuals (male or female) often come from homes where there is an Ahab (dominated) father and a Jezebel (dominant) mother. They also come from homes where one or both parents may be closet homosexuals.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21; Numbers 5:27 - Adulterous women loose demons of adultery on their children along with all the shame, insecurity, hurt, sickness, and the tendency to be a victim, etc.

Deuteronomy 22:22-27; Leviticus 20:10 - Adulterous men loose demons of adultery on their children the same as women, along with the tendency to be cruel.

Deuteronomy 23:2 - Creating a bastard looses demons to lead your children away from God, to cause trouble between family members and create more bastards.

Deuteronomy 23:3 - Having incestuous relationships looses demons to cause all that is in the bastard curse and also hardness, hate, insanity and deformity.

Deuteronomy 27:21 - Sex with beasts creates a very degenerate mind, physical deformities and is a form of Satan worship. Satan hates us and wants to make us lower than the animals. Some families have animal physical features. When questioned once about clubfeet, one demon said he was there because a great grandfather had sex with horses.

If you have ever said something like this: "It isn’t anyone’s business what I do. I’m not hurting anyone but myself.” Think how you will answer God. Think how you will feel as you watch the payoff from Satan to your descendents.

I have begun to suspect that any sexual activity that is contrary to God’s law will bring curses for some number of generations. Read Revelation 21:8. We must overcome these things before we finish this life.

If you once transgress the realm of proper sex according to God, you have weakened your resistance to improper sex.

How can you tell if you have a demon in this area?

You may not have a demon if you are mildly enticed to sexual fantasy or sexual activity and you do not attempt to carry the fantasy out. You may be plagued by demons from past generations, whose job it is to continually harass you until you give in enough for them to get control over you in this area.

You do have one or more demons if the pressure mounts and you find it very difficult or impossible to resist the temptation. Demons exert pressure. (A lot of pressure = a lot of demons).

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

ACTIONS AND RESULTS

If you had sex before marriage, even with your future mate, you committed fornication. If you then married your sexual partner, your marriage and all your children were cursed. You have loosed demons to pressure all your children to this sin and to greater sexual sins.

If you conceived a child before marriage, you conceived a bastard. If you conceived a bastard child, you cursed your descendents for ten Bible generations (four hundred years). The descendents will tend to conceive bastards, generation after generation.

If you fornicated before marriage, you are likely to commit adultery after marriage.

If you had sex before marriage, you set a pattern for your children to commit fornication. Like father - like son; like mother - like daughter. The sins that the parents commit will tend to be repeated by the children and their descendents.

Sexual sins of the pastor will also tend to be repeated in his congregation. He looses sexual demons to rule over the church.

Jezebelic mothers and Ahab fathers will raise children who may become masculine women and effeminate men. Parents not setting the proper example in the home can cause homosexuality and lesbianism.

The man is head of home; the woman submits to the man in divine order. A man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

Many women do not submit properly to their husbands because the husband does not properly love the wife and submit properly to God. When men show harshness, lack of concern, do not value and are unkind to the wife, she will not only lose respect for him, but she will not trust his leadership.

Pornography can come into the home through television, radio or the printed word. Seeing, listening or reading pornography will cause the person to want to repeat these acts. Once seen, these scenes are extremely hard to wipe out of the conscious and sub-conscious mind.

Incest or rape by your relatives destroys the natural sex life with your mate. Rape can cause harlotry or frigidity. It produces hate, distrust and hardness.

Occult sex or sex orgies cause a person to become very demonized. Demons of succubus and incubus lead to depravity. Exposure and unclean sex loose sensual appetites and lewd emotions.

Bestiality can lead to horrible offspring. You may even create a type of demonic tie with that animal.

AIDS is a curse from God on those who practice homosexuality and fornication. It has become a terrible plague in our country. If you remain sexually pure, you can depend on God to protect you from AIDS.

We know a single man who went six years without a wet dream or masturbating. Satan even sent three beautiful demons of succubae to trap him; he didn’t fall for the trap.

A soul tie is formed with all sexual partners, animals, those of the same sex, and through homosexuality and lesbianism.

The only way the above patterns can be stopped is to practice deliverance-confession of sins, breaking curses and soul ties, casting out demons, and living a Scripturally disciplined life. Only then will your descendents be free to make their own choices.

You should enjoy the sexual affections of your mate. The bed is holy and undefiled. Your body belongs to your mate. Intercourse is the only godly form of sex. Sexual deviation such as oral sex and anal sex with your mate is demonic.

LIST OF SCRIPTURES

Look these up at your convenience. They illustrate different points in this lesson.

Exodus 20:4 & 32:1-25 (Do not make any graven images; Aaron makes a golden calf - Moses destroys it.)

Psalm 34:1 (I will bless and praise the Lord at all times continually.)

Matthew 5:32 (Do not divorce your wife or husband except for adultery.

John 8:34 (If you commit sin, you are the servant of sin.)

Romans 7:8; 8:7; 13:12; 14:13 (Is the law sin? Carnal mind is enmity; cast off works of darkness; do not place a stumbling block.)

I Corinthians 1:23; 5:1; 6:9; 8:9; 9:27; 10:5-8, 13; 14:14 (Christ crucified; father’s wife; unrighteous; liberty; subjection, idolaters; temptation; tongues.)

II Corinthians 5:16-17; 6:17; 10:5; 12:21 (New creature; separate; control thoughts, church is reproved.)

Ephesians 2:1-2; 4:29; 5:11, 19,26 (Quickened in God; communication corrupt; works of darkness; sanctify and cleanse.)

Philippians 4:8 (Think on these things.)

Colossians 3:5, 8 (Mortify your members; put off all these sins.)

I Thessalonians 4:5, 11; 5:17 (Lust of concupiscence; study to be quiet, pray without ceasing.)

I Timothy 5:22 (Keep thyself pure from sins.)

II Timothy 2:22; 3:4-6 (flee youthful lusts; lovers of pleasure more than God; lead captive silly women with divers lusts.)

Titus 2:3-5 (Old women to teach young women.)

Hebrews 13:4 (Marriage is honorable and bed undefiled.)

James 1:2-4; 4:7 (Trying of your faith works patience; submit to God then resist the devil.) John 1:9, 2:10, 14 (Confess our sins: love our brothers; you have overcome the wicked one.)

Jude 18-20 (Mockers, sensual, ungodly lusts; praying in the Holy Ghost.)

 

[RomanRevert]

Back to the original question … I find that the new Catechism (like many of the oft-misinterpreted documents of Vatican II) is full of ambiguities and is quite vague on many issues. Not sure of this is because the editor did not want to offend anyone or what. I prefer the good ole Baltimore Catechism because it is clear and unambiguous - if it offends someone, oh well… at least you know the answer and don’t have to try and figure out what is being said! It deals less with how a person feels at the time and more with the truths of the Sacraments and Grace. Good stuff. This is from Baltimore Catechism 4:

1. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister – not being a true priest – has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition – that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic – with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts – might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.

pax vobiscum

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

DEMONS THAT BREAK UP MARRIAGES

It is the duty of marriage breaking spirits to work in the husband and wife. One strong one is lust. In our society men have been programmed to lust for, and not truly love the wife. When a man uses this tactic on the wife, her ego is wounded. Because lust is seeking only it’s own gratification, the wife will feel used or violated, which leaves her feeling degraded. The person who is the object of lust will often become repulsed at having sexual contact with the spouse.

Lust, instead of love, often causes the wife to use sex as a bargaining device. This happens because the wife knows she is not being loved, just used as a prostitute, so she uses the person who has used her. When a woman uses these tactics on the man, his ego is wounded. As you can see, this is a Satanic game that continues the rejection process until there is only hate left.

Woe to the men and women who get caught in this trap and never get out. Woe to the children so educated about love, sex and marriage. Thus the true meaning of the sex act and the satisfaction it should bring can easily be destroyed for the couple. (Titus 2:3-5)

Just a question to the older women. Are you qualified to teach younger women how to love their husbands and children? (Titus 2:3-5) By your own life do you teach?

One of the most urgent needs of the American husband is to learn what God means when He says a man should love his wife. He will learn to control his sexual desires, and consider the wife’s needs and condition as well as his own.

Due to the wide spread of pornographic material, many men force their wives into oral, anal and other sexual perversions, often leading the wife into deviate sex.

Fear of homosexuality is great among American men. A large number of men have had minor or major contact with homosexuality as young boys.

Young boys often get their hands on pornographic material by accident and follow its instructions.

Here are some common traits in husbands who have had some homosexual contact. When he marries, he will not see the need to provide financially or spiritually for the wife and children. He often hates the wife and children, and feels they hamper him. He does not understand his responsibility for the family; neither does he care. He usually will not hold a steady job. They are all laden with fear that torments them.

Oral sex is a powerful spirit and will not give up easily. These spirits reside in the mouth, lips, tongue, taste buds, throat, sex organs and the mind. There must be sincere repentance followed by determined discipline. We have seen men recover from this spirit’s control.

Many young children are forced into oral sex by someone they trust or are kin to. Even though they hate it, they cannot stop the demon’s demand for it and will often continue to seek it even when no one forces them.

 

[ladybri77]

846 …they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

I do NOT believe that outside the church there is no salvation. There are many Protestants and evangelicals who Love the Lord and have accepted them into their hearts. If you look at the many scriptures where Jesus teaches this, you will see that this is the Truth, and many are saved who have accepted Him into their hearts.