Outside the Church there is no salvation

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steve_b said:
Those Orthodox who are in full communion with the chair of Peter are Catholic.
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I don’t think that answers my question.
Can a Catholic become Orthodox as far as the Church is concerned? Such a change would have nothing to do with their salvation?
 
lookaround said:
I don’t think that answers my question.
Can a Catholic become Orthodox as far as the Church is concerned?

No. It’s never permissable to go into schism AND it is condemned by scripture. Some Orthodox are in full communion with the chair of Peter. Therefore they are Catholic and NOT in schism as the EO.
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steve_b said:
Some Orthodox are in full communion with the chair of Peter. Therefore they are Catholic and NOT in schism as the EO.
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These are the Eastern Catholic, not the Orthodox (EO).
So the EO are outside of the Church.
 
lookaround said:
This is a rite, correct? (The Eastern Rite)
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I merely used this as an example of an Orthodox Church coming into full communion with the pope. And Fr Frank is an exception as a Russian Orthodox.

He said the following:
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We also believe that the Eastern Catholic Churches which are particular churches “sui juris” should make their own decisions about things such as married priesthood in the United States. We are also against reducing the Eastern Catholic Churches to mere “rites”.

However, if by “Uniatism” it is meant that it is necessary for salvation of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful to be in full communion with the Pope of Rome, then yes, in this sense of the word, we support “Uniatism”. The One True Church is only found in Union with the Vicar of Christ.
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look:
Joining that Church would just be switching rites? (which I think is permissible)
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Rites in the Catholic Church are equal in dignity. In the world, the Latin rite is the largest, about 98% of the Catholic Church. The other rites, make up the other 2%. As far as I know, if one was drawn to a different rite than the one they are in, it is not wrong. As I also understand, it is courtesy for a bishop in one rite to let the other bishop of the other rite know when an individual is changing rites.
 
Hi, Golfjack,

James provided excellent material. Your characterization of it as ‘ranting’ is very similar to Paul’s note on the Gospel being considered foolishness to some.
golfjack said:
James, there you go again with your ranting. Peace, Golfjack
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Try re-reading James’ material and this time, open your heart to the Spirit (as opposed to the so-called this recently minted ‘Spirit filled church’ you now cling to).

God bless
 
Hi, CentralFLJames,

Thanks for that post… Hmmmmmm … on second thought - that was an excellent post - thanks for putting it together so well!
CentralFLJames said:
Jean - please don’t be so blatantly hypocritical in your bible naivety and in your judgement of me OK? 😉

Jean, this is the same false argument EVERY heretic uses to justify their false ideology. “Don’t judge me” or “I have my own interpretation of the bible and you must not judge me”. Baloney. EVERY apostle judged heretical teachings, corrected them and judged them as heretics.

Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Christ died on the cross for those who would believe HIS message - NOT Luther’s message - NOT John Calvin’s message - NOT Wesley’s message etc.

If Luther and Calvin and Wesley et-al want to preach a new gospel and not be damned then let them put themselves on the cross, suffer for us and rise again before we listen to one whit of their pandering to the flesh and false doctrinal nonsense. These are not men sent from God - not a single sign or wonder was performed - not one. I most certainly will judge a false gospel - but I will leave it God to condemn their immortal souls.

Catholics, as holders of the true faith and even those who are being newly called to God are definitely also called and commanded to discern between good, evil, right, and wrong, based on what we DO know of the facts and actions of others. How could we possibly be held accountable for the sins of our brothers for not warning them about sins if we were not to judge?

Are we our brothers keeper? YES - and that requires sound judgement and discernment.
Are we our brothers executioner and condemner to hell? No. THAT is God’s job.

Learn the difference between judgement and condemnation. And do stop trying to hide behind the false doctrine of “not judging” just to escape the need to be be accountable to anyone but yourself while thinking you can embrace any error and escape judgement. You play hide and seek with the truth but your guilt will always bring Heaven’s Hound to sniff you out and find you. Accept the truth and reject the falshood - that requires discernment and judgement. If you don’t believe in judgement then you don’t believe in the absolutes of the condemnations of heaven and hell.

There is only one faith and one teaching and one path to salvation. Get on it.

James
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God bless
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Golfjack,

James provided excellent material. Your characterization of it as ‘ranting’ is very similar to Paul’s note on the Gospel being considered foolishness to some.

Try re-reading James’ material and this time, open your heart to the Spirit (as opposed to the so-called this recently minted ‘Spirit filled church’ you now cling to).

God bless
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Agreed, A quote from Augustine may also pertain: “If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.”
  • St. Augustine ". Personally, I don’t mind acquiescing to 2000 years of teaching authority.
 
steve_b said:
Those Orthodox who are in full communion with the chair of Peter are Catholic.
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Well, actually the 22 Rites, 21 Eastern and Oriental Rites and one Latin Rite, comprise the same unified Catholic Church. It’s the same Faith, but different devotional practices and liturgical traditions. However, the Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with the Holy Father in Rome, are are a collection of churches that schismated from the Catholic Church in the 1400’s (some say 1054 A.D., but this is technically incorrect). Eastern Catholic Rites, such as the Marionite or Coptic Catholics, are a part of the one Catholic Church in communion with the Pope, but the schismatic Eastern Orthodox churches remain divided from the Church and also from each other, although they have retained apostolic succession and a true understanding of the Eucharist and other Sacraments even after they broke away from the Church.
 
Detales said:
PJM and Central, this raises a big concern for me. Now that the necessities have been defined by Central, do we not have an urgent obligation? Should we not drop everything and go find the other peoples in the galaxy and beyond who have not heard of Jesus? Should we not at least send some sort of radio clarification so that the potiential listeners of the multitude of evangelical broadcast media get their stories straight? I am at odds as to how to deal with this issue of all the billions of souls out there who do not know of the right teaching. How do we deal with this???

BD
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Because your such a swell guy,we’ll make it easy on you. How about you start with yourself:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,
 
NO church will save us. Only the relationship we form between us, personally, and Jesus Christ. Belief on Him as God, TRUST Him, do not rely on good works, your bring born again will naturally have you doing good works AS A RESULT of The Holy Spirit being inside you all.

we cannot “earn” our way to heaven. that would suggest what Jesus did wasn’t good enough. blasphemy.

dont confess. REPENT. and mean it.

God Bless.
 
Matariel said:
Well, actually the 22 Rites, 21 Eastern and Oriental Rites and one Latin Rite, comprise the same unified Catholic Church. It’s the same Faith, but different devotional practices and liturgical traditions. However, the Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with the Holy Father in Rome, are are a collection of churches that schismated from the Catholic Church in the 1400’s (some say 1054 A.D., but this is technically incorrect). Eastern Catholic Rites, such as the Marionite or Coptic Catholics, are a part of the one Catholic Church in communion with the Pope, but the schismatic Eastern Orthodox churches remain divided from the Church and also from each other, although they have retained apostolic succession and a true understanding of the Eucharist and other Sacraments even after they broke away from the Church.
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Isn’t this what I said? Maybe I wasn’t clear.
%between%
Fr Frank who I quoted addresses your last point
russiancatholic.blogspot.com/2009/05/fr-chrysostom-frank-russian-orthodox.html%between%
 
Revelation_17 said:
NO church will save us. Only the relationship we form between us, personally, and Jesus Christ. Belief on Him as God, TRUST Him, do not rely on good works, your bring born again will naturally have you doing good works AS A RESULT of The Holy Spirit being inside you all.

we cannot “earn” our way to heaven. that would suggest what Jesus did wasn’t good enough. blasphemy.

dont confess. REPENT. and mean it.

God Bless.
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This is an inaccurate statement. The term “The Church” means precisely ONE CHURCH - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - aka The Catholic Church. So your statement is true for those individuals (in the vulgar notions of churches plural) who are not in The Catholic Church - these will not be saved by the Church and it is only through personal consent to The Divine Mercy that these others have any chance of being fully pulled by Jesus into His Catholic Church - the Body of Christ - and be saved.

Yes, Jesus saves - but He saves ONLY through His Church. There is not distinction between Bride and Groom - since the two are joined “as one” in the marriage of Jesus with His Church and become One in God. So you simply can not seperate Jesus from His Church, his bride, without attempting to divide The Trinity against itself. Impossible. There is no physical or spiritual way to love Jesus without also loving His Church - His Bride. And if you think you can divide one from the other by preaching so then you speak “a lie of man” and that my friend is not compatible with one of the elect and such a false work is proclaiming a false gospel and if unrepentant will earn you the wage of a heretic.

James
 
Hi, Revelaton_17

Hard to know just where to begin… 😃 But, I’ll give it a shot.

You are soooooooooooo right… NO church will save you - one must cooperate with the Grace of God. Let’s see what I can do with the rest of your material…😃
Revelation_17 said:
NO church will save us. Only the relationship we form between us, personally, and Jesus Christ.
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Actually, while a ‘relationship’ sounds very contemporary - it really isn’t what Christ was stressing when He spoke to His Apostles. For example:

1.) John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments…” And, while it could be argued that one could not do this without a relationship with Christ - it is absolutely surprising the misinformation out there! Actually, there was misinformation durng the time of Christ - and Christ address it: Matt 7:21-23 “…not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven…” Then there was this Pharisee and his famous prayer as recorded in Luke 18:11 “Lord, I give you thanks that I am not like the rest of men…” Chances are, this guy would argue that he had a relationship with God … and, I am sure he thought so. Unfortunately, it wasn’t all it could have been - and, according to Christ, this will be a real disappointment.

2.) Luke 10:25-37 The parable of the good Samaritan was a rather dramatic way for Christ to convey to the Jews who absolutely hated the Samaritans what was expected in serving our fellow man, if we are to follow Christ. While this really could not be done without a ‘relationship’ - the term itself is really rather weak and seriously anemic when it comes to developing a meaningful definition.

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Revelation_17 said:
Belief on Him as God, TRUST Him, do not rely on good works, your bring born again will naturally have you doing good works
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I really do not think anyone will argue that we must believe in God …ah…and, that would be Faith. And, no one is going to argue against have Trust in God’s Word. The snag comes in when you actually read that Word and suddenly realize Chirst is requiring us to DO SOMETHING (and that would be a WORK! :eek:) FOR OTHERS. For example:

1.) Matt 25:46 The Last Judgment as recorded by Matthew is rather specific as to what is being asked (and, this does not appear to be an exhaustive list…:eek: ) Here we find the Lord note who did (and did not do…) specific acts of charity for the less fortunate. There is a hint that the damned would have rendered charity to Christ IF THEY RECOGNIZED Him … but, their recognition was not one of the criteria God used! These recorded acts of charity would qualify as a WORK.

2.) Matt 24: 45-51 Here we have two servants who had been left in charge of their Master’s property. In both cases the servants are judged on how well they WORKed at taking care of the household they had been left to supervise. The first was called “…Faithful and prudent…” and was well rewarded. The other turned out to be a genuine low-life and was judged accordingly. Goodness! Everywhere you look at Christ’s Words - He is telling us that we had been have something positive we have done for our neighbor that we have channeled from our Faith.

The truth is, the first guy to come up with this “Faith alone” new gospel was Luther and those who followed him over the edge as he and they left the Church founded by Jesus Christ - on Peter as the rock (Matt 16:18) - and, that would be the Catholic Church! There really are many more examples of Faith and Words being joined so as to become a focused belief system as Christ directed us. Christ never isolated Faith as the single entity when you look at everything He said.
Revelation_17 said:
… your bring born again will naturally have you doing good works AS A RESULT of The Holy Spirit being inside you all.
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There really is nothing ‘natural’ about the Supernatural. There is nothing ‘natural’ about the Holy Spirit. Now, if this is an awkward way for you to reach out to James 2 … well… OK - but, really there is a much easier way without trying that new gospel of 'Faith Alone".
Revelation_17 said:
we cannot “earn” our way to heaven. that would suggest what Jesus did wasn’t good enough. blasphemy.
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You may be interested in knowing that the Catholic Church has NEVER TAUGHT that you can ‘earn’ your way to heaven. Grace from God is freely given - it is not a debt that God has to pay us for doing work. So, I think we are on the same page on that one…🙂

Ah, ‘blasphemy’ … now, if that is your concern, you may want to check this out…
Revelation_17 said:
dont confess. REPENT. and mean it.
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Now, I do not want to put too fine a point on this … but Christ went to all the ‘trouble’ of giving us the ability to have our sins forgiven by going to the men he appointed to do this (and you can find this in John 20:23…🙂 ) I would be concerned about blasphemy in counseling others that this great gift of Confession is not to be used - rather ignore the method Christ has established and try your own method! That really sounds very ungrateful for what God has done for us. Think about this - our proper response should be one of gratitude for all of God’s Gifts - and, this is certainly one we can be most grateful for!

In summary: there is no ‘free lunch’. While God’s Grace is totally free and we have no claim on it - we can (and, actually are expected to…) ask for it. We are expected to take His Gifts and put them to work in providing charity to our neighbor in whatever way we can. This is the ‘wedding’ of Faith and Works.

God bless
 
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