Outside the "church"

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GandalfTheWhite said:
Fine, but you need to do much more that just this. Perhaps you have some biblical quotes that somehow support your position…
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1 Corinthians 3:16 - We are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in us because we are bought with a price. Everyone who has been purchased (redeemed) by the blood of Christ also has the Spirit of God dwelling in him.

Romans 8:9 - We should be led by the Spirit of God. If the Spirit of God (Christ) does not dwell in us, we do not belong to God.

Clearly the Spirit does dwell in people today. In fact, the Spirit dwells in ALL true children of God, and He begins to dwell in us at the moment we become God’s children (not at some later point).

[See also Acts 2:38; 5:32; James 4:5; Rom. 5:5; Eph. 5:18.]
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
Fine, but you need to do much more that just this. Perhaps you have some biblical quotes that somehow support your position…
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AND>>>>>
john 14:26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.
john 15:26
‘When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf.
john 16:7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
1 Corinthians 3:16 - We are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in us because we are bought with a price. Everyone who has been purchased (redeemed) by the blood of Christ also has the Spirit of God dwelling in him.

Romans 8:9 - We should be led by the Spirit of God. If the Spirit of God (Christ) does not dwell in us, we do not belong to God.

Clearly the Spirit does dwell in people today. In fact, the Spirit dwells in ALL true children of God, and He begins to dwell in us at the moment we become God’s children (not at some later point).

[See also Acts 2:38; 5:32; James 4:5; Rom. 5:5; Eph. 5:18.]
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Fine, that’s what the Church teaches (obviously). Now, how does that refute my statement that Peter (and his sicessors) is the Vicars of Christ and how does it show that it is actually solely the ‘job’ of the Holy Spirit?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
HOW DOES THIS>>>

NOT CONTRADICT THIS>>>>>
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Jesus Christ be praised.

Dear myfavoritmartin:

Do you have the original texts that you are citing? I am not sure who made the translations or whether they are reliable. If we are going to argue about contradiction and implication, it would be much easier if we had the text rather than a translation.

Any notes you have on context and circumstance of the statement would also be helpful.

Finally, one should not underestimate the pastoral authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. The fact of the matter is that different decisions about how to restore unity are within the purview of the “Keys of the Kingdom” and the power to “bind and loose.” At one time a scourge of anathema may be better, at others the patience of generous acceptance. Hence, ultimately the border of where the “limits of the Church” are can be changed by the pastoral judgment of the Pope.

This is apparently one of the things that Popes John XXIII and Paul VI did in conjunction with the Second Vatican Council.

Salvation is a personal act, not a mechanical procedure. The shepherds appointed by Christ to administer and nurture His people have power to change their approach, depending on their judgment of what will be most effective in reaching God’s goals, within the limits of what has been set by God and cannot be changed.

Hence, calling a Baptist or a Presbyterian a heretic in order to cause him to repent can be used at one time; calling members of the same groups at a later time “separated brethren” and honoring them with the name of Christian and granting them partial or informal membership in the Catholic Church are within the scope of changes that a loving parent may try to save rebellious children – especially when the children have such different temperaments as those of the 1800s and those of the 1900s.

The peace of Christ be with us all.

John Hiner
 
I think protestants who believe the church is the whore of babylon and the pope antichrist will end up in hell…because they consciously reject the church…The one who are ignorant of the Catholic Church are the ones who have possible salvation…because of ignorance,
 
Do we forget that it is God [faher Son and Holy Spirit] who sits in judgement and determines the salvation of all mankind?

Jesus establihed a church and gave it a commision to go, spread the good news of salvation, making disciples over aall the earth. The Church has been doing that for 2000 years…

Whe the Roman Empire was it its height most of the known [to Christians] woorld comprised of Europe, Asia and Africa…those early Christians thought they were reaching the ends of earth [the four corners]… Imagine their surprise witht he discovery of the New World and all of the peoples found there!

The role of the Church is to preach the message handed to her by Jesus…Preach the Gospel and make disciples of all peoples. Jesus says He is the Way, the Truth and the Life…The CHurch cannot tell you there is an alternative Way, and alternative Truth or an alternative path to Eternal Life…but the Church cannot tell God who gets in and who does not…that is the perview of God. It is not for any member of this forum to decides who gets into Heaven and who gets condemed to Hell…

The Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father - theTriune God decides and that is what the Church teaches…The Church teaches what it knows to be the path to God, it accepts that even those who profess the faith can loose salvation due to sin and it knows that God will judge the life [and the merits of that life] of all human kind. That judgement will be based upon the knowledge and understanding that the person had…

St Paul refers to the law that is written into the hearts of all mankind…one can be circumsized on their body but their hearts are dead so that they are as one u-circumsized. Similarly one can be un-circumsized in bidy bit circumsized in their hearts [Read the Letter to the Romans]. The same can be true for Christians and non-Christians…

The Church can only pass on what has been given to it…it can’t teach alternative paths!

Only God decides who is saved and who is not…
 
myfavoritmartin said:
AND>>>>>
john 14:26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.
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And whom has the Holy Spirit taught everything? You? Me?

The answer is, the Church. The Magisterium.
 
Renton405 said:
I think protestants who believe the church is the whore of babylon and the pope antichrist will end up in hell…because they consciously reject the church…The one who are ignorant of the Catholic Church are the ones who have possible salvation…because of ignorance,
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I think God is the one who decides who will end up in hell. The protestants who believe the RCC is the whore of babylon and that the Pope is the anti-Christ believe that because they are told that in Chick Tracts. They are in fact ignorant of what the Church actually teaches because they are spoon-fed anti-Catholicism from the pulpit. One can only consciously reject the Church (and subsequently suffer for it) if they are told the truth about the Church and still reject her. What they reject is not the True Church, but the ‘Jack Chick’ version of Catholicism, a totally different religion altogether.

The Jewish leaders who called for Christ to be put to death would not have done so if they knew who He really was. Jesus prayed for the Father to forgive them. We need to do the same for our separated brethren who believe that Chick Tracts are true.
 
Renton405 said:
I think protestants who believe the church is the whore of babylon and the pope antichrist will end up in hell…,
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Renton405 you would be wise to TEST all things and hold fast what is good, blanket statements like the one above will only serve to blind you further…

A Holy Spirit indwelt born-again Christian can follow these following instructions and the LORDS greatest commands and still, very easily believe that your statements above are clearly a possibility. So before you begin judging someone to hell you should pray ceaselessly about what they’ve said and test all things and hold fast to what is good.
1 Thess 5:21
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
 
Renton405 said:
I think protestants who believe the church is the whore of babylon and the pope antichrist will end up in hell…because they consciously reject the church…The one who are ignorant of the Catholic Church are the ones who have possible salvation…because of ignorance,
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I don’t claim to know their final end , but I leave them to God.

Anyone who is dumb enough to actually believe that junk probably has all kinds of conspiracy theories as well…most of which are not worthy of belief either.

As for “testing all things…” I did… and that is precisely why I am Catholic.
 
VociMike said:
And whom has the Holy Spirit taught everything? You? Me?

The answer is, the Church. The Magisterium.
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Everything Mike? gimme a break! Ask the magisterium when judgement day will be.

If Peter didn’t know everything how do you presume the magisterium does.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Everything Mike? gimme a break! Ask the magisterium when judgement day will be.

If Peter didn’t know everything how do you presume the magisterium does.
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Silly objection. “Everything” obviously means everything that God has revealed.

Who says Peter didn’t know everything? There is no general revelation after the apostles, you know.
 
VociMike said:
Silly objection. “Everything” obviously means everything that God has revealed.

Who says Peter didn’t know everything? There is no general revelation after the apostles, you know.
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So if the magisterium knows everything God has revealed, then why is it that the HS indwells in all born again believers??
 
Back to the topic…
I understand yet refuse to submit to ROME.
I believe faith alone in Christ alone will be lead me to salvation.
Do I qualify for NO salvation outside the “Catholic Church” as one of your pontiffs stated?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I believe faith alone in Christ alone will be lead me to salvation.
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Lead? Yes.
As the old say goes: You can lead a horse to the water…
Perserverence in obeying the commandments allows us to drink of it. This includes obeying the ones Christ left in charge.
 
davidv said:
Lead? Yes.
As the old say goes: You can lead a horse to the water…
Perserverence in obeying the commandments allows us to drink of it. This includes obeying the ones Christ left in charge.
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Sure are alot of Minnesotans on here, I thought that was Luthers territory.

Belief in Christ death and Resurrection…Making Christ the LORD of your life is salvation.
 
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