Yeah I know everything God has revealed to me also…
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
Actually, as a ‘protestant’ I believe that outside CHRIST there is no salvation. The ‘church’ has nothing to do with it. There are those of us who may go to and belong to a church, even be confirmed and baptized, but if they are not right with God and are luke warm or even cold and don’t believe then their salvation is not solid. It is only by God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit that we are saved. To put this on anything or anyone else is blasphemous in my opinion.
What is your definition of belonging to Christ’s Church?
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
My point was that Christ is the ONLY avenue to salvation. Belonging to His Church is to be part of the Body of Christ. Which is formed of protestants AND catholics. Each member has a different ‘job’ or function. We may do things differently but we understand that Christ’s sacrifice is what brings us to salvation’s door. Not the church.
I don’t reject Christ’s Church. I am part of it just as you are. I don’t appreciate you telling me that I am rejecting Christ when I live my life as best I can to follow Him and Him only. Show a little more charity please. I don’t go around accusing you guys of this.
You’re making a false distinction between Christ and His Church. When Saul persecuted the Church, Christ asked “why do you persecute me?” Just as there is no salvation outside of Christ, there is also no salvation outside of His Church.
There were many different types of “christians” throughout every century, not just catholicism. Even some of the early church fathers disagreed on many things. These “christians” were known as heriticts, but nevertheless there were many many people who claimed to have the truth of the apostles who were not Catholic. It’s too simplistic to say there was only Catholicism for 1500 years.
I think you probably need to sit down with your catechism and see what it actually means before making a statement like that.
From the CCC:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
The Church contains everything that was ever known about Christs life - its also His Body in a very real sense. Therein is contained everything one needs for Life.
I understand everything you are saying, and I’ve read the catechism on this section over and over again, thinking, meditateing. The problem is that from different Catholics I get different answers. What does it mean to “know?” Are you saying that if one person never hears the Catholic gospel, yet lives a Godly life, then he/she can obtain salvation? I believe that. But what about this: If someone who already lives a Godly life, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are clearly shown in that person’s life, yet he/she has heard about Catholicism and though believes some of its teachings, still cannot accept all because he/she cannot see it in scripture or even in early church teachings (from his/her point of veiw at least) and so remains lutheren, or methodist, or a mormon, or whatever, is that person not then saved because they have heard and yet didn’t call themselves “Catholic?” If so, then how can they not be saved because they would not really “know.” I suspect that is one “knows” what the truth is, he will either accept it and it will show in his life, or the person will reject it and ALSO produce no fruits of the Holy Spirit, exactly how the pharisees lived. They rejected the truth, and it showed in their actions.I think you probably need to sit down with your catechism and see what it actually means before making a statement like that.
Some ultra-traditionalists will interpret this with an agenda similar to some of the anti-Catholics, but what the Church actually says makes a great deal more sense and is anything but “ridiculous, evil, and unGodly”
From the CCC:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
That link to the CC will take you to the whole section of Catechism that talks about the church. Too often the problem is that people will not read the entire section (and footnotes even) for context and go off half-cocked without a real understanding of what we are teaching. (I’m not saying that about you BTW, just that I think if you read all this carefully your opinion will change for the better.)
Like you, I think there are people who want to take this the wrong way in order to give themselves one more excuse to avoid coming into or home to the Catholic faith.
I agree with you that it’s pretty sad.
What does it mean to “know?” Are you saying that if one person never hears the Catholic gospel, yet lives a Godly life, then he/she can obtain salvation? I believe that. But what about this: If someone who already lives a Godly life, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are clearly shown in that person’s life, yet he/she has heard about Catholicism and though believes some of its teachings, still cannot accept all because he/she cannot see it in scripture or even in early church teachings (from his/her point of view at least) and so remains Lutheran, or methodist, or a Mormon, or whatever, is that person not then saved because they have heard and yet didn’t call themselves “Catholic?” If so, then how can they not be saved because they would not really “know.” I suspect that is one “knows” what the truth is, he will either accept it and it will show in his life, or the person will reject it and ALSO produce no fruits of the Holy Spirit, exactly how the pharisees lived. They rejected the truth, and it showed in their actions.
