You have made some good points. In many geographical areas, the ethnincicity changes from generation to generation. I grew up in the Hammond-Gary area of Indiana, more or less across the street from Chicago. When I was a child and in High school many of the families in my areas were 1st or 2nd generation eastern Europeans. I left in the mid-1970’s. Most people who live there now are 2 or 3 generations removed from that group of people that were there in the 1960’s or 1970’s, or have moved in from outside the region. They don’t have the same “ethnic” connection or don’t wish to identify with it as they as assimilated in to their larger surrounding culture. The accent there is now only distinct with the older folks. The younger regeneration of the region pretty much sound like everyone else in the midwest. The churches have gradually adapted along with changes in the population. I suspect that many eastern Catholic Churches while being small in numbers and with many of the members now being former Roman Catholics,they have no doubt lost some of the original tradition with the influx of the new members RC tradition has been assimilated. This is not in all probability “a malicious overthrow” kind of way, but a change none-the-because of the change in the of the new make-up of the membership of the church.Ah, a fellow C-lander!
OK.
I will say that my experience is not that broad to be able to comment upon it, you may be right.
I recall that there were a few Croatian Catholic parishes too. The one I am thinking of prominently put that information on the sign out in front. There is also a Korean Catholic parish somewhere in the NW suburbs, Des Plaines perhaps?
As to the Ruthenians, I think the pressure has been coming from inside the group. Some want to preserve characteristics of the ethnicity, and some seem to want to forget it. Probably the people who want to damp it down a bit are hoping to see the church’s prospects for expansion improve. But realistically most of the Nash are several generations into the USA already, many have often already intermarried with RC and almost all are very comfortable with English. For such people Church Slavonic may have a nostalgic appeal, much like Latin would have in the RC, but that is only one small aspect of the Ruthenian tradition and is a separate issue from ethnicity.
There is a Korean Catholic parish in Chicago listed here:I recall that there were a few Croatian Catholic parishes too. The one I am thinking of prominently put that information on the sign out in front. There is also a Korean Catholic parish somewhere in the NW suburbs, Des Plaines perhaps?
Why is it people like you don’t bother to read so that you can understand what he is actually saying…Why is it that whenever a Roman comes to one of churches and finds customs and traditions they’re not familiar with it’s a problem and they set out to change us??
How would they feel if we thought that THEY were the problem and we set out to change them??
Are you married…?Thats fine, it is complicated. I am not asking for them to meet me in the cultural middle. I’m just wondering how people here who have moved to an Eastern parish have integrated themselves amidst the cultural disconnect. I want to be viewed as part of the parish and not to feel as merely a visitor.
As an immigrant to Canada myself, I knew that when I first stepped into the beautiful Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary Ukrainian Catholic church in Calgary that I was going to experience something different both culturally and liturgically (I’m ethnically Filipino of the Roman Rite). Understandably I attend the English Divine Liturgy when I visit, but I’ve found the Ukrainians to be especially warm and welcoming, but I know that my wife and I stick out as brown-skinned Filipinos in a sea of Ukrainians. It did not feel uncomfortable, and I just absolutely love the church and the Liturgy, and it felt, well, Catholic.During this Advent and Christmas season, it has dawned on me more than ever that the parish I am trying to become a part of is very strong in their ethnicity. I wonder how many of you who have joined an Eastern Catholic parish feels this and have overcome it? The other issue here is in Canada, unlike in the United States, the way of intigration is not shedding your culture. In America, you become American. In Canada you are encouraged to keep your previous cultural heritage and add it to the mosaic of Canadians. This works well sometimes, and sometimes it has its own faults. One problem is the division among Canadians when it comes to ethnicity and one may feel truly out of place among others of a certain cultural background. The parish is one of the places you’d feel this the most. Many Roman Catholic parishes here are predominantly Filipino. But my desire and growing love for the Byzantine Rite means I have to go to a parish that is almost entirely Ukrainian. From language to cultural celebrations, there are many times I do not feel a part of it.
Now, I’m glad the subdeacon who’s very friendly, is also non-Ukrainian. But sometimes I wonder if he becomes a Deacon and gets assigned somewhere else, what then? Its easy to say that we go there for God. But what use is communal worship if you don’t feel a part of the community?
Personally, I don’t see it that way at all. Never have. I have to agree with the following on that point:The problem with an ethnic parish is that it creates a ghetto that seperates the people from the surrounding culture. The parish maintains a culture of a foreign country that is vastly different than that of its own country. It will never gain any new parishioners - unless they are more immigrants - because the people in the area are made to feel out of place in a parish that is completely foreign to them.
In my opinion Constantine the Ethnicity of Eastern parishes is Not a problem but a STRENGTH. I have seen over and over non ethnic folks being welcomed into VERY ethnic parishes because the non ethnics showed an interest in learning about the ethnicity.
The Polish parishes then must be doing something right. Generally they have much higher Church attendance on a percentage basis than the English crowd. The problem as I see it is that too many Americans only know English, if that much.A lot of people say that Eastern parishes are too ethnic. I have felt more welcome by priests at a Ukrainian Catholic parish than I have at the Polish Latin rite parish where I was originally baptized. Additionally, ALL the Ukrainian priests speak English and are available for confession in English, while at the Latin rite parishes near me there are at least two priests who DO NOT know English. Those parishes provide more confessions for Polish people than for the English speakers.
They are doing something wrong. Once Polish families integrate into American society and lose the Polish language, they also lose the Catholic Faith, like happened with my family. In my view confessions should be offered before all Masses. It would only take 20 extra minutes of the priest’s time.The Polish parishes then must be doing something right.
I think that’s an exception. Most Polish-speaking people I know go to church whether they’re divorced and remarried, adulterers, etc. They love their own little communities and the priest is their best friend. Of course some of the older ones don’t go every Sunday but generally they are much stronger in faith than the English-speaking crowds who rarely ask for confessions. I’ll agree with you on confessions before Mass.They are doing something wrong. Once Polish families integrate into American society and lose the Polish language, they also lose the Catholic Faith, like happened with my family. In my view confessions should be offered before all Masses. It would only take 20 extra minutes of the priest’s time.
Now that you mention it, things aren’t the way they were 50 years ago. During and after the war, many of the Polish people had no where to go but to non-Polish countries. (My father was under British command and thus ended up in England.) And they were basically personae non gratae and had to stick together. Maybe because of the war veterans dying off or political influences they’ve become more Americanized and thus their faith has been weakened. Just observations, mind you.Unfortunately I think it is the rule, not exclusively for Poles though. For example I went to Catholic school from K-12. Of all of my former classmates that I have met over the years TWO of them go to Church on Sundays. The modernism in the Catholic school system in the 80’s and 90’s took a large death toll.
I went to school in Chicago, and attended my first Orthodox liturgy there at All Saints under Fr. Patrick Reardon. Have you attended there by chance? I absolutely loved that parish!Ah, a fellow C-lander!
OK.
I will say that my experience is not that broad to be able to comment upon it, you may be right.
I recall that there were a few Croatian Catholic parishes too. The one I am thinking of prominently put that information on the sign out in front. There is also a Korean Catholic parish somewhere in the NW suburbs, Des Plaines perhaps?
As to the Ruthenians, I think the pressure has been coming from inside the group. Some want to preserve characteristics of the ethnicity, and some seem to want to forget it. Probably the people who want to damp it down a bit are hoping to see the church’s prospects for expansion improve. But realistically most of the Nash are several generations into the USA already, many have often already intermarried with RC and almost all are very comfortable with English. For such people Church Slavonic may have a nostalgic appeal, much like Latin would have in the RC, but that is only one small aspect of the Ruthenian tradition and is a separate issue from ethnicity.
Sorry i can’t agree here. I grew up in a town that has a very large Polish population…both new immigrants and Polish folks who have been here for generations. I dont know what it is these Polish parishes do…but they ARE doing something right…either the parish or the families. The Polish parishes I have experienced have a MUCH higher rate of retention of the young…not only at mass, but folks who are actually involved in the parish. And I’m talking about Polish folks who dont speak Polish as well as those who do.They are doing something wrong. Once Polish families integrate into American society and lose the Polish language, they also lose the Catholic Faith, like happened with my family. In my view confessions should be offered before all Masses. It would only take 20 extra minutes of the priest’s time.
Since Chicago is still part of the USA, I don’t think it is legitimate at all to “frown on any English spoken.” :nope:I know of Latin Rite churches in the Chicago area who frown on any English spoken there. Perfectly legitimate.
I disagree. What’s that little bit about separation of church and state, inter alia?Since Chicago is still part of the USA, I don’t think it is legitimate at all to “frown on any English spoken.” :nope: