Overwhelming evidence for Design?

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Alright I’ll read everything over and try to get a handle on where the explanations are rational in view of the subject and may get back. ( can’t say)…
(.I like taking time so thanks ahead for any possible patience.👍
 
We are not entitled to assume all events occur “naturally”…
We are entitled to assume whatever we want, by way of hypothesis. Then our job is to expand upon whatever hypothesis we might have chosen and see how well it works out.
 
We are entitled to assume whatever we want, by way of hypothesis. Then our job is to expand upon whatever hypothesis we might have chosen and see how well it works out.
We are not entitled to assume whatever we** want** but whatever we **believe **may be true! Sometimes we may not want to believe something but the evidence in its favour is too compelling to ignore - and sometimes we may want to believe something but the evidence against it is too compelling to ignore - and sometimes what we want happily coincides with the evidence (unless it unhappily turns out to be false). 😉
 
Alright I’ll read everything over and try to get a handle on where the explanations are rational in view of the subject and may get back. ( can’t say)…
(I like taking time so thanks ahead for any possible patience.
No need to hurry. In philosophy there is no deadline. 😉
 
I’m beginning to understand this viewpoint and surprised because ever since I was a kid (Catholic) I never thought things came about this way and still don’t…
It’s good to hear that you don’t accept the materialist view on origins. At the same time, it’s good to have solid reasons for your acceptance of design.
Its almost like saying the Creator waved his hand across the horizon and life came about.
That’s a criticism of the kind we see from atheists quite often. It’s meant to ridicule – “You think God waved His hand and then worked a magic trick to create things?”
But obviously, you don’t think like that about God.
It’s like asking: “Does God live in the sky and have a long beard?”

As I said before, the challenge comes back to you. As you mentioned, you’re a professing, believing Catholic. You reject the materialist-reductionist idea that there is no design and only blind, unintelligent matter through chance is the explanation for all life on earth. So, you have to support your ideas with some evidence.

Many Catholics struggle with this. I attended Catholic schools for 14 years and covered a range of studies in science and philosophy. I can say that I was never introduced to the problems with modern scientific claims. It was assumed that “if science said it, it was right”.
If this is true what about all the billion years preparing the way, the moon, the solar system itself making it possible…the sun we have…everything just right requiring the waving hand of God “each” step of the way, and if not, why not.
This is going beyond the design argument. You’re asking about how God did things – and using the standard language and bias of atheistic science to approach it. If you want to pursue the question of what God did and how He did it – those are theological and mystical understandings. Science can show some things – but science is very limited. To understand how God created, you have to know about God - His power and capabilities. We use revelation to know that – and we use the great interpreters of revelation – the fathers, saints, doctors of the Church. We can learn some things about God through philosophy also.
…so why even bother with interruptions using a God figure where there appears to be only a missing link which is expected to be explainable …?
First of all, it’s not explainable. I think you see that. Secondly, we cannot reject the design proposal on the basis that “someday science may find a different answer”. That would be incorrect since we’re looking for “the best explanation we have”. Today, the best explanation is design – as we have shown. Science does not have a plausible explanation for the many things we’ve discussed.
Not trying to be difficult but the way I see it, the unfolding nature of life a thing which we attribute to ourselves, nature, stable consequence, and all virtually known is anything but apart from the whole development of itself …Its not only plausible it seems expected.
You’re reflecting on what you observe, and that’s fine. A caterpillar becomes a cocoon and through metamorphisis, a butterfly emerges. But that’s not the question we’re looking at – instead, we’re looking at the origin for that kind of process. To merely “expect” that things will happen is not an explanation for why they happen that way.
Not arguing this, what Im trying to figure out is how others believe things came about…as in God waving his hand over the earth.
We have to establish the first point before moving to others. Thus far, you seem to struggle with the idea that the materialist story of origins is not true. You have already said you don’t accept it, but now you keep asking about “God waving his hand”. So, it’s you who don’t have an answer. At each Mass you profess that God is the creator of all things visible and invisible. What does that mean? Why would you ridicule your own beliefs claiming that “God doesn’t wave His hand”?
This is the doctrine of Creation – which most Catholics have not been taught about, or have been incorrectly taught as unnecessary. What did God create? How did He create it? Those are questions you could pursue.
But you won’t make any progress if you continue to revert to the materialist story about how everything emerged through blind, unintelligent randomness from the big-bang to the first molecules to all of life on earth. You have to establish - to yourself - that you don’t accept that, and therefore there is a different answer. Science won’t like that, but you have to make a stand - by faith.
If science could explain all origins and all the development of the universe, then the God proposal wouldn’t have much value or meaning.
That’s the biggest problem I see with people of faith today. They profess belief God, but they really don’t think God can or will actually do anything at all. Some will even deny miracles because they’re afraid that means God “interferes” – and many are intimidated by the ridicule that materialist science offers believers.
 
Reggie: Thanks for the warm welcome! I thought I might have broken a rule by posting about evolution vs. design/creation. I just love this thread!

For many years in my youth and young adult, I was educated by Dominicans sisters and prayed to become one. I contacted a number of Dominican groups, but God had other plans. I am a Benedictine. But, I know the Dominican Sisters of Mary as they live right down the street from us. Great group of sisters! I also taught in their schools for a number of years. Their community is growing by leaps and bounds!
Thanks for your reply, Sister. Ann Arbor is doubly blessed to have both your Benedictine community - and the Dominicans. Contemplation and teaching are working so well together. 🙂
I’m glad you’re enjoying this thread also. It’s my favorite.
 
Sometimes we become so immersed in details it’s good to stand back and contemplate the panorama (of reality):
  1. Things exist.
  2. There is no obvious explanation for their existence.
  3. They need not exist.
  4. It is unreasonable not to search for an explanation.
  5. But what is an “explanation”?
  6. An explanation increases our understanding.
  7. What do we understand to begin with?
  8. Nothing!
  9. But if we understand nothing we cannot understand anything!
  10. If we cannot understand anything we are wasting our time and energy!
  11. To believe we understand nothing is self-contradictory.
  12. If we cannot understand anything we cannot understand that we understand nothing!
  13. Therefore we understand something!
  14. How do we understand something?
  15. By using our power of understanding!
  16. How can we be sure our power of understanding is reliable?
  17. We have proved our power of understanding is indispensable.
  18. The success of science is further evidence that our power of understanding is reliable.
  19. What else can we prove?
  20. That we exist.
  21. How do we exist?
  22. We don’t understand how we exist!
  23. Then how can we be sure we exist?
  24. Because our power of understanding cannot exist by itself.
  25. How can we be sure our power of understanding cannot exist by itself?
  26. Because we have no experience of anything that exists by itself.
  27. We also know we are responsible for the success of science.
  28. What are we?
  29. We don’t know!
  30. Don’t we know anything about what we are?
To be continued… 🙂

My aim in this post is to show the fundamental reality of our power of understanding.
This is a great discussion-starter – thanks.👍
#s 8 and 22 are objections which are answered later.
#12 gave me a smile.
 
Number 4 is the stickler…
  1. It is unreasonable not to search for an explanation.
If this is so…then how come Jesus maintained that we must become as children to enter the Kingdom…? ( this is the becoming directive

I propose that children naturally know there is a governing reality allowing meaning , purpose and so on in existence… and do not need to reload hope…they are full of natural hope. Lack of question, lack of search is the reasonable and expresses the whole essence of being not without soul… I think manifistation and experience are part of exploring…or living-becoming within the idea…but explanation is detached I think as a foundation in the reasoning end of it…contradictory as a foundation
I can agree with that to an extent. However, it becomes contradictory when the person who states that we should not search for explanations since we should be like children, also at the same time, joins a philosophy discussion and wants some explanations about the origin and development of nature and God’s role in the process. 😉

True, we must be as children – but even children ask questions and need to learn the truth about things. We should not inquire as if we are entitled to know the mysteries of God. But we also shouldn’t pretend that God has not taught us many things about Himself and His providence in nature.
 
Another interesting point to note is that there is a scientific consensus that agrees that life appears too early in geological history to have begun naturally on Earth, leading many prominent naturalists, Fred Hoyle and Richard Dawkins among them, to entertain the idea that life might have been “seeded” here by aliens. The problem is that the math shows that not only could life not have developed here naturally, but most certainly that it could not have evolved anywhere else in the universe at that time either, especially to the extent that it would be able to travel to other planets and seed it there!
That is a strange contradiction. Richard Dawkins proposes aliens as a factor in the origin of life (where there is zero evidence that this occurred). The same man ridicules belief in God.
 
That is a strange contradiction. Richard Dawkins proposes aliens as a factor in the origin of life (where there is zero evidence that this occurred). The same man ridicules belief in God.
Thinking back, I recall one of his many self-incriminating utterances, where he stated in regards to highly intelligent people believing in God something to the effect of, “It’s entirely possible for a man to be very rational and intelligent in some areas while being completely irrational in others.” However, he’s pointing that blade in the wrong direction!
 
That is a strange contradiction. Richard Dawkins proposes aliens as a factor in the origin of life (where there is zero evidence that this occurred). The same man ridicules belief in God.
Dawkins offers panspermia as a hypothesis that is at least plausible as a scientific rendering of the intelligent design intuition. He does not support or promote the idea, for just the reason you cite – there’s not a shred of evidence for such a visitation or seeding from aliens or other intelligence outside this planet.

But, that hypothesis AT LEAST can be posited in natural terms, as a natural phenomenon. As perfectly weak as that is, then, it’s a good example of what Intelligent Design thinking, where “God” is the designer, cannot even rise to. Dawkins allows that an intelligent design reference is possible in scientific terms – panspermia. It’s not a good case with evidence, but it at least is a natural explanation, amenable to examination and discovery by evidence (even if no such evidence exists currently). “God did it” is impotent in this regard.

The accusation is that Dawkins (et al) rule out intelligent design categorically, and dismiss design scenarios for biological life a priori. Dawkins points to the weak, but possible panspermia hypothesis to show that this accusation is false. He does and can provide scenarios where “intelligent design” would obtain in an evidence-based, scientific way.

It’s just the inchoate flavors of the design intuition that posit a supernatural designer that Dawkins understands to be fatally problematic from a scientific standpoint.

None of that commits Dawkins to sympathy for panspermia. It’s just a matter of granting what is possible as a scientific explanation, and what is not. Dawkins no more thinks DNA was designed by aliens than he thinks God did it. But he’s obligated, as we all are, to acknowledge that even if that scenario is completely bereft of supporting evidence, that scenario would be completely legit as a scientific answer if there WERE supporting evidence, which there logically could be. There’s no way in principle, by contrast to get to this same potential with the intuition that a “supernatural Yahweh did it”.

-TS
 
It’s good to hear that you don’t accept the materialist view on origins. At the same time, it’s good to have solid reasons for your acceptance of design.

That’s a criticism of the kind we see from atheists quite often. It’s meant to ridicule – “You think God waved His hand and then worked a magic trick to create things?”
But obviously, you don’t think like that about God.
It’s like asking: “Does God live in the sky and have a long beard?”

As I said before, the challenge comes back to you. As you mentioned, you’re a professing, believing Catholic. You reject the materialist-reductionist idea that there is no design and only blind, unintelligent matter through chance is the explanation for all life on earth. So, you have to support your ideas with some evidence.

Many Catholics struggle with this. I attended Catholic schools for 14 years and covered a range of studies in science and philosophy. I can say that I was never introduced to the problems with modern scientific claims. It was assumed that “if science said it, it was right”.

This is going beyond the design argument. You’re asking about how God did things – and using the standard language and bias of atheistic science to approach it. If you want to pursue the question of what God did and how He did it – those are theological and mystical understandings. Science can show some things – but science is very limited. To understand how God created, you have to know about God - His power and capabilities. We use revelation to know that – and we use the great interpreters of revelation – the fathers, saints, doctors of the Church. We can learn some things about God through philosophy also.

First of all, it’s not explainable. I think you see that. Secondly, we cannot reject the design proposal on the basis that “someday science may find a different answer”. That would be incorrect since we’re looking for “the best explanation we have”. Today, the best explanation is design – as we have shown. Science does not have a plausible explanation for the many things we’ve discussed.

You’re reflecting on what you observe, and that’s fine. A caterpillar becomes a cocoon and through metamorphisis, a butterfly emerges. But that’s not the question we’re looking at – instead, we’re looking at the origin for that kind of process. To merely “expect” that things will happen is not an explanation for why they happen that way.

We have to establish the first point before moving to others. Thus far, you seem to struggle with the idea that the materialist story of origins is not true. You have already said you don’t accept it, but now you keep asking about “God waving his hand”. So, it’s you who don’t have an answer. At each Mass you profess that God is the creator of all things visible and invisible. What does that mean? Why would you ridicule your own beliefs claiming that “God doesn’t wave His hand”?
This is the doctrine of Creation – which most Catholics have not been taught about, or have been incorrectly taught as unnecessary. What did God create? How did He create it? Those are questions you could pursue.
But you won’t make any progress if you continue to revert to the materialist story about how everything emerged through blind, unintelligent randomness from the big-bang to the first molecules to all of life on earth. You have to establish - to yourself - that you don’t accept that, and therefore there is a different answer. Science won’t like that, but you have to make a stand - by faith.
If science could explain all origins and all the development of the universe, then the God proposal wouldn’t have much value or meaning.
That’s the biggest problem I see with people of faith today. They profess belief God, but they really don’t think God can or will actually do anything at all. Some will even deny miracles because they’re afraid that means God “interferes” – and many are intimidated by the ridicule that materialist science offers believers.
I have solid idea’s for design which are much better then this stuff. They include some of the items I was mentioning earlier…

This idea paints a picture…tries to sell it and then says hey your not supposed to look at the picture…not so?

As it is…my analogy with the pear tree stands…as it is useful

Nothing else in this thread is useful. Until something appears which is useful as in coherent with non hazy arrivals out of specific science alleging in tone to be otherwise with countless affirmations… pear tree stands…plain and simple

(some of these fear tatic’s using presumptive unsupportable insinuations of my belief & faith are funny ( sorry not meaning to be anything but don’t know a better way to put it…Its like are you guys joking or something with the between the line stuff…I report to my Director…thats it.
 
  1. Things exist.
  2. There is no obvious explanation for their existence.
  3. They need not exist.
  4. It is unreasonable not to search for an explanation.
  5. But what is an “explanation”?
  6. An explanation increases our understanding.
  7. What do we understand to begin with?
  8. Nothing!
  9. But if we understand nothing we cannot understand anything!
  10. If we cannot understand anything we are wasting our time and energy!
  11. To believe we understand nothing is self-contradictory.
  12. If we cannot understand anything we cannot understand that we understand nothing!
  13. Therefore we understand something!
  14. How do we understand something?
  15. By using our power of understanding!
  16. How can we be sure our power of understanding is reliable?
  17. We have proved our power of understanding is indispensable.
  18. The success of science is further evidence that our power of understanding is reliable.
  19. What else can we prove?
  20. That we exist.
  21. How do we exist?
  22. We don’t understand how we exist!
  23. Then how can we be sure we exist?
  24. Because our power of understanding cannot exist by itself.
  25. How can we be sure our power of understanding cannot exist by itself?
  26. Because we have no experience of anything that exists by itself.
  27. We also know we are responsible for the success of science.
  28. What are we?
  29. We don’t know!
  30. Don’t we know anything about what we are?
  1. There is no evidence the brain knows it exists.
  2. We know we exist.
  3. The brain cannot control itself because its activity is determined by physical events.
  4. We can control ourselves and our environment.
  5. The brain has no insight into the past, present or future.
  6. We are capable of hindsight, insight and foresight.
  7. Our body is subject to the laws of nature but we transcend the laws of nature.
  8. All our knowledge is based on our thoughts, intuitions, feelings, decisions and sensations.
  9. Our mind is our primary datum and sole certainty.
  10. Physical reality is not the sole reality.
 
This is a great discussion-starter – thanks.
#s 8 and 22 are objections which are answered later.
#12 gave me a smile.
I always enjoy pointing out how materialism is self-contradictory and self-destructive. It amounts to a metaphysical conjuring trick:

Hey presto! Out of the puny little particles there eventually appeared persons in all their splendour…:cool:
 
It is implied by your question:
“appear” suggests that you may not be thinking!
You appear to be easily suggestible, which explains much. And you misunderstand “appear” because you dismiss my statements without considering them in context, a context which you have summarily dismissed also without consideration due to what appears to be you obsessive adhesion to a world view limited to your own brand of anthropomorphism.

So to clarify for others, since it seems you won’t lift a mental pinky out of fear, L say “appear” because the thoughts “you” think are not your own. You do not think in the best sense of that word unless you are an exceptional individual, as has been outlined for you earlier. Most mental activity, if you ask a psychologist or psychiatrist, is do-loops and linearities resulting from habits and inculcations of dubious use. in other words, as a dera friend put it on realizing his mind: "We only think we think! All his indicators of intelligence, especially his creativity, went up after that bit. He now holds a high position in one of our State departments.
It is implied by your statement:
“lesser” and “greater” suggest that thought is separable from a person whereas I stated explicitly:
Boy, you need to spell out how you got to that one. How stating that a person’s thoughts (lesser) can contain the Allness of Divinity (the Greater) suggests that a person can be separated from their thoughts when I said that person is their thoughts, baffles me.
I also went on to say :
OK. of course you said that, but then you went to nothing that is fundamental. You just went mental. We are not mental primarily, which you would see, if you only look. Person is mental. The “I” that has a “me” is not. that “I” is what is fundamental, not the thoughts about it, regardless of your thought-full list of tautologies following.
 
That is a strange contradiction. Richard Dawkins proposes aliens as a factor in the origin of life (where there is zero evidence that this occurred). The same man ridicules belief in God.
If you’re talking about his interview in Expelled, you should watch the raw footage. He was pestered with the question for nearly 10 minutes and refused to speculate until he finally got fed up and gave a wild answer. He doesn’t actually believe that aliens had anything to do with the origin of life on this planet.
 
Dawkins offers panspermia as a hypothesis that is at least plausible as a scientific rendering of the intelligent design intuition. He does not support or promote the idea, for just the reason you cite – there’s not a shred of evidence for such a visitation or seeding from aliens or other intelligence outside this planet.
Thanks for an interesting comment.
I did a little research on Dawkins’ statements about panspermia, and as I said, he proposes it as an explanation for the origin of life – and as you point out, this explanation is not supported with any evidence.
But, that hypothesis AT LEAST can be posited in natural terms, as a natural phenomenon. As perfectly weak as that is, then, it’s a good example of what Intelligent Design thinking, where “God” is the designer, cannot even rise to.
You’re offering a philosophical and theological critique by asserting first, that a scientific approach is possible with unspecified, unknown, unobserved alien life forms. And second, that a scientific approach which has no evidence is superior to the evidence we already have from philosophical sources. You also specify “God” (which the design argument does not do) so you bring your own theological assumptions into the argument.

The first contradiction from Mr. Dawkins is that he supporting Intelligent Design by referring to, as yet, unknown alien life as the designer. This leads to an infinite regress in his explanation. Aliens seeded aliens who seeded aliens, etc to infinity. So, it’s not an explanation. It also says nothing about the origin of life itself, since he starts with alien life. He’s willing to make claims about evolution on other planets without having any data to work from. This is just storytelling – pure science fiction.

So there’s a proposed fantasy world of aliens seeding life on earth, but an unwillingness to deal with the philosophical support for design – as well as the theological evidence for the existence of God as Creator.
It’s not a good case with evidence, but it at least is a natural explanation, amenable to examination and discovery by evidence (even if no such evidence exists currently). “God did it” is impotent in this regard.
Again, you’re importing a theological opinion into the design argument when you mention “God”.

But more importantly, Dawkins’ reveals a prior commitment to only naturalistic explanations. He doesn’t give a reason for that. He accepts that life on Earth could have been started by an intelligent designer, but not that the universe could have been started by one. He sees the lack of evidence in support of abiogenesis, so he’s open to panspermia. That’s an “alien of the gaps” argument. But the very same design-detection that leads to a panspermia conclusion could also lead to the conclusion of a supernatural designer. In fact, the idea of a supernatural designer is far simpler and more reasonable. A beginning is required for any observed series of events.
The accusation is that Dawkins (et al) rule out intelligent design categorically, and dismiss design scenarios for biological life a priori. Dawkins points to the weak, but possible panspermia hypothesis to show that this accusation is false. He does and can provide scenarios where “intelligent design” would obtain in an evidence-based, scientific way.
This is quite a concession especially considering the Kitzmiller court case which ruled that Intelligent Design is not a scientific proposal.
Dawkins no more thinks DNA was designed by aliens than he thinks God did it. But he’s obligated, as we all are, to acknowledge that even if that scenario is completely bereft of supporting evidence, that scenario would be completely legit as a scientific answer if there WERE supporting evidence, which there logically could be.
This is true of any imagination we might have. Giant, invisible unicorns might be flying around, and that’s a “completely legit” scientific proposal if there were supporting evidence.

Let’s take it farther … Dawkins’ aliens could have evolved immense powers. They could be ruled by a single alien that has reached a peak of power and intelligence – far beyond human capabilities. This alien could have directed the seeding of planet earth. (I could write fantasy stories like that all day. :)).

So what we’d have is a super-human, ultra powerful and intelligent alien that consciously seeded life on earth. In other words, a god figure. But this god is just asserted, through blind faith. It’s (his?) existence is not explained philosophically.

Again, this, however (apparently), is preferable to classical philosophical support for the existence of a necessary, first being as source of being and creator of the universe.
There’s no way in principle, by contrast to get to this same potential with the intuition that a “supernatural Yahweh did it”.
Again, you’re importing some specificity that the design argument doesn’t propose by naming the designer Yahweh. That’s an indication of a bias in your approach - and a strawman. The design argument does not bring us directly to Yahweh or to the Blessed Trinity.

The fact that Mr. Dawkins publicly supports the plausibility of an alien designer seeding life on earth is simply more support for the design argument.

If there are intelligent designers in space - then we would know that by observing and identifying design.
 
You appear to be easily suggestible, which explains much. And you misunderstand “appear” because you dismiss my statements without considering them in context, a context which you have summarily dismissed also without consideration due to what appears to be you obsessive adhesion to a world view limited to your own brand of anthropomorphism.

So to clarify for others, since it seems you won’t lift a mental pinky out of fear, L say “appear” because the thoughts “you” think are not your own. You do not think in the best sense of that word unless you are an exceptional individual, as has been outlined for you earlier. Most mental activity, if you ask a psychologist or psychiatrist, is do-loops and linearities resulting from habits and inculcations of dubious use. in other words, as a dera friend put it on realizing his mind: "We only think we think! All his indicators of intelligence, especially his creativity, went up after that bit. He now holds a high position in one of our State departments.
Boy, you need to spell out how you got to that one. How stating that a person’s thoughts (lesser) can contain the Allness of Divinity (the Greater) suggests that a person can be separated from their thoughts when I said that person is their thoughts, baffles me.OK. of course you said that, but then you went to nothing that is fundamental. You just went mental. We are not mental primarily, which you would see, if you only look. Person is mental. The “I” that has a “me” is not. that “I” is what is fundamental, not the thoughts about it, regardless of your thought-full list of tautologies following.
It is pointless attempting to have a rational discussion with a person whose posts are replete with personal remarks, argumenta ad hominem and failures to refute statements - as several others have already discovered… 🤷
 
So here is another dimension for considering in the expert pursuit of “overwheliming” evidence. This is posted in What evidence is there for a personal God?
40.png
levinas12:
It’s not so much that we all

have different criteria. The subject matter itself determines the type of evidence.

Consider the following:

a mathematical equation in quantum mechanics
a mathematical proof in geometry
the meaning of a poem

Each of these involve a different type of evidence.

Religious experience, or experience of the holy, is also subject to a type of evidence.

(snip)Yes, they do require different approaches, and the point is that while maths have proofs that bear exact commonality in what is called the “objective” field, metaphysical truths are in the subjective and bear interpretation, an interpretation for which we yet have no common language, and may never. Despite that, there can be an alignment of factors in subjectivity, though no “proof” in an objective sense. But we have seen on another thread the futility of attempting a proof from the “objective” to the subjective which supports it.

A good example might be the similarity of NDEs (Near Death Experiences.) Same for OBEs. I can’t prove to you I had one, and neither can anyone else prove theirs. But when people who have had them talk about them, they all and independently include from one to seven identical factors.

Now what those factors mean to anyone is where interpretation comes in. In the NDE instance, the oft reported encounter with a Being of Light is nearly always in terms of the individual’s birth religion. Christians see and Angel or Jesus. Muslims see Mohamed. Buddhists see Buddha, etc, etc. All of the ones who see relatives see their own relatives, and orphans see people of significance in their lives. So what is suggested here is that there is a deeper reality operating than the mental structure used to explain it, however sincere and convincing any particular one is to an individual. and so what happens is that on “returning,” the person is more convinced than ever of their paradigm, while neglecting to note and discover by comparison that there may be something more to it than the mentality laid over the happening.

And I propose that exactly the same thing happens with religion. And here we have to distinguish between inculcated religion, even if scholarly study is at work, and what a person might experience as a mystical experience, and especially one resulting from contemplation. and there is an excellent reason for that. The reason for distinguishing between a mystic and a contemplative is that the mystic is yet before the “last barrier” and is dealing still with the resolution of interior phenomena interpret-able within the confines of their paradigm, similar to who sees whom in an NDE. The successful contemplative sees clearly past any paradigm and yet may uniquely exegesis their experience in terms of their faith up to that point. I am sure that St. Aquinas is one such. In contemporary terms, both English speaking, and exemplifying one each the retention and rejection of original faith paradigms, we have for comparison Bernadette Roberts and Franklin Merrell-Wolff. Both exquisitely journal and parse their transformation in Understanding. And rather than continue on my own dissertation on these points, I highly recommend reading these tow and discovering for one’s self what a meticulous rendering these two have each accomplished. A useful and simple synthesis might be had by reading Ken Wilber’s *A Brief History of Everything. *
(That is a book written in simple Q&A form, understandable to list makers, while the previous two might require use of a dictionary.)
 
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