Overwhelming evidence for Design?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonyrey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The word “different” applies; “superior” does not.
If you believe so.
I became seriously disenchanted with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, and abandoned plans to obtain a PhD in physics. Upon the termination of my formal education I worked in astronomy, where I found a few others who had shared the same insights about QM and had escaped physics, in favor of a field where they could apply their physics knowledge.
You came into physics just slightly before the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation (though a lot of people on both sides of the argument insist that interpretation is not the correct word) started being looked at seriously for a second (third?) time. It is a deterministic theory with ontological implications that the Copenhagen interpretation cannot possess. If you are interested, Dr Mike Towler has a nice set of lectures (available here) on the subject–be warned though, you might have to crack open Liboff or Schiff or whoever wrote your QM text (assuming you still have it) to get the full understanding of the material.
No doubt my detailed knowledge of physics is less than yours. Obtaining that knowledge would only have been useful if I’d wanted a permanent job in academia. What I may have, however, is something that to the best of my knowledge is a unique perspective on the integration of creation theory and fundamental physics.
It is certainly unique. I just do not believe it is right.
 
I’d not have figured the 20-constant selection process to be a popularity contest, like “Dancing with the Stars.”
I do not view it as a popularity contest, but I can understand the remark.
Of course you are correct that if there are three interdependent values, one of which can be derived from the other two, we get to choose the two that we regard as most important.
I think, and believe that many other scientists would accept this position, that c is more important than μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub]. Prior to Lorentz and Einstein’s work, every physicist accepted the possibility of infinite velocity; these two men changed that viewpoint.
For example, one could write Al’s famous equation as,

c = (E/m)[sup]1/2[/sup] instead of E=mc[sup]2[/sup].

because the expressions are mathematically identical. However, doing so would obscure the core physics concept involved.
I agree.
The same is true for “c,” μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub]. We can choose any two. But in the interest of understanding physics, rather than simply manipulating mathematical symbols, why not use the two that further our understanding?
I think the ultimate speed barrier is more fundamental than the other two, as stated above.
μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub] are common to all materials, but “c” (light speed) is not. That explains why I could not see a darned thing through the “guaranteed unbreakable” eyeglasses I bought awhile back. The lenses were made of aluminum, and the permittivity of aluminum does not permit the transfer of light.
Not technically true; c, μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub] are all constants in free space. However, when applied to a particular material, they are no longer c, μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub] but v[sub]s[/sub], μ and ε (v[sub]s[/sub] is the speed of light in the material, given by v[sub]s[/sub]=c/n where n is the index of refraction of the material).
Therefore, because μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub] are common to all materials, even those that cannot transmit light, should they not be regarded as more fundamental?
As stated above, none of the three are common to all materials, only to free space. Within a medium, they become the medium-dependent values of v[sub]s[/sub], μ and ε.
Let me stress, O Ph.D physicist, that I am not seeking a semantic quibble here. I’m just looking for the physics and the understanding of how our universe works.

If I get to learn things from you along the way, that’s a bonus. For example, would you kindly explain how to get letters of the Greek alphabet into text? Thanks! 🙂
I believe that c is more fundamental that μ[sub]0[/sub] and ε[sub]0[/sub] because even in a material where the speed of light has been reduced to v[sub]s[/sub], particles can still travel at c–this process emits blue radiation and is known as Cherenkov radiation.

I copied the whole Greek alphabet from Wikipedia’s page on the Greek alphabet into a text file (Notepad file, not MS Word) and just copy and paste from there when necessary.
 
I never said there is no evidence of insight in the universe. However, i don’t believe the universe expresses the hands-on type of craftsmanship you would see in the construction of a wooden boat for example, that couldn’t arise according to secondary causes (the interaction of various elements). Neither do i feel it necessary to identify that kind of craftsmanship in-order to identify qualities that would require insight in order to exist.
A wooden boat is a hopelessly inadequate analogy for a vast system in which there has been development from the Big Bang to the awe-inspiring universe with immensely complex living organisms and persons made in God’s image. Do you believe all this is the result of blind secondary causes?
For example, the activities of DNA cannot give rise to the end-directed qualities we find in organisms without the existence of distinct goal directed information. We are talking about irreducibly complex commands telling atoms to arrange themselves into a biological construct. Where does this information and meaning come from? When we create symbols such as we find in books, the meaning of the story is always distinct from the the representative symbols; and thus when we ask where the meaning comes from we have no choice but to attribute that meaning to the creative activity of a mind. DNA represents the same issue. Physics alone cannot explain the existence of any meaning that any particular DNA code sequence represents, because meaning itself is beyond the capacities of the scientific method to describe physically since we are ultimately dealing with abstract information, as opposed to analogous constructs. But that doesn’t mean that the construction of DNA itself need be the work of an artist since it is conceivable that this object could arise naturally. Its the effect of the DNA that requires an explanation that physics cannot provide.
In *The Signature of the Cell *Stephen Meyer has explained why undirected physical causes alone are an insufficient explanation of a immensely complex, hierarchical information system. To reject any form of divine intervention or control of events amounts to choosing natural selection as the sole explanation of human existence rather than Providence. God is reduced to a remote Observer who does absolutely nothing to ensure that suffering on this planet is minimised. Miracles are thought to play no part in the scheme of things because for some inexplicable reason the infinitely loving Father leaves the universe entirely to its own devices as if the laws of nature are perfectly capable of fulfilling His Will down to the very last detail.
 
Why read a pseudo-science book when the author has explicitly stated there lies false information within its pages? You have stated that your book links the soul to dark energy, a hypothesis that is impossible to prove, and that there are only two forces, not the four that are known throughout the world.
Actually, my book is poorly categorized as either “science” or “pseudo-science.” There is no common category into which it fits. It is simply the basic notion of a Theory of Everything which offers a broader bandwidth than the limited T.O.E.s proposed by physicists that only address physics and cosmology. My unique T.O.E. includes an explanation for human consciousness. It also describes the properties of the primary Creator in terms of basic physics principles.

Moreover, unlike the current horrid explanations for consciousness (e.g: Penrose’s boat anchor, Consciousness and the Universe) mine is simple, fundamental, and verifiable.

For example, note that cosmology hypothesizes that the universe began with the dissolution of a “physical” singularity, and modern monotheism hypothesizes that it began with acts of will by a spirit-being. Neither of these hypothetical entities can be empirically verified. Their existence is supported only by belief.

However, my theories propose that the universe began from the interactions between stuff that still exists, and that can therefore be verified to exist.

Put even more simply, unlike cosmology and religion, my theories can be proven wrong. (Yes, I know that you will focus upon the “wrong” in that statement. Remember, please, that a theory which cannot be proven wrong is not a scientific theory.)

You claim that my linking of soul to dark energy cannot be proven, yet have not the slightest idea of either my “soul” concept or my explanation of dark energy.

Your concept of “soul” cannot be proven, and if you are a typical university-educated conventional physicist who gets his opinions from textbooks, you do not know squat about the nature of dark energy. You are arguing from your limited beliefs, not from my concepts.

That is hardly an open minded approach, but typical of dogmatists who intend to stay that way. Your choice, of course, but please be fair enough to acknowledge that you are trying my case without showing up in the courtroom. That’s as unconscionable as claiming that you know what’s going on in the world because you watch the NBC nightly news.

Yet here you are, a Christian-Physicist with all the bells, whistles, and paperwork (any published papers, BTW?) arguing against verifiable ideas that you’ve not even read. I’ve encountered Jehovah’s Witnesses with more open minds.

I think that you are better, and smarter than that, but I am willing to be proven wrong, if you insist.

I know about the four forces, of course, and also know that they are poorly understood, and that they are mathematical constructs which are necessary to make the “Standard Model” come out more or less reasonably. I also know that there are problems with this model. Personally, in my minority opinion, the S.M. offers no more physics insights than a toy car made from Lego blocks offers about the thermodynamic principles of internal combustion engines. Both are simply models— both simply approximations.

My book offers excellent arguments for the Two-Force concept, which is essential to my integration of physics and consciousness. Of course you will never actually know anything about the two forces I propose, or about any of my other ideas, because you are too dogmatic to question your own beliefs by reading alternative ideas.

That is kind of too bad. At the moment, I understand your beliefs (both physics and religion), plus a dozen alternative systems. And I also understand my own alternative system. But you are limited by your refusal to examine ideas in which you do not already believe. Exchanging ideas with you seems irresponsible, like trying to teach a student who refuses to read the textbook.
Curiously, your behavior is exactly the kind of behavior from BS/BA graduates that I have mentioned earlier. And your first sentence here equally applies to you: your comments are written by an ignorant man, and who intends on being, but chooses to remain completely ignorant about the subject that he has not studied but writes a lot about.
I’ve met some of those guys. My favorite nit was a NASA technician who claimed that he’d have developed Relativity Theory had Big Al not beaten him to the punch. And in an astronomy laboratory where I worked, my boss sent all the crackpots who wandered through the door to me, because I could beat them so mercilessly at their own game that they never returned again.

However, I always did these people the courtesy of hearing them out and coming to an understanding of their theories before the debunking process. That is because I recognized them as potentially kindred spirits who may have held valid insights not included in my mind’s database. At that time, my own theories were still in development and contained several serious flaws. Had I been unable to resolve them with deeper study and thought, they’d never have been worth publishing.

Even now, there are only a handful of people who think that publishing my book was a good idea. So far, they are the small set of those who have actually read the book. They are obviously biased.

Knowledge has a way of doing that to people who take the trouble to obtain it.
 
In *The Signature of the Cell *Stephen Meyer has explained why undirected physical causes alone are an insufficient explanation of a immensely complex, hierarchical information system. To reject any form of divine intervention or control of events amounts to choosing natural selection as the sole explanation of human existence rather than Providence. God is reduced to a remote Observer who does absolutely nothing to ensure that suffering on this planet is minimised. Miracles are thought to play no part in the scheme of things because for some inexplicable reason the infinitely loving Father leaves the universe entirely to its own devices as if the laws of nature are perfectly capable of fulfilling His Will down to the very last detail.
The rejection of divine intervention also implies that prayer for our physical needs is a complete waste of time because it has no effect whatsoever on events in a universe controlled entirely by the laws of nature…
 
The rejection of divine intervention also implies that prayer for our physical needs is a complete waste of time because it has no effect whatsoever on events in a universe controlled entirely by the laws of nature…
Given that the usual excuse offered for unanswered prayer is something along the lines of, “God knew better,” how can anyone actually know whether or not prayer is at all efficacious when the operation of natural forces and, indeed, pure chance, are quite adequate to explain the outcomes? It’s as if one might as well pray as not, and nothing would change.

I’m sure you’re aware of such experiments as have actually been documented in this regard, which concluded that prayer has no demonstrable effect (apart from a slight negative influence, related to the psychological conditions of those who knew they were being prayed for) upon external circumstances; even its effects upon the internal circumstances of the person who prays are not appreciably different to the effects of non-theistic meditation.
 
The rejection of divine intervention also implies that prayer for our physical needs is a complete waste of time because it has no effect whatsoever on events in a universe controlled entirely
The “excuse” may well be an excellent reason given the immense complexity of events. It would be extremely presumptuous to claim to know, for example, when a person’s death is a curse rather than a blessing. There are far greater evils than leaving this world prematurely.
I’m sure you’re aware of such experiments as have actually been documented in this regard, which concluded that prayer has no demonstrable effect (apart from a slight negative influence, related to the psychological conditions of those who knew they were being prayed for) upon external circumstances; even its effects upon the internal circumstances of the person who prays are not appreciably different to the effects of non-theistic meditation.
To expect all - or even most - prayers to be answered is equivalent to regarding God as a slot machine! When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign He answered:

“Only a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

They had already heard of people being cured, attributed it to sorcery and insisted on having a miracle worked specifically for their benefit. They not only lacked faith but had evil intentions and were not acting “in good faith”…
 
Given that the usual excuse offered for unanswered prayer is something along the lines of, “God knew better,” how can anyone actually know whether or not prayer is at all efficacious when the operation of natural forces and, indeed, pure chance, are quite adequate to explain the outcomes? It’s as if one might as well pray as not, and nothing would change.

I’m sure you’re aware of such experiments as have actually been documented in this regard, which concluded that prayer has no demonstrable effect (apart from a slight negative influence, related to the psychological conditions of those who knew they were being prayed for) upon external circumstances; even its effects upon the internal circumstances of the person who prays are not appreciably different to the effects of non-theistic meditation.
These experiments do prove the non-existence of a “genie” god who does every bidding of the human beings who make requests of him. Given that the most beneficial effects of any situation as deliberated by an omniscient omnibenevolent God who has within His moral purview the entire past, present and future of the entire universe, may differ radically from the requests of limited, generally immediately concerned requests of human beings, there is no reason to believe that the probability of human requests being fulfilled has any correlation to the best possible outcome that would count towards the probability of God’s existence. The experiment was just wrongly conceived.

In addition, these experiments only count very specific outcomes as fulfilling the requests when in fact wider longer range positive outcomes could have been the result of prayers but would not have been counted as positive outcomes.
 
These experiments do prove the non-existence of a “genie” god who does every bidding of the human beings who make requests of him. Given that the most beneficial effects of any situation as deliberated by an omniscient omnibenevolent God who has within His moral purview the entire past, present and future of the entire universe, may differ radically from the requests of limited, generally immediately concerned requests of human beings, there is no reason to believe that the probability of human requests being fulfilled has any correlation to the best possible outcome that would count towards the probability of God’s existence. The experiment was just wrongly conceived.

In addition, these experiments only count very specific outcomes as fulfilling the requests when in fact wider longer range positive outcomes could have been the result of prayers but would not have been counted as positive outcomes.
Then that would seem to square with the assertion that one might as well pray as not - if the scope of mere human interest is so narrow, and the omniscient, supposedly omnibenevolent deity has the longest of long-range views of the situation, then how could anyone suppose that prayer would at all affect the course of the divine plan? The only reason for doing it, the only legitimate reason as far as I’m concerned, is that it might make the praying individual feel better, feel more reconciled to a particular situation; but then, as I said, there is no appreciable difference between religious prayer and secular meditation.
 
Then that would seem to square with the assertion that one might as well pray as not - if the scope of mere human interest is so narrow, and the omniscient, supposedly omnibenevolent deity has the longest of long-range views of the situation, then how could anyone suppose that prayer would at all affect the course of the divine plan? The only reason for doing it, the only legitimate reason as far as I’m concerned, is that it might make the praying individual feel better, feel more reconciled to a particular situation; but then, as I said, there is no appreciable difference between religious prayer and secular meditation.
The point of prayer is not to change God, but to draw us closer to God’s will by making us more aware of His presence in our lives. If we are open to God in this way, the things that we ask for will become aligned over time with what is the best for us. At some point on the road of prayer our petitions will be more frequently fulfilled because they will come into increasing correspondence with His perfect will.

Secular meditation cannot have as its end a harmonizing of our wills with the perfect omnibenevolent and omniscient Ground of the universe. Secular meditation could have a calming influence or quelling of the “monkey brain,” but it cannot have as its end communion in love with the Eternal “Thou” of God.
 
Moreover, unlike the current horrid explanations for consciousness (e.g: Penrose’s boat anchor, Consciousness and the Universe) mine is simple, fundamental, and verifiable.

For example, note that cosmology hypothesizes that the universe began with the dissolution of a “physical” singularity, and modern monotheism hypothesizes that it began with acts of will by a spirit-being. Neither of these hypothetical entities can be empirically verified. Their existence is supported only by belief.

However, my theories propose that the universe began from the interactions between stuff that still exists, and that can therefore be verified to exist.
Help me out. I must have missed your explanation of how your theory is verified. A page number or a chapter number would do. I also missed the nature of the brain-beon connection. Page or chapter number?
Put even more simply, unlike cosmology and religion, my theories can be proven wrong. (Yes, I know that you will focus upon the “wrong” in that statement. Remember, please, that a theory which cannot be proven wrong is not a scientific theory.)
You claim that my linking of soul to dark energy cannot be proven, yet have not the slightest idea of either my “soul” concept or my explanation of dark energy.
Your concept of “soul” cannot be proven, and if you are a typical university-educated conventional physicist who gets his opinions from textbooks, you do not know squat about the nature of dark energy. You are arguing from your limited beliefs, not from my concepts.
That is hardly an open minded approach, but typical of dogmatists who intend to stay that way. Your choice, of course, but please be fair enough to acknowledge that you are trying my case without showing up in the courtroom. That’s as unconscionable as claiming that you know what’s going on in the world because you watch the NBC nightly news.
Yet here you are, a Christian-Physicist with all the bells, whistles, and paperwork (any published papers, BTW?) arguing against verifiable ideas that you’ve not even read. I’ve encountered Jehovah’s Witnesses with more open minds.
I think that you are better, and smarter than that, but I am willing to be proven wrong, if you insist.
I know about the four forces, of course, and also know that they are poorly understood, and that they are mathematical constructs which are necessary to make the “Standard Model” come out more or less reasonably. I also know that there are problems with this model. Personally, in my minority opinion, the S.M. offers no more physics insights than a toy car made from Lego blocks offers about the thermodynamic principles of internal combustion engines. Both are simply models— both simply approximations.
My book offers excellent arguments for the Two-Force concept, which is essential to my integration of physics and consciousness. Of course you will never actually know anything about the two forces I propose, or about any of my other ideas, because you are too dogmatic to question your own beliefs by reading alternative ideas.
That is kind of too bad. At the moment, I understand your beliefs (both physics and religion), plus a dozen alternative systems. And I also understand my own alternative system. But you are limited by your refusal to examine ideas in which you do not already believe. Exchanging ideas with you seems irresponsible, like trying to teach a student who refuses to read the textbook.
I’ve met some of those guys. My favorite nit was a NASA technician who claimed that he’d have developed Relativity Theory had Big Al not beaten him to the punch. And in an astronomy laboratory where I worked, my boss sent all the crackpots who wandered through the door to me, because I could beat them so mercilessly at their own game that they never returned again.
However, I always did these people the courtesy of hearing them out and coming to an understanding of their theories before the debunking process. That is because I recognized them as potentially kindred spirits who may have held valid insights not included in my mind’s database. At that time, my own theories were still in development and contained several serious flaws. Had I been unable to resolve them with deeper study and thought, they’d never have been worth publishing.
Even now, there are only a handful of people who think that publishing my book was a good idea. So far, they are the small set of those who have actually read the book. They are obviously biased.
Knowledge has a way of doing that to people who take the trouble to obtain it.
I don’t believe too many people in this forum are going to run out and buy your book, so why don’t you give them the web site that contains the essentials of the Beon Theory so they can understand what you are alluding to.

Congratulations again on a nice looking book. I predict it will find some success among the Trekies for the core subject and with the dissociated cynics for the deliciously amusing similes, metaphors, diatribes, asides, and the amazing personnel experiences. You are truly a fair and balanced writer, you managed to insult everyone on the planet. I couldn’t put it down, but then again there is that dark side of my personality that I can never completely suppress.

As ever,
Yppop

and the .
 
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but I just googled “Beon Theory” and came up with all sorts of weird things. Google seemed to interpret “Beon” as “be-on” like, “I’d like to be on another planet.” 🤷
 
A wooden boat is a hopelessly inadequate analogy for a vast system in which there has been development from the Big Bang to the awe-inspiring universe with immensely complex living organisms and persons made in God’s image. Do you believe all this is the result of blind secondary causes?
In the context of science, so long as it is a possibility, regardless of how small, i see no reason to deny the idea that “physical events” since the big-bang has evolved according to elemental interactions and reactions.
In *The Signature of the Cell *Stephen Meyer has explained why undirected physical causes alone are an insufficient explanation of a immensely complex, hierarchical information system.
“Complexity” is not for me a sign of design. Rather it is the nature of the information involved, in so far as it goal directed, that suggests design to me; simply because it involves the quality of abstract meaning.
Miracles are thought to play no part in the scheme of things because for some inexplicable reason the infinitely loving Father leaves the universe entirely to its own devices as if the laws of nature are perfectly capable of fulfilling His Will down to the very last detail.
Human beings don’t have to exist in an evolving universe. Miracles make sense only once homo-sapiens exist, since miracles are about the salvation of human beings because their existence posses a particular quality. But until their existence occurs, what reason is there for God to perform miracles?

It makes no sense for God to create this kind of universe if he is going to interfere with its processes in-order to determine or bring about a particular quality or being. Why not just create an entire universe all at once, rather than one that takes billions of years to evolve. Its pointless and arbitrary. Evolution is a principle of Gods creative love since there is no nature other than God that ought to exist, and no being that deserves to exists more than another being.
 
A wooden boat is a hopelessly inadequate analogy for a vast system in which there has been development from the Big Bang to the awe-inspiring universe with immensely complex living organisms and persons made in God’s image. Do you believe all this is the result of blind secondary causes?

In *The Signature of the Cell *Stephen Meyer has explained why undirected physical causes alone are an insufficient explanation of a immensely complex, hierarchical information system. To reject any form of divine intervention or control of events amounts to choosing natural selection as the sole explanation of human existence rather than Providence. God is reduced to a remote Observer who does absolutely nothing to ensure that suffering on this planet is minimised. Miracles are thought to play no part in the scheme of things because for some inexplicable reason the infinitely loving Father leaves the universe entirely to its own devices as if the laws of nature are perfectly capable of fulfilling His Will down to the very last detail.
I’m going to take the rare position (for me) of disagreeing with you somewhat, tonyrey. It should be remembered that the laws of nature ARE God’s Will and are themselves a form of his intervention. Laws don’t write themselves, after all. So, at least as far as the development of the material world is concerned, I don’t see any reason theists should have to reject the idea that the information systems of life could not be embedded in some deeper layer of the laws of physics that we have yet to learn. It should also be remembered that science doesn’t fully understand the laws of nature yet, so there’s no telling what we might find. Believers don’t need to be and absolutely shouldn’t feel threatened by such notions, because the more we learn about the universe, the more we realize just how incredibly well organized it is. The laws of nature are an immensely complex, hierarchical information system themselves!
 
I’m going to take the rare position (for me) of disagreeing with you somewhat, tonyrey. It should be remembered that the laws of nature ARE God’s Will and are themselves a form of his intervention. Laws don’t write themselves, after all. So, at least as far as the development of the material world is concerned, I don’t see any reason theists should have to reject the idea that the information systems of life could not be embedded in some deeper layer of the laws of physics that we have yet to learn. It should also be remembered that science doesn’t fully understand the laws of nature yet, so there’s no telling what we might find. Believers don’t need to be and absolutely shouldn’t feel threatened by such notions, because the more we learn about the universe, the more we realize just how incredibly well organized it is. The laws of nature are an immensely complex, hierarchical information system themselves!
I think this distinction by Edward Feser might add some insight into the discussion:

*When combined with the doctrine of divine simplicity, divine conservation entails a very different conception of God’s relationship to the world than is entailed by theistic personalism. Theistic personalism tends toward a conception of God as an especially penetrating observer of the world, who learns what is happening in it via epistemic powers that are far more advanced than ours. For classical theism, though, since God doesn’t change, neither does he “learn,” not even in an extremely effective way. His knowledge of the world is far more intimate than that. He knows it precisely by knowing Himself as the sustaining cause of the world, in the very act of causing it. He is not like a machinist who is the keenest possible observer of the operations of a machine he has built. He is, again, more like a musician who knows the music he is playing, not by observing it, but precisely in the act of playing it.

The theistic personalist also generally takes God’s miraculous activity to amount to a kind of “intervention” in a natural order that would otherwise operate without him, like that of a machinist who steps in to alter the workings of a machine he had earlier set in motion but which was, before the intervention, carrying on independently of him. For the classical theist, that is simply not the right way to think about miracles, since there is no such thing as the world otherwise carrying on apart from God, given that He is already the sustaining cause of the ordinary course of events itself. If we pursue the musician analogy a bit further, we can say that for the classical theist, the world’s regular operations are like the music a musician plays according to a score he has before his mind, and a miracle is like the musician’s momentary improvisation or departure from that score. It is not an intervention in a course of events that would otherwise have carried on without God, but rather the suspension of the normal ordering of a course of events that would not in any case have carried on without Him.*
edwardfeser.blogspot.ca/2010/09/classical-theism.html

The question is could Intelligent Design, as for example be evidenced in the elaborate DNA coding in the cell be an example of God’s improvisation?

Meyer presents a strong case for why it might be.

Feser thinks not, but I am not convinced why it couldn’t be.
 
I think this distinction by Edward Feser might add some insight into the discussion:

*When combined with the doctrine of divine simplicity, divine conservation entails a very different conception of God’s relationship to the world than is entailed by theistic personalism. Theistic personalism tends toward a conception of God as an especially penetrating observer of the world, who learns what is happening in it via epistemic powers that are far more advanced than ours. For classical theism, though, since God doesn’t change, neither does he “learn,” not even in an extremely effective way. His knowledge of the world is far more intimate than that. He knows it precisely by knowing Himself as the sustaining cause of the world, in the very act of causing it. He is not like a machinist who is the keenest possible observer of the operations of a machine he has built. He is, again, more like a musician who knows the music he is playing, not by observing it, but precisely in the act of playing it.

The theistic personalist also generally takes God’s miraculous activity to amount to a kind of “intervention” in a natural order that would otherwise operate without him, like that of a machinist who steps in to alter the workings of a machine he had earlier set in motion but which was, before the intervention, carrying on independently of him. For the classical theist, that is simply not the right way to think about miracles, since there is no such thing as the world otherwise carrying on apart from God, given that He is already the sustaining cause of the ordinary course of events itself. If we pursue the musician analogy a bit further, we can say that for the classical theist, the world’s regular operations are like the music a musician plays according to a score he has before his mind, and a miracle is like the musician’s momentary improvisation or departure from that score. It is not an intervention in a course of events that would otherwise have carried on without God, but rather the suspension of the normal ordering of a course of events that would not in any case have carried on without Him.*
edwardfeser.blogspot.ca/2010/09/classical-theism.html

The question is could Intelligent Design, as for example be evidenced in the elaborate DNA coding in the cell be an example of God’s improvisation?

Meyer presents a strong case for why it might be.

Feser thinks not, but I am not convinced why it couldn’t be.
I agree with Meyer that it is evidence for intelligent design. But I also think the entire universe is evidence of intelligent design. 🙂

The way I see it is this: even if we did determine that DNA arose from natural processes, we are still left with the inexplicable fact that we live in a universe that possesses such creative natural processes. No matter how many new substrata of existence we find, none of them will ever be self-explanatory and all contribute to a self-evidently elaborate and creative reality.

All the science in the world cannot undermine St. Paul’s words of wisdom: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

Indeed, the more science learns, the more relevant those words become.
 
The rejection of divine intervention also implies that prayer for our physical needs is a complete waste of time because it has no effect whatsoever on events in a universe controlled entirely by the laws of nature…
Must the intervention necessarily be “divine?” Might God have sent some of the entities that the Church calls “angels” to do the grunt work of microbiological engineering?

Yes, I know that such “imaginative” concepts are beyond your limited theological beliefs, so there is no need to reiterate any more of them for my benefit. Just try answering the question for a change, after spending a night or two considering it.
 
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but I just googled “Beon Theory” and came up with all sorts of weird things. Google seemed to interpret “Beon” as “be-on” like, “I’d like to be on another planet.” 🤷
It’s a new theory, and beon is an invented word. Try searching for my handle/name, Greylorn Ell, on Amazon. It is easier to type than my book title, Digital Universe – Analog Soul. I appreciate your curiosity.
 
Help me out. I must have missed your explanation of how your theory is verified. A page number or a chapter number would do. I also missed the nature of the brain-beon connection. Page or chapter number?

I don’t believe too many people in this forum are going to run out and buy your book, so why don’t you give them the web site that contains the essentials of the Beon Theory so they can understand what you are alluding to.

Congratulations again on a nice looking book. I predict it will find some success among the Trekies for the core subject and with the dissociated cynics for the deliciously amusing similes, metaphors, diatribes, asides, and the amazing personnel experiences. You are truly a fair and balanced writer, you managed to insult everyone on the planet. I couldn’t put it down, but then again there is that dark side of my personality that I can never completely suppress.

As ever,
Yppop
YP,

I’ll give you chapter and verse, and anything else that does not cost a helluva lot, or any firstborns or other of my offspring, for a single favor. PLEASE, PLEASE, post your last paragraph on amazon.com as a book review.

The only change I’d suggest is from “personnel” to “personal,” as you meant. (I screw that one up a lot.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top