Pacifism and Catholocism

[Fitz]

In another thread an interesting topic has come up. We were reminded to stay on topic so here is the new topic.

Are Catholics that favor the war going agaist their religion? Why is it that Catholics and Christians that attend church every week are more in favor of our involvement with the Iraq war? I have my opinion and I will put it out there.
To save some typing time I am going to recopy what I posted in the other thread.

Ok, I have given your question a lot of thought over the past 2 years actually. IMHO, it is because those that don’t go to church are liberals that think they can make up their own rules to live by. They are the Sen. Durbin’s, the Senator Kennedy’s. They can be agaist abortion persoanlly but vote in favor or partial birth abortion rights because it is what they say their constituents want. They are Cafeteria Catholics, if you get my meaning. Those that go to church every week are conservative, follow the rules type of people. The war is the right thing to do.

The people of Iraq deserve to be free of the tyrant and we need to be sure we are fighting terrorism. I am not a pacifist, but I am a weekly attendee at church.

Sure I am generalizing, but like I said, It is my humble opinion. It is no more right than Cindy Sheehan’s.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

Fitz:

Are Catholics that favor the war going agaist their religion?

No.

Why is it that Catholics and Christians that attend church every week are more in favor of our involvement with the Iraq war?

What statistics do you have to substantiate this assertion?

IMHO, it is because those that don’t go to church are liberals that think they can make up their own rules to live by.

IMHO, there are conservatives who also avoid church and live by their own rules. Religious slackers can be liberal or conservative, or in-between.

Those that go to church every week are conservative, follow the rules type of people.

Again, your evidence?

 

[gilliam]

It is very possible that Catholics who do not support the US taking the moral responsibility to make sure Iraq is peaceful before they leave are, in fact, going against Catholic teaching on stewardship.

 

[BOBKAT]

IMHO, I think that the war is just and I am a practicing catholic. I think when Pope JPII told the President to find another way he was speaking from his heart he seen first hand the horrors of war, but I would be willing to bet that he was grateful to the US and England along with all the other Allies when they came in to end the tyranny. I believe in my heart that God was pleased that people will give their lives so that others may live. Isn’t that what Jesus did by the crucifix? I agree with Fitz based on my own personal observations.

God Bless
Kathleen

 

[MikeWM]

Why is it that Catholics and Christians that attend church every week are more in favor of our involvement with the Iraq war?

I wouldn’t say that about the people who go to the same Church as me. Almost all the people I’ve spoken to have been quite strongly against it.

Of course, it’s possible that those Catholics who don’t go to Church are even more against it

Mike

 

[buffalo]

Arba Sicula:

No.

What statistics do you have to substantiate this assertion?

/QUOTE]

The last two election cycles produced this evidence. It is real. If you need the sources I will try to locate.

 

[Fitz]

Arba Sicula:

What statistics do you have to substantiate this assertion? ?

I will look for the article. I actually took this premis from another poster but I did not doubt it because I had heard it on the radio many times. I think you are right to want a source. I will go checking…
Arba Sicula:

IMHO, there are conservatives who also avoid church and live by their own rules. Religious slackers can be liberal or conservative, or in-between.

Yeah, you are probably right about slackers in all points on the spectrum. However, I do think they did document during the election that more people that go to church weekly voted for President Bush, Catholics included.

Again, your evidence?

 

[buffalo]

Theory 1 - Democrat Catholics really like the Church’s teachings on social justice, but fail to put these teachings in context.

Comments?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

Fitz:

However, I do think they did document during the election that more people that go to church weekly voted for President Bush, Catholics included.

Yes, that’s true, but the question was not about whehter or not they voted for Bush, but whether church goers are more in favor of the war.

Catholics may well have gone for Bush because of abortion issues, not because of war issues.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

buffalo:

Theory 1 - Democrat Catholics really like the Church’s teachings on social justice, but fail to put these teachings in context.

Comments?

Yes. What evidence do you have that such is true?

 

[buffalo]

Arba Sicula:

Yes. What evidence do you have that such is true?

I don’t - its a theory.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

buffalo:

I don’t - its a theory.

Can you, then, expound on your hypothesis, even without documentation? Give us the skeleton, even if you can’t flesh it out.

 

[buffalo]

Ok - I’ll give it a shot.

In the past the country was very anti-Catholic (still is imho). Catholics in this country were immigrants without any special treatment when they came here. They were ethnic - Polish, German, Irish, Italian etc…
They were taken advantage of because of their commoner status. Unions were formed to represent them. Coincident with this the social justice issues taking root supported the little guy.

Social justice issues were taught in the schools.

I believe in the 60’s the social justices issues were imprinted on Catholics and continue to this day. The divide comes when Catholics who agree with social justice issues denied the Magisterial authority of the Church. They do not often attend Mass.

And there are those that respect the Magisterial authority. These attend Mass weekly.

 

[b_justb]

Originally Posted by buffalo:
Theory 1 - Democrat Catholics really like the Church’s teachings on social justice, but fail to put these teachings in context.

Interesting. I personally struggle with this very thing. Politically I find myself leaning more conservative, but not the tin foil hat wearing type. And I do find myself seriously looking at Social Justice Issues to see if my attitudes are aligning with Church teachings. Yesterday we had a great OT reading about fasting. Gotta quote it:

Isaiah 58:6, 7 “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?”

In light of this thread and your assertion about people being politically liberal and not putting it into context or maybe perspective: How do I (or we) who think the conservative political agenda is best for Social Issues (raising people up out of poverty through education and allowing them free choice of how to spend their money instead of the Gov’t being the big brother of hand outs for generation after generation) gel that with the immediate needs of the impoverished right now? When and how do we help people right now that are in need without just becoming enablers of the poor to remain poor? Does this make sense?

If we help and they rise up it’s a victory for all. If we help and it just produces or enables generational poverty it is failure for all.

 

[buffalo]

b_justb:

Interesting. I personally struggle with this very thing. Politically I find myself leaning more conservative, but not the tin foil hat wearing type. And I do find myself seriously looking at Social Justice Issues to see if my attitudes are aligning with Church teachings. Yesterday we had a great OT reading about fasting. Gotta quote it:

Isaiah 58:6, 7 “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?”

In light of this thread and your assertion about people being politically liberal and not putting it into context or maybe perspective: How do I (or we) who think the conservative political agenda is best for Social Issues (raising people up out of poverty through education and allowing them free choice of how to spend their money instead of the Gov’t being the big brother of hand outs for generation after generation) gel that with the immediate needs of the impoverished right now? When and how do we help people right now that are in need without just becoming enablers of the poor to remain poor? Does this make sense?

If we help and they rise up it’s a victory for all. If we help and it just produces or enables generational poverty it is failure for all.

Charity. The safety net is in place for the poor right now. However, sloth can trap them into the cycle. The breaking of the cycle has to begin with them.

 

[b_justb]

Charity. The safety net is in place for the poor right now. However, sloth can trap them into the cycle. The breaking of the cycle has to begin with them.

I was thinking similar. But I must confess it still causes me to seriously keep looking inwardly to see what I’m doing. One day we’ll all stop struggling.

 

[Fitz]

Fitz:

I will look for the article. I actually took this premis from another poster but I did not doubt it because I had heard it on the radio many times. I think you are right to want a source. I will go checking…

You are right that I can find articles that say more Catholics that go to mass weekly supported Bush. It does not include stats for the support of the war. I know I have heard it on the radio and I will keep looking. I agree that people who are supports of right to life might be the major reason.
people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=31400
66.195.16.55/nat577.html
commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htm
commonwealmagazine.org/article.php?id_article=1032
amconmag.com/2005/2005_08_29/article.html
michnews.com/artman/publish/article_9133.shtml

The above articles are almost all on Catholics and the war, not necessarily the stats I wanted

 

[vern_humphrey]

b_justb:

I was thinking similar. But I must confess it still causes me to seriously keep looking inwardly to see what I’m doing. One day we’ll all stop struggling.

The safety net is also the trap. I can take you places in Arkansas where you can find four generations on welfare. In some places, young girls regard pregnancy as a rite of passage – “I get my own check now.”

On the other side of the ledger is our absimally poor education system. While there are some good public schools, they are montly in the affluent areas. There are schools in some poor areas that aren’t much better than prisons.

Here in Arkansas, we have 22% adult illiteracy state-wide. In some counties, it approaches 50%. Those counties are also the poorest counties in the nation.

 

[buffalo]

vern humphrey:

The safety net is also the trap. I can take you places in Arkansas where you can find four generations on welfare. In some places, young girls regard pregnancy as a rite of passage – “I get my own check now.”

On the other side of the ledger is our absimally poor education system. While there are some good public schools, they are montly in the affluent areas. There are schools in some poor areas that aren’t much better than prisons.

Here in Arkansas, we have 22% adult illiteracy state-wide. In some counties, it approaches 50%. Those counties are also the poorest counties in the nation.

So what exactly did people do before the income tax was started?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

Fitz:

You are right that I can find articles that say more Catholics that go to mass weekly supported Bush. It does not include stats for the support of the war. I know I have heard it on the radio and I will keep looking. I agree that people who are supports of right to life might be the major reason.

I agree. I think that Catholics who voted for Bush voted more on pro-life issues than on pro-war issues.

At least, I hope so. I’d hate to think that supporting a war was more important in Catholic Republican minds than defending the unborn.