Pacifism and Catholocism

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buffalo:
So what exactly did people do before the income tax was started?
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I’m not sure what you mean by that. Before the income tax, people kept and managed their own money.

Public schools – in most states – are funded not by the income tax, but the property tax.
 
Arba Sicula:
I agree. I think that Catholics who voted for Bush voted more on pro-life issues than on pro-war issues.

At least, I hope so. I’d hate to think that supporting a war was more important in Catholic minds than defending the unborn.
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Pro-life issues were foremost. The war issue fell under the Catholic teachings of legitimate defense and the teaching that war is not intrinsically evil as abortion and euthanasia are.

They could accept the war under the prudential judgement teaching.
 
vern humphrey:
I’m not sure what you mean by that. Before the income tax, people kept and managed their own money.

Public schools – in most states – are funded not by the income tax, but the property tax.
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I was referring to the social programs.
 
Arba Sicula:
I agree. I think that Catholics who voted for Bush voted more on pro-life issues than on pro-war issues.

At least, I hope so. I’d hate to think that supporting a war was more important in Catholic Republican minds than defending the unborn.
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I am a Catholic Republican (used to be Democrat) that was voting for both issues really. I did not trust the Democrats to make the right decisions on either of those issues. I found the Democratic Catholic Senator in my state to have the worst voting record on life issues.
 
Pacificsm has never been taught by the Church. It has not been revealed as truth and it goes against reason, so the Church would not teach this.
 
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buffalo:
I was referring to the social programs.
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The “social programs” were handled by churches, families, and local communities. They managed to help people without destroying either their dignity or their will to work.
 
vern humphrey:
The “social programs” were handled by churches, families, and local communities. They managed to help people without destroying either their dignity or their will to work.
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Bingo! Maybe we should try that again.
 
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buffalo:
Bingo! Maybe we should try that again.
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Absolutely – we could also start paying the Social Security surplus back to the people who paid it in, instead of ripping it off and squandering it.

With a little work and foresight, we could make people far more prosperous and self-supporting.
 
sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.election&item=confession_signers
Confessing Christ in a World of Violence
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Our world is wracked with violence and war. But Jesus said: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God” (Matt. 5:9). Innocent people, at home and abroad, are increasingly threatened by terrorist attacks. But Jesus said: “Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you” (Matt. 5:44). These words, which have never been easy, seem all the more difficult today.
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… Does Christian “realism” mean resigning ourselves to an endless future of “pre-emptive wars”? Does it mean turning a blind eye to torture and massive civilian casualties? Does it mean acting out of fear and resentment rather than intelligence and restraint?
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Faithfully confessing Christ is the church’s task, and never more so than when its confession is co-opted by militarism and nationalism.
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  • A “theology of war,” emanating from the highest circles of American government, is seeping into our churches as well.
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  • The language of “righteous empire” is employed with growing frequency.
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  • The roles of God, church, and nation are confused by talk of an American “mission” and “divine appointment” to “rid the world of evil.”
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The security issues before our nation allow no easy solutions. No one has a monopoly on the truth. But a policy that rejects the wisdom of international consultation should not be baptized by religiosity…
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In this time of crisis, we need a new confession of Christ.
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  1. Jesus Christ, as attested in Holy Scripture, knows no national boundaries. Those who confess his name are found throughout the earth. Our allegiance to Christ takes priority over national identity…
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We reject the false teaching that any nation-state can ever be described with the words, “the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.” These words, used in scripture, apply only to Christ. No political or religious leader has the right to twist them in the service of war.
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  1. Christ commits Christians to a strong presumption against war. The wanton destructiveness of modern warfare strengthens this obligation. Standing in the shadow of the Cross, Christians have a responsibility to count the cost, speak out for the victims, and explore every alternative before a nation goes to war. We are committed to international cooperation rather than unilateral policies.
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We reject the false teaching that a war on terrorism takes precedence over ethical and legal norms. **Some things ought never be done - torture, the deliberate bombing of civilians, the use of indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction - regardless of the consequences. **
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  1. Christ commands us to see not only the splinter in our adversary’s eye, but also the beam in our own. The distinction between good and evil does not run between one nation and another, or one group and another. It runs straight through every human heart.
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We reject the false teaching that America is a “Christian nation,” representing only virtue, while its adversaries are nothing but vicious. We reject the belief that America has nothing to repent of, even as we reject that it represents most of the world’s evil…
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  1. Christ shows us that enemy-love is the heart of the gospel. While we were yet enemies, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8, 10). We are to show love to our enemies even as we believe God in Christ has shown love to us and the whole world. Enemy-love does not mean capitulating to hostile agendas or domination. It does mean refusing to demonize any human being created in God’s image.
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We reject the false teaching that any human being can be defined as outside the law’s protection. We reject the demonization of perceived enemies, which only paves the way to abuse; and we reject the mistreatment of prisoners, regardless of supposed benefits to their captors.
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  1. Christ teaches us that humility is the virtue befitting forgiven sinners…
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We reject the false teaching that those who are not for the United States politically are against it or that those who fundamentally question American policies must be with the “evil-doers.” Such crude distinctions, especially when used by Christians, are expressions of the Manichaean heresy, in which the world is divided into forces of absolute good and absolute evil.
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The Lord Jesus Christ is either authoritative for Christians, or he is not. His Lordship cannot be set aside by any earthly power. His words may not be distorted for propagandistic purposes. No nation-state may usurp the place of God.
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We believe that acknowledging these truths is indispensable for followers of Christ. We urge them to remember these principles in making their decisions as citizens. Peacemaking is central to our vocation in a troubled world where Christ is Lord.
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Hiya,

I am sure it has all been said, but I don’t think supporting the war places Catholics at odds with The Faith, necessarily.

I guess it depends on WHY they support the war.

If there convinced the Bushnistas are attempting to avert a greater evil, then those Catholics are in line with Church Tradition.

Where the REAL contradiction lies, I believe, is how pro-warriors COMPLETELY DISGARD THEIR LEADERSHIP … and especially a leader who fundamentally defines Catholicism, The Pope.

That floors me.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has tried to argue against such a paradox has fallen completely flat, and most just ignore the conflict with El Papa altogether. They beat their chests, claim anyone who makes a suggesting to be a raving leftist of some sort, and generally slither off to another thread.

It is important to understand war and national security can be debated by Catholics.
 
  1. Vatican wants us to stay the course now.
  2. The Catechism states that it is the responsibility of the civil authority, not the Pope, not the Bishops, not the clergy, to determine if we go to war or not.
I don’t see how that is ‘falling flat’. Please cut the ad hominems.
 
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kelso:
If there convinced the Bushnistas are attempting to avert a greater evil, then those Catholics are in line with Church Tradition.
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Is name-calling and labeling really necessary?
 
vern humphrey:
Is name-calling and labeling really necessary?
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How is using “Bushista” name-calling? I’ve seen “Bushie” and “Clintonista” on this Forum.

One can tell whether an appellation is intended as a insult or not. Political correctness need not alway rule, Mr. Humphrey.
 
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