Pagan Ceremony incorporated in Mass

[CollegeCatholic]

Church Militant:

Just for the record: Definiions.
The Church Militant=The Christians still on earth.
The Church Suffering=The Christians in Purgatory.
The Church Triumphant=The Saints in Heaven.

One problem that we have in our society is that we are afraid to make silly ideas look as silly as they really are. That’s not right either. In “trashing” those ideas, one shows just how empty of merit such things are.

So long as any person espouses falsehoods and misinformation about our most holy faith with passion, I believe that Catholics ought to have the courage to deliver our refutations with equal passion. I have not used ad hominem nor have I made any personal attacks upon anyone here on CAF and I have no intention of beginning now, but whenever someone from another faith (or even one of our misguided own for that matter) asserts factual inaccuracies or distortions of Catholic teaching, those errors and allegations deserve to be met with truth and decimated so that the poor soul who proposed it will (for the love of God!) begin to question the sources of his errors and (God willing) begin to seek the facts for themself and then make their own informed decision. But treating such allegations with kid gloves is a mistake IMO.
Pax vobiscum,

You sound like an ideal College student… that’s my job.

You seem to be treating things black and white. All I can say is that there is no such thing as evil, in the concrete, only distortion of the good. All people will for the best but the unfortunate fact is that their wills (including ours) are often twisted/disordered. As such, when someone takes a passionate stance, it is important to remember where it is coming from. If they are attacking the Church, it is most likely because they feel that the Church is a threat and they will to protect the world and/or themselves from it. As such, we should redirect that will to protect the world away from the Church and towards the relativism that is the true threat. Words such as “trash” and “decimate” don’t seem to fall in line with “gentle,” “humble,” “charitable,” as the former words seek to throw out and destroy rather than redirect and fix. Someone who seeks to “trash and decimate” my point of view/ideas comes off much more like an enemy than someone who is looking to help me. I am very much like you in that I am passionate about ideas but we must remember that ideas come from people who more often than not feel attachment to their ideas, misguided or not.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I do wonder how this verse may be in context of this thread…

Deuteronomy 12:4
"Do not worship the LORD your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods.

How does this apply to the practices (catholic or protestant) we hold so dear today…

 

[tjmiller]

Find a better “translation”.

 

[Singinbeauty]

tjmiller:

Find a better “translation”.

Wow, what a good response… so informative…

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Singinbeauty:

I do wonder how this verse may be in context of this thread…

Deuteronomy 12:4
“Do not worship the LORD your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods.”

How does this apply to the practices (catholic or protestant) we hold so dear today…

That could apply to anything. Don’t sacrifice things, don’t gather in groups, don’t gather at night, don’t use fire (candles, incense), don’t make monuments in honor, the list goes on…We would be entirely able to worship if we took this as a literal condemnation of all forms of pagan worship.

 

[tjmiller]

“Find a better translation” - few better words have ever been spoken.

 

[SolaChristo]

The New King James Version
Deuteronomy 12: 1 - 32 - Study This Chapter
1 "These are the statutes and judgments which you shall be careful to observe in the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2 You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 And you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place. 4 You shall not worship the Lord your God with such things.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

The New American Bible
Leviticus 9: 19 - 21 - Study This Chapter

19 The portions of fat from the ox and from the ram, the fatty tail, the fatty membrane over the inner organs, the two kidneys, with the fat that is on them, and the lobe of the liver, 20 he placed on top of the breasts and burned them on the altar, 21 having first waved the breasts and the right legs as a wave offering before the LORD, in keeping with the LORD’S command to Moses.

 

[SolaChristo]

Deut 12:1 THESE ARE the statutes and ordinances which you shall be watchful to do in the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, gives you to possess all the days you live on the earth.
Deut 12:2 You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations you dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains and the hills and under every green tree
Deut 12:3 You shall break down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire; you shall hew down the graven images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place.
Deut 12:4 You shall not behave so toward the Lord your God.
Deut 12:5 But you shall seek the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put His Name and make His dwelling place, and there shall you come;
Deut 12:6 And there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the offering of your hands, and your vows and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock.
Deut 12:7 And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice in all to which you put your hand, you and your households, in which the Lord your God has blessed you.
Deut 12:8 You shall not do according to all we do here [in the camp] this day, every man doing whatever looks right in his own eyes.
Deut 12:9 For you have not yet come to the rest and to the inheritance which the Lord your God gives you.

 

[deb1]

If you take this section apart verse by verse then yes, Catholics are keeping to it. Of course the problem with quoting any old testament verse, especially those in the book of Deuteronomy is that there are so many verses that we would never consider following. For example: Do you advocate the stoning of disobediant male children? What about the stoning of bethrothed women who don’t cry out during a rape? What about eating rare meat? Do you wear a garmet woven with two different clothes? Do you own a mixed breed dog? All of these are spoken against in the bible.

SolaChristo:

Deut 12:1 THESE ARE the statutes and ordinances which you shall be watchful to do in the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, gives you to possess all the days you live on the earth.

Deut 12:2     You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations you dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains and the hills and under every green tree
Deut 12:3     You shall break down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire; you shall hew down the graven images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place.

Catholics do not have the alters are pillars of other gods in our churches. Nor do we have images of other Gods Does this verse mean that we need to go to a Muslim Temple or a Buddhist shrine and destroy it? I think that if you take this whole section to apply to us today then in good conscious we must follow God and go out and destroy other places of worship that aren’t Christian. We will probably wind up in jail, of course.

Deut 12:4     You shall not behave so toward the Lord your God.
Deut 12:5     But you shall seek the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put His Name and make His dwelling place, and there shall you come;

I go to church every Sunday.

Deut 12:6 And there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the offering of your hands, and your vows and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock.

We don’t make burnt offerings any more but we do in a spiritual sense bring our sacrifices before God, so we are keeping this verse.

Deut 12:7     And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice in all to which you put your hand, you and your households, in which the Lord your God has blessed you.

Wouldn’t this be communion? Do you eat in your church?

Deut 12:8 You shall not do according to all we do here [in the camp] this day, every man doing whatever looks right in his own eyes.
Deut 12:9 For you have not yet come to the rest and to the inheritance which the Lord your God gives you.

 

[SolaChristo]

Nicene:

Paul used a pagan temple, the temple of the unknown God, and said it was the temple of God in Athens. Would that be considered scandelous today?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Only if he went into a mosque and kissed the quaran
Did Paul incorporate pagan worhip into how he worshipped?

 

[deb1]

SolaChristo:

Only if he went into a mosque and kissed the quaran
Did Paul incorporate pagan worhip into how he worshipped?

Well, Paul certainly wasn’t following the verses in Deuteronomy that you wrote down for us. Shouldn’t he have torn down those places?

 

[SolaChristo]

Church Militant:

You’re not the first person to tell me that, and I’m flattered, but I was called to a married vocation at a young age, and have a wonderful Catholic wife and 3 grown sons.

Oh for the commandments of men.

In answering questions like this one, it’s important to insure that everyone knows that the allegation is not supported by the facts. The Catholic Church teaches that Tarot and other such things are non-Christian and can put a person in danger of possession or oppression, but that is totally unrelated to the use of sweetgrass incense at the funeral Mass for an American Indian, which is quite alright.

I have not commented on the others statements realizing the statements were really off the mark. It doesnt matter what the RCC teaches about tarot or cystal bals etal they should in no way be owned played with or taken lightly by any Christian.

I am never interested in opposing a person, but I am committed to opposing those anti-Catholic assertions that might in some way confuse Catholics who don’t know better. (Hey, I didn’t know better at one time and I was led astray as well!) Non-Catholics very often are sincere in their remarks but abysmally lacking in the knowledge. They (generally) have not been taught Christian history and from what I’ve seen from some friends, when they are it is a very minimal version and often biased to their own sect. Oftentimes, they have been taught that a particular belief is Biblical but not exposed to the balance of the context of scripture on that topic. This is one reason that I feel (and so does the Church) that Catholics need to read their Bibles. It’s so important that the church offers a plenary indulgence for it! Knowing our most holy faith is crucial.

Incorporating pagan ceremonies, feasts and festivals are clearly unbiblical!!!

If I wasn’t dead sure of the truth of the Catholic faith, I sure wouldn’t be Catholic and have to take all this guff from folks who don’t like it. I’d embrace one of the n-C religions and “ride out” in what I have come to call “Christianity Lite”. It would be the easy way out for me!

NO one is giving you gruuff, Stop acting like a victum .

But I can’t. I believe in absolute truth and I believe that when one discovers it one is morally bound to follow it no matter where it leads, and it lead me home to the Catholic Church after over 34 years away. (Read about it HERE.)
Pax tecum,

 

[SolaChristo]

deb1:

Well, Paul certainly wasn’t following the verses in Deuteronomy that you wrote down for us. Shouldn’t he have torn down those places?

A different translation was asked for ----I provided it. If I was making commentary I would have added it.

 

[deb1]

SolaChristo:

A different translation was asked for ----I provided it. If I was making commentary I would have added it.

I am not trying to be rude to you, so I am trying very hard to word my next comments in a polite manner. What does your intention to make commentary have to do with my posting? This is a public forum and anything that you post can be used as a jumping off point in the flow of conversation.

 

[Church_Militant]

Originally Posted by SolaChristo

Oh for the commandments of men.I’m sorry… did you miss something in your Bible study?

Matthew 19:10-12
"10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. "

1st Corinthians 7:6-9
“6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.” (Emphasis mine)

Originally Posted by SolaChristo

I have not commented on the others statements realizing the statements were really off the mark. It doesnt matter what the RCC teaches about tarot or cystal bals etal they should in no way be owned played with or taken lightly by any Christian.No one said that they should…You launch a devastating attack on a straw man here. The Catholic Church denounces all such things. But what matter is it as to what incense is burnt at a given Mass? None whatsoever, except to respect the culture of the deceased.

Originally Posted by SolaChristo

Incorporating pagan ceremonies, feasts and festivals are clearly unbiblical!!!Do you plan to give your fiance an engagement ring SC? Do you plan to exchange wedding rings and wear them? The Catholic Church hasn’t done any such thing and you would do well to get your facts straight before alleging such. If you want me to deal with this allegation open a thread on it and cite specifics so that we can respond to it. Speaking also of unbiblical, so are the doctrines of the Bible alone and faith alone as well as eternal security…but we won’t go there on this thread.

Originally Posted by SolaChristo

NO one is giving you gruuff, Stop acting like a victum .Who do you think you’re talking to? That’s uncalled for!

I have never implied that I feel like a “victim” and take too much “guff”, but the fact is that guys like you are the very ones who make absymally ignorant assertions about what we believe and teach and then flatly refuse to listen to us when we answer your remarks.

Worse still, ALL the information that we wind up giving you is easliy available on the CA ma(name removed by moderator)age library and other good Catholic sites and sources so that if you were really interested you could get these answers without having to actually post to a forum like this. Like this article on Is Catholicism Pagan? which I have no doubt that you have not bothered to read.

Originally Posted by SolaChristo
Only if he went into a mosque and kissed the quaran

Does the presence of a believer in a non-Christian place constitute sin? If so ya better stay outta Wal-Mart! Might better not leave your house or apartment! But what if a satan worshipper lived there before you? Does that make it wrong for you to live there too?

Kissing that Quran was nothing more than a expression of respect for another religion’s scriptures. Does that mean that His Holiness and the Catholic Church embrace those beliefs? Absolutely not! No more than you shopping at Walmart means that you approve of all their policies and practices, or your use of A.T.& T. indicates that you approve of their support for gay and lesbian organizations for their employees and their support of Planned Parenthood. Unless of course you really DO?
Pax tecum,

 

[SolaChristo]

deb1:

I am not trying to be rude to you, so I am trying very hard to word my next comments in a polite manner. What does your intention to make commentary have to do with my posting? This is a public forum and anything that you post can be used as a jumping off point in the flow of conversation.

I thought you were addressing me.

To address your question. Paul should have torn down any pagan idols if they were in a place where he worshipped or other Christians worshipped. Since he was just going into a public place where idols were he did not. IMHO

 

[SolaChristo]

Church Militant:

I’m sorry… did you miss something in your Bible study?

Yes —Mark 1
1:30
But Simon’s wife’s mother lay sick with a fever, and they told Him about her at once.

No one said that they should…You launch a devastating attack on a straw man here. The Catholic Church denounces all such things. But what matter is it as to what incense is burnt at a given Mass? None whatsoever, except to respect the culture of the deceased.

Please read the posts on the thread which say that such items can be redeemedsuch articles.

Do you plan to give your fiance an engagement ring SC? Do you plan to exchange wedding rings and wear them?

I dont know the history of the wedding ring please expound

The Catholic Church hasn’t done any such thing and you would do well to get your facts straight before alleging such. If you want me to deal with this allegation open a thread on it and cite specifics so that we can respond to it.

I have my facts straight.

Speaking also of unbiblical, so are the doctrines of the Bible alone and faith alone as well as eternal security…but we won’t go there on this thread.

If you didnt want to go there why did you bring it up.

Who do you think you’re talking to? That’s uncalled for!

Excuse me? you who act as if every polemic is a chapter from the WWF. In a previous post you said what I posted was bunk.
I have never implied that I feel like a “victim” and take too much “guff”,
You yourself made that assertion.

but the fact is that guys like you are the very ones who make absymally ignorant assertions about what we believe and teach and then flatly refuse to listen to us when we answer your remarks.

Give an example. Or are you fishing.

Worse still, ALL the information that we wind up giving you is easliy available on the CA ma(name removed by moderator)age library and other good Catholic sites and sources so that if you were really interested you could get these answers without having to actually post to a forum like this. Like this article on Is Catholicism Pagan?

Dont know why you posted this?

Does the presence of a believer in a non-Christian place constitute sin?

What did I say that made you think this? Where do you get this stuff from?

Kissing that Quran was nothing more than a expression of respect for another religion’s scriptures. Does that mean that His Holiness and the Catholic Church embrace those beliefs? Absolutely not! No more than you shopping at Walmart means that you approve of all their policies and practices, or your use of A.T.& T. indicates that you approve of their support for gay and lesbian organizations for their employees and their support of Planned Parenthood. Unless of course you really DO?

It was a mistake to kiss the quran plain and simple.Pax tecum,

 

[bear06]

There’s one thing to take a pagan element and to make it Christian and it’s another thing to do a pagan ceremony. In our diocese, our old bishop used to do the pagan prayer to the East, West, North and South. Hello?!!! That’s actually praying to other gods. It would be quite another thing to use sweetgrass instead of incense. Now if the person with the sweetgrass started chanting an incantation calling the gods, I’d have a problem.

I’m betting the people complaining about this not only think wedding rings are fine but I’m betting they also just got rid of their Christmas trees a few weeks ago. Yikes. You can’t get more pagan than the Christmas tree!

As far as the Koran, Fulton Sheen showed how we should use the truth found in it (yes, it does have truth) to covert the Muslims:
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4000

 

[Michael_Francis]

General Warning:
Remain on topic directly relative to the OP or this thread will be closed.