Pagans, especially Wiccans....

[SamG]

More recently I have been dealing more and more with pagans. People who believe in reincarnation and things of that sort. The biggest problem I’ve faced is with Wiccans. Because I do not know very much about Wicca and cannot find very reliable information, I am unable to apologize to them properly. I was hoping someone could enlighten me about Wicca. Its basic beliefs, traditions, etc.

Thanks very much.

 

[Karin]

What would care to know…there are many good books regarding this and many good web-sites.

Here is something to start you off…
The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief
Written and compiled by George Knowles.

1.We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal Quarters and Cross Quarters
2.We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility toward our environment. We seek to live in harmony with nature in ecological balance offering fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept
3.We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary it is sometimes called ‘supernatural’, but we see it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all.
4.We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity – as masculine and feminine – and that this same Creative Power lies in all people and functions through the interaction of the masculine and the feminine. We value neither above the other knowing each to be supportive of the other. We value sex as pleasure as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energy used in magical practice and religious worship
5.We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological worlds sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconsciousness, the Inner Planes etc – and we see in the interaction of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal phenomena and magical exercises. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment
6.We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership

 

[Karin]

continued…

7.We see religion, magick and wisdom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it – a world view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft – the Wiccan Way.
8.Calling oneself ‘Witch’ does not make a Witch – but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations. A Witch seek to control the forces within her/himself that make life possible in order to live wisely and without harm to others and in harmony with nature
9.We believe in the affirmation and fulfillment of life in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness giving meaning to the Universe we know and our personal role within it.
**10.**Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be ‘the only way’ and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief
11.As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present and our future
12.We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as ‘Satan’ or ‘the Devil’ as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor accept that personal benefit can be derived only by denial to another
13.We believe that we should seek within Nature that which is contributory to our health and well-being.

Hope this helps…

 

[Pentecost2005]

SamG:

Because I do not know very much about Wicca and cannot find very reliable information, I am unable to apologize to them properly.

What do you want to apologize to them for? That you’re sorry they’re so… lost? confused? ill-informed? misguided?

Unless you’re personally responsible for that TV show “Charmed,” in which case you can apologize to ME.

 

[Pentecost2005]

Notice the emphasis on nature. Notice also that the only reasons “Wiccans” don’t like Christianity – for example, the Catholic Church – is because the Church tells them that they’re wrong. And they refuse to accept the concept that anything is “wrong.” Things may be “hurtful,” apparently, but never wrong. So, they “honor those who teach” – but only as long as the “teachers” tell them what they want to hear. Truth is beside the point, apparently.

 

[SamG]

Pentecost2005:

What do you want to apologize to them for? That you’re sorry they’re so… lost? confused? ill-informed? misguided?

Unless you’re personally responsible for that TV show “Charmed,” in which case you can apologize to ME.

A very good friend of mine is Wiccan, so it so kind of a personal issue.

 

[Karin]

Pentecost2005:

Notice the emphasis on nature. Notice also that the only reasons “Wiccans” don’t like Christianity – for example, the Catholic Church – is because the Church tells them that they’re wrong. And they refuse to accept the concept that anything is “wrong.” Things may be “hurtful,” apparently, but never wrong. So, they “honor those who teach” – but only as long as the “teachers” tell them what they want to hear. Truth is beside the point, apparently.

***10.**Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, **is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be ‘the only way’ and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief

---

 

[cheddarsox]

I can tell you something that is NOT useful. To say “the Bible says” or “The Church says…” Many times Christians approach pagans this way, not “getting” that for someone who has another faith with its own history and teachings, they don’t feel bound to see yours as truth.

I know this sounds really elemental, but it can be very hard for a person who is so secure in their Christian faith to really understand that there are folks who don’t measure the universe with the same yardstick. It is reality to you, so it is impossible to understand that other people not only don’t see it as reality, but don’t even give it the time of day.

Lots of folks lump my faith into paganism, and I hang with lots of pagans, and that ONE thing is the biggest issue I see.

Christians have a hard time understanding and accepting that pagans aren’t just acting out against Christianity, but really believe, live and accept as reality, their own pagan faith.

Often there is such a gap in world view, and experience that it can be hard for Christians to communicate. In the USA, pagans have the upper hand in this instance, in that they understand Christian mindset because they are exposed to it through culture, but many Christians have not truly been exposed to the mindset of another faith.

Christians assume they understand the “pagan” mindset, and that it involves “believing whatever makes you feel good” etc. etc. But have no real understanding or respect that there are other religions and philosophies out there.

If all a person can see is that people either believe in Christianity or they are entirely deluded, then it is unlikely that a non-Christian is going to take anything that person says seriously.

It is foolish to assume that all pagans follow the religion of self. That is a misinformed view. Many spend much time, effort, in ritual, prayer, discipline, ethics, works, etc. People practice their religions for the same reason you practice yours, to know and serve your deity and to align yourself with right practice for the good of yourself, the world and to honor the truth.

If you enter a conversation with that level of understanding and human respect, even if you don’t know the details of the other person’s faith, you can have a good dialogue.

cheddar

 

[Mijoy2]

Where did the list of 13 originate? It appears as if it were documented on the fly in someones living room over a few glasses of wine. It’s amazing that people can attach themselves to something such as this and deem it worthy.

I think it reflects how far our society has drifted in different directions. Just this morning while reading The Boston Herald, the front page article referes to how sex scenes on TV has double d since 1998 (I believe it was). The article then seems to go on to make the point how “safe sex” almost never works it’s way into the scene. Implying pulling out a condom before said scene would legitimize it. Ahhh now it’s okay.

Safe sex, in our society is widely accepted as responsible and without any immoral tone. If the sex is “safe” it is admirable. Having late teen, twenty something daughters, I, in great pain and angiush, contimplate how God factors into such sin the effect society has on an individuals accountability. Does it lessen the individuals “full consent” and “full Knowledge” components of mortal sin, when the society they live in has drilled into thier heads they are not only not doingsomething wrong, they are doing something admirable. And they honestly believe there is nothing immoral or wrong in thier actions. This troubles me more then I can begin to express.

I think I drifted off topic… sorry.

 

[Karin]

Mijoy2:

Where did the list of 13 originate? It appears as if it were documented on the fly in someones living room over a few glasses of wine. It’s amazing that people can attach themselves to something such as this and deem it worthy. .

The list of 13 came fromhere…it is not a definite for all Wiccans but a majority follow some if not all and some follow others. Here are some other beliefs of Wiccans…CLICK HERE
And most if not all of what Wiccans believe has been established over time (just as any other faith) and not on the fly over a bottle of wine …it actually is a very old religion.

 

[Brendan]

Pentecost2005:

What do you want to apologize to them for? That you’re sorry they’re so… lost? confused? ill-informed? misguided?

Unless you’re personally responsible for that TV show “Charmed,” in which case you can apologize to ME.

I think what is meant here by ‘Apologize’, as in conduct Apologetics, to engage in a rational debate on religious beliefs.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Karin:

The list of 13 came fromhere…it is not a definite for all Wiccans but a majority follow some if not all and some follow others. Here are some other beliefs of Wiccans…CLICK HERE
And most if not all of what Wiccans believe has been established over time (just as any other faith) and not on the fly over a bottle of wine …it actually is a very old religion.

How old is it?
Can you explain how paganism passed on its original beliefs to your generation from antiquity?
Paganism was never a written religion, there are no original ancient pagan manuscripts, and since Christianitys conversion of the pagans, their original exact beliefs have died out nearly 2000 years ago.
How can you pick up the original lost thread of paganism.
It is more likely neo-paganism is of your own creation, and is about as useful as positive-thinking (whatever that is).

 

[Sherlock]

Did you mean “apologize”, as in you need to apologize for something offensive that you said to this person (in which case, “I’m sorry” ought to work), or did you mean something else? Did you mean to say “evangelize”, using apologetics?

 

[Karin]

I Leatherman:

Can you explain how paganism passed on its original beliefs to your generation from antiquity?
Paganism was never a written religion, there are no original ancient pagan manuscripts, and since Christianitys conversion of the pagans, their original exact beliefs have died out nearly 2000 years ago.
How can you pick up the original lost thread of paganism.
It is more likely neo-paganism is of your own creation, and is about as useful as positive-thinking (whatever that is).

**I am only partly versed in the history of Wiccan…I never stated I was Wiccan or Pagan…so please do not assume things Perhaps a Wiccan could reply to your post better **

 

[Karin]

I Leatherman:

How old is it?
Can you explain how paganism passed on its original beliefs to your generation from antiquity?
Paganism was never a written religion, there are no original ancient pagan manuscripts, and since Christianitys conversion of the pagans, their original exact beliefs have died out nearly 2000 years ago.
How can you pick up the original lost thread of paganism.
It is more likely neo-paganism is of your own creation, and is about as useful as positive-thinking (whatever that is).

** I can offer what I have found …perhaps this may answer some of your questions.???**
*** “***The history of Wicca is a much debated topic. Gardner claimed that the religion was a survival of matriarchal Pagan religions of pre-historic Europe.” (SOURCE)

 

[I_Leatherman]

Karin,
Hi, I didnt assume you were wiccan or pagan but replied to the content of your post. You assumed a defence of wiccan/pagan and I assumed the opposite argument. Please read one and one’s for you and yours. Bye :ehh:

 

[SPOKENWORD]

I do know they call their heaven Summerland. Sounds like a real hot place to be. Christians would call it hell. God Bless

 

[Maryam]

Having been a practicioner of Wicca as I have posted in another thread I can say that I went from practicing the Gardnerian form of Wicca, to being a Solitary practicioner and then on to its Italian form called “Stregheria”.

From my own experience and having interacted with other Wiccans, many will fall into 2 different categories: Firstly, those seeking a higher magical power in order to feel a closer union with the natural power in the world and secondly those seeking to do magical spells because it seems “cool”.

Most of the rituals which involve invoking the Gods/Goddesses, infusing the power of the moon into the objects being used in the rituals and so on…
The moons power and efficacy being dependant on what you are choosing to achieve. (waxing/waning/New Moon)

Whether you are looking to draw something or someone away from you, towards you or bring an end/beginning to something.

For those who have entered into Wicca and seriously seek this closer union with the natural powers of the world it can often lead into Higher Forms of Magic where one does invocation of Elementals, Angels and so on, which is very very dangerous territory to get into…

I find that most get into Wicca out of lack of a feeling of control in their lives and wanting to manipulate the environment around them. To those who want to say that Wicca is an ancient religion is false.

There is no ancient Wiccan system of practice… It is a mish mashing together of what is left in folk traditions and archaeological findings of what they “think” the Gods/Goddesses signify and the supposed rituals associated with them.

I have yet to see one person who can bring to light a Wiccan system of belief that is complete or near complete and that has been practiced in such a way for thousands of years.

Some may say “well, what about the indigenous pagan practices in this country or that country…?” Often times these indigenous cultures are not even European in origin so they hold no bearing as to whether one can say Wicca is valid or not.

I must repeat that these are My Experiences and what I have seen.

Wicca and other spiritualities seeking to manipulate the natural environment around you is all about connecting to the natural power OUTSIDE OF ONESELF whereas in Christianity we seek to GO WITHIN OURSELVES into our soul and in the cell of our soul pray alone to the Father. Christ the Lord Our God is within us if only we will accept and believe in HIM.

For many years I seeked magical power outside of myself and tried to find a connection…but, it never happened. Sure I had experiences that some would call psychic phenomena and feeling energy, but, I must admit that at times I felt a feeling of paranoia that something was always watching me and that I was cutting myself off from something (that something was CHRIST). To carry this feeling of “disconnection” is hard to describe.

I have seen too many times those that have dabbled into Wicca suffer from the same thing or later on start to experience nervous conditions and lose any sense of peace from within. This is where all those nice psychic experiences and energy manipulations start to show their true colors…

They all come from the DEVIL.

Thank God I came back to the Catholic church a few years ago… I may not be as faithful a Catholic as I would like to be, but, I have started to gain some of the peace I have lost and that feeling of paranoia and disconnection is gone.

God bless all

 

[Pentecost2005]

***10.***Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, **is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be ‘the only way’ and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief
**

So the Church is supposed to retract her claims about herself because some so-called “Wiccans” are offended by them?

And how, precisely, has the Church sought to suppress Wiccan activity?

 

[Karin]

Pentecost2005:

So the Church is supposed to retract her claims about herself because some so-called “Wiccans” are offended by them?

And how, precisely, has the Church sought to suppress Wiccan activity?

As I am not Wiccan…I do not know. Perhaps an acitve wiccan could reply to your post

But let me ask another question…does the Church attempt to suppress all that is not in line with her beliefs/laws etc.