Painful touch!

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for the support and reassurance.

This is one of those scenarios where you question the person you’ve lived with for more than 10 years. When you see them objectively (try to) its painful.

The hardest part for me is that he doesn’t intentionally do these things (in my opinion). He’s just not inspired to change lOng term.

I also struggle because he’s not a typical abuser. He’s a gas lighter!

Talk to your therapist. Gas lighting is just another form of manipulation and control, like the “suicide/divorce” business on the computer, the temper tantrums, and the other manipulations he’s willing to use. If he is at all what you describe, he is not as unusual as you think. He is someone who will unrepentantly lie in order to get what he wants, he is someone who does not particularly care about the feelings of those who care about him the most except with regards to whether they stay around for his use or not, and that doesn’t really break up into all that many exotic subspecies.

Take heart with this much: Manipulators don’t look for stupid people, but look for patient, good-hearted people when they look for someone who will let them settle in and take advantage. Many talented and generous and very smart people, men and women alike, put up with this for a long time before they can be convinced that they have been systematically lied to and that change is not going to happen.

Your case is not unusual, but I am afraid that you are in the best of company. Do be careful, though, because tragedies are also tragically common. Find good guidance, and be willing to believe them when they tell you they know what you’re up against. They’re not infallible, but unlike the guy at home, they will tell you the truth.

 

[Rainaldo]

He acted like a child and started searching “suicide/divorce” on our computer for me to see.

How, exactly, did he do that?

 

[EasterJoy]

How, exactly, did he do that?

It is* very much* worth asking the therapist what to do if the husband threatens suicide or implies that he might be considering suicide. A man who is afraid of losing his family and talking suicide is also a man at risk of committing a murder-suicide. It is not something to get hysterical about; it is something worth taking very seriously.

 

[missme22]

How, exactly, did he do that?

It was over a year ago. I told him we needed to separate. He got mad, started running into our son’s room telling our son that mOmmy doesn’t love daddy anymore.

I knew I had to get out of the house. I grabbed my son and took him to the mall and dinner to give my hubby time to cool down. When we got back… I was scared. But all I found was our laptop on the counter. The page left up was about suicide and divorce.

 

[EasterJoy]

It was over a year ago. I told him we needed to separate. He got mad, started running into our son’s room telling our son that mOmmy doesn’t love daddy anymore.

I knew I had to get out of the house. I grabbed my son and took him to the mall and dinner to give my hubby time to cool down. When we got back… I was scared. But all I found was our laptop on the counter. The page left up was about suicide and divorce.

This is important information. Should you decide to leave, do nothing until you’ve talked to someone about making a plan for getting out, and be sure to tell them everything like this, and what your husband had to say about it afterward.

I don’t say “should you decide to leave” because there is a question in my mind, but because this is still your decision and because it is out of place for someone on the internet who either has no professional backgrouund or who has not even met the person considering this decision. Theoretically, you’ve said more than enough for me to think that you are certain to want to get away from this person, because the risk of physical danger is not outweighed by any “risk” of amendment or desire on your part to try to endure your spouses choices if he does not amend his ways.

Always talk to a real person with real credentials, preferably several people with expertise on the various aspects of a problem that may require such a multi-faceted solution to be resolved prudently. This isn’t like brainstorming about a kid that won’t eat Grandma’s cooking, after all! This is your marriage and this is your son’s most fundamental well-being, not to mention yours. That puts the stakes far too high for our blood!

That is the real answer: this is way out of our league. If you’re looking for validation concerning the possible seriousness of what you’re dealing with, I think you’re getting ample validation for trusting your instincts!! If alerting you that such a thing as gaslighting exists helps you to trust that you know what you know, that was a very good thing, but do get real help with this!

 

[missme22]

You have excellent advice. And trust me I’m not taking this lightly. And your sentiments really echo those of my therapist. Honestly the reasons I’m still in this go back to trying to “forgive and forget” and because of my own fear. Like I said… It’s been a real battle to feel good enough on my own. My husband has been very good at keeping me “in check” as my therapist points out. When I get happy and energized… He’s always there to make me feel bad about it. I must admit he often tells me congrats or will tell me how he can’t believe how well I’ve turned out… Considering my past. But he will knock me down at times… By telling me my new employer is a joke… That my clothes are unflattering… Or my fav… When I’m in public and trying to hold my own at a networking function … He glares at me and makes me feel as if I’ve said something stupid. Or he will be quiet or rude. I don’t think he is always cognizant of it… But it’s harmful to me and my confidence.

He recently went on a trip a few weeks ago because I insisted that he visit his ailing mother … He hadn’t been home in 4 years! So I was a bit selfish because I had to work and craved the privacy… To see if I could handle it. I LOVED it. I felt wonderful! I missed my son of course…
But, I did not My husbands negativity.

It was a lesson for me. I used to think I’d die without him around… But it was the farthest from the truth. I enjoyed the peace.

This is important information. Should you decide to leave, do nothing until you’ve talked to someone about making a plan for getting out, and be sure to tell them everything like this, and what your husband had to say about it afterward.

I don’t say “should you decide to leave” because there is a question in my mind, but because this is still your decision and because it is out of place for someone on the internet who either has no professional backgrouund or who has not even met the person considering this decision. Theoretically, you’ve said more than enough for me to think that you are certain to want to get away from this person, because the risk of physical danger is not outweighed by any “risk” of amendment or desire on your part to try to endure your spouses choices if he does not amend his ways.

Always talk to a real person with real credentials, preferably several people with expertise on the various aspects of a problem that may require such a multi-faceted solution to be resolved prudently. This isn’t like brainstorming about a kid that won’t eat Grandma’s cooking, after all! This is your marriage and this is your son’s most fundamental well-being, not to mention yours. That puts the stakes far too high for our blood!

That is the real answer: this is way out of our league. If you’re looking for validation concerning the possible seriousness of what you’re dealing with, I think you’re getting ample validation for trusting your instincts!! If alerting you that such a thing as gaslighting exists helps you to trust that you know what you know, that was a very good thing, but do get real help with this!

 

[EasterJoy]

… will tell me how he can’t believe how well I’ve turned out… Considering my past…

This is a veiled put-down, too. It is a “yes, but” compliment, which usually has the effect of undermining the person and certainly prunes the compliment down to size:

That looks good on you, considering your weight.

That was an excellent effort, considering that you don’t practice enough.

You’re a polite person, for an American.

You drive very well, for a woman.

Your vocabulary is impressive, for a foreigner.

In other words, I’m going to deign to say something “nice”, while making it very clear that you’re still not someone I’d compare to those who are truly worthy of praise.

Is this kind of withholding always purposeful? No, sometimes it is just the bad habit of a stingy heart or a misguided desire to keep a person from becoming proud. Still, this kind of “compliment” has a bad effect, and the effect is as bad or worse if the recipient of the “praise” does not impute any ill intent in the stinginess of the praise.

Related is the “cut down” apology, which is really an excuse. It is when the “apology” is followed by a qualifying “but”.

I’m sorry I hurt you, but you really shouldn’t have been standing there.

I’m sorry I’m late, but you weren’t really clear about the time I was supposed to be here.

I’m sorry your boss is upset, but how was I supposed to know he’d be so sensitive?

And so on. Even flipping the order so that the apology comes after the excuse is better:

You shouldn’t have been standing there, but I’m still sorry I hurt you.

I didn’t know he was so sensitive, but I’m still sorry I upset your boss…

et cetera.

Of course, the best apology doesn’t make excuses, and even tries to make reparation:

I’m sorry I hurt you. Is there anything I can do?

I’m sorry your boss is upset. Do you think it would help if I apologized to him?

I’m sorry I’m late! Did you have to wait long for me?

Missme22, does your spouse ever give you unqualified compliments or unqualified apologies? How does this compare to your way of talking to him? More to the point: does he ever give unqualified praise or apologies to your son?

These are the kinds of things that adults with verbal abuse in their background can have a hard time picking up on, because sometimes the qualified praise was the only kind of praise they ever got, and something they treasured when they got it. This can get to the point that if they get actual unqualified praise, they might view it skeptically, as if a person giving out them unqualified praise must not have very high standards…poor things!!

 

[missme22]

Yes. My father was the king of this. I remember the day I brought him to see my first house I had just bought. He said “it’s very nice… If you don’t mind living on a postage stamp”.

As for my husband… He does this too. But he doesn’t do it as bad as he used to… Before therapy. He picked up a few useful tips… And will give unqualified praise from time to time. But it’s infrequent. He does praise our son. That I have hit him over the head with.

But this prob used to be SO much worse. That’s why I felt like I should give him a chance. He was changing… Some.

I went him tonight and discovered that my hubby for photos done of our son and sent them off to a talent agent. He never asked mutual opinion or permission. So I gues that’s how he feels he will rake in the $$$$ and keep me off his back.

QUOTE=EasterJoy;9200565]This is a veiled put-down, too. It is a “yes, but” compliment, which usually has the effect of undermining the person and certainly prunes the compliment down to size:

That looks good on you, considering your weight.

That was an excellent effort, considering that you don’t practice enough.

You’re a polite person, for an American.

You drive very well, for a woman.

Your vocabulary is impressive, for a foreigner.

In other words, I’m going to deign to say something “nice”, while making it very clear that you’re still not someone I’d compare to those who are truly worthy of praise.

Is this kind of withholding always purposeful? No, sometimes it is just the bad habit of a stingy heart or a misguided desire to keep a person from becoming proud. Still, this kind of “compliment” has a bad effect, and the effect is as bad or worse if the recipient of the “praise” does not impute any ill intent in the stinginess of the praise.

Related is the “cut down” apology, which is really an excuse. It is when the “apology” is followed by a qualifying “but”.

I’m sorry I hurt you, but you really shouldn’t have been standing there.

I’m sorry I’m late, but you weren’t really clear about the time I was supposed to be here.

I’m sorry your boss is upset, but how was I supposed to know he’d be so sensitive?

And so on. Even flipping the order so that the apology comes after the excuse is better:

You shouldn’t have been standing there, but I’m still sorry I hurt you.

I didn’t know he was so sensitive, but I’m still sorry I upset your boss…

et cetera.

Of course, the best apology doesn’t make excuses, and even tries to make reparation:

I’m sorry I hurt you. Is there anything I can do?

I’m sorry your boss is upset. Do you think it would help if I apologized to him?

I’m sorry I’m late! Did you have to wait long for me?

Missme22, does your spouse ever give you unqualified compliments or unqualified apologies? How does this compare to your way of talking to him? More to the point: does he ever give unqualified praise or apologies to your son?

These are the kinds of things that adults with verbal abuse in their background can have a hard time picking up on, because sometimes the qualified praise was the only kind of praise they ever got, and something they treasured when they got it. This can get to the point that if they get actual unqualified praise, they might view it skeptically, as if a person giving out them unqualified praise must not have very high standards…poor things!!

 

[exoflare]

All the rationalizations you bring up are the exact same ones a lot of victims bring up (“it’s not as bad as it used to be” etc…), but it’s still just a typical textbook case like all the rest of them.

outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/AbusiveCycle.html

Your situation isn’t unique, trust me. Please stop making excuses for this guy and just do what you have to do.

 

[missme22]

This link/info is really interesting. And I believe (from my perspective) the fact that my issues are so sporadic … It’s hard to get mad evough to leave! They make you mad… But then you brush it off as an argument that every couple goes through…

The one thing that really speaks volumes to me is when I told him we needed to separate last year. He pulled all his tantrums and suicide stuff. Then… When I told him … Let’s work this out… He barely blinked. Didn’t say “oh thank God”. He just said…“ok”. And then asked me if we could take our son to the park. There was no big apology… Or anything. He was cold.

All the rationalizations you bring up are the exact same ones ot of victims bring up (“it’s not as bad as it used to be” etc…), but it’s still just a typical textbook case like all the rest of them.

outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/AbusiveCycle.html

Your situation isn’t unique, trust me. Please stop making excuses for this guy and just do what you have to do.

 

[EasterJoy]

This link/info is really interesting. And I believe (from my perspective) the fact that my issues are so sporadic … It’s hard to get mad evough to leave! They make you mad… But then you brush it off as an argument that every couple goes through…

The one thing that really speaks volumes to me is when I told him we needed to separate last year. He pulled all his tantrums and suicide stuff. Then… When I told him … Let’s work this out… He barely blinked. Didn’t say “oh thank God”. He just said…“ok”. And then asked me if we could take our son to the park. There was no big apology… Or anything. He was cold.

Manipulators do understand boundaries, just not in the way the rest of humanity does. They observe the boundaries that mark the lines that serve themselves best, not the boundaries that respect others. IOW, they choose someone they can push as far as anyone they can find and they push that selected person as far as they think they can get away with. They aren’t interested in being good citizens; they are interested in staying out of jail. They aren’t interested in being good spouses; they are interested in having the advantages of a family and to escape the disadvantages of a divorce. Because let’s face it: Your husband wasn’t concerned about your son when divorce was staring him in the face. He wasn’t concerned that he had inadvertantly hurt you. He was concerned about what he was going to lose himself. As soon as that was off the table…well, what happened?

As I like to say, even the Easter Bunny will bite you if you poke it with a stick enough times. Manipulators get that or, if they don’t, they never succeed in snagging a spouse at all. A “successful” manipulator has to get it together a little in order to induce someone to marry him or her. They don’t have to have empathy–empathy gets in the way of manipulation–but they do have to broaden their perspective enough to see on what side their bread is buttered.

Again, I’ve never met this guy, but the big picture you are painting is of someone who does what he needs to do and says what he needs to say in order to get what he wants. He is “getting better”, but getting better at seeing what it takes to appease you, rather than getting better at putting other people first. As soons as that objective is clearly accomplished or clearly fails, it would seem that curtain comes down and the act is over. Is that inaccurate?

When this fellow does anything from which you can see no payoff for him, a truly selfless act or an act that puts honesty before the reputation he might hope to have if he hides the truth, then maybe give him credit for “not being that bad.” Until then, he has earned (and if he repents will appreciate that he has earned) a very much suspect and definitely probationary status.

**How doth the little crocodile
Improve his shining tail,
And pour the waters of the Nile
On every golden scale!

How cheerfully he seems to grin,
How neatly spread his claws,
And welcome little fishes in
With gently smiling jaws!**
-Lewis Carroll, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland

 

[missme22]

Boy, that was very well said. You are right. He hasn’t changed as a person he’s just learned better ways to dodge my concerns. 100% accurate.

This morning I told him I was upset he didn’t have a job. He said “I’m sorry I haven’t found anything”. I said but you HAVE found several jobs. He just stared and said “what do you mean?”. I said you’ve had 3 jobs offered… You just didn’t like them. He blew up and said “fine! I’ll call back and beg for that last job!”. I said … You made your decision already plus the guy probably already gave it to someone else. But “go ahead and try!”. He was dumbfounded. He didnt REALLY plan on me saying “ok give it a shot!”.

So now he’s being gruff and quiet. Very pouty. He said “I’m sorry you are under so much stress and all… But you knew I turned this down. I told you”. I said and I told you you should take it! He just shook his head and walked away.

 

[EasterJoy]

…So now he’s being gruff and quiet. Very pouty. He said “I’m sorry you are under so much stress and all… But you knew I turned this down. I told you”. I said and I told you you should take it! He just shook his head and walked away.

You didn’t do anything wrong, but do be careful with this fellow and how you confront him. I am concerned about what can happen when a person lacking empathy feels that his back is against a wall. If his emotional connection to you is weak or his aggressive feelings get strong, he could get very unpredictable and perhaps even dangerous. Things could go south faster than you could get yourself out of the situation and into safety.

The most important thing is to keep your home safe, particularly for your son. If anything were to happen to you, your son would be lost, too. Be prudent, and look to those with experience in this kind of situation to guide you. Keep in mind what sort of situation has brought rash behavior out of your husband in the past, and avoid that until you already in a safe place.

Besides, it is better for your husband and his future that he not do anything rash, too. It is better for everyone. He is responsible for his own behavior, but at present it would still be better to avoid things he would be reasonably likely to take as provocations. It is tempting to confront someone when you catch onto the games they’ve been using to manipulate you, but one wants you to be “dead right.” Take the dangers in this situation seriously.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This link/info is really interesting. And I believe (from my perspective) the fact that my issues are so sporadic … It’s hard to get mad evough to leave! They make you mad… But then you brush it off as an argument that every couple goes through…

The one thing that really speaks volumes to me is when I told him we needed to separate last year. He pulled all his tantrums and suicide stuff. Then… When I told him … Let’s work this out… He barely blinked. Didn’t say “oh thank God”. He just said…“ok”. And then asked me if we could take our son to the park. There was no big apology… Or anything. He was cold.

Hold onto that knowledge. Think of what a normal person would do in each of those situations. You can easily imagine, if someone you love came to you and said, “I think we should separate,” what you would do and say. “Is there anything I can do to change your mind? Can we see a counselor?” etc. You would not immediately go and tell your child, “Your Daddy doesn’t love me any more” in a blatant attempt to get the child upset and move your husband to stop his plans. That your husband IMMEDIATELY went to your son and used him without thought is chilling.

Then, when you did what he wanted you to, which is withdraw the threat of leaving him, he just as quickly switched everything off. There was no emotion or empathy in any of it, just a performance designed to keep his “supply” intact. Whereas, you or I, if a person changed his/her mind about something that devastating, would be very relieved, possibly cry, would vow to improve things, would assure them that we would try harder to be a better wife, etc.

You have a harder time telling warped from normal, since you grew up in abuse. This feels familiar to you, so you doubt yourself instead of recognizing that you are being used. Yet something inside you still hates the abuse and knows better.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Keep in touch and let us know how you are doing, missme22. :grouphug:

 

[missme22]

I admit I have moments of fear and panic. I am so scared to pull the trigger so to speak, but I need to because I lose momentum.

This morning I told my husband that I needed to be working 12 hour shifts a bit next week because of a deadline. He got angry. He began telling me that I need to begin complaining to my boss to reduce my workload. I said I can’t! I have to be appreciated at work and needed… So I don’t get pushed out. He was just flat out angry at me for working do hard without time off.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Missme22, there are red flags everywhere with your husband. I would advise you to get out of this situation. If you can’t do it for it for yourself, please try to do it for your son. He has been physically intimidating you, and you know that isn’t right. No one with a young child should have to feel unsafe at home. Home is where you’re supposed to unwind and feel most comfortable.

It’s also not your job to support him, and though I’m sure your son is cute, the modeling idea is just your husband’s way of avoiding work. It sounds like he could become violent if/when you tell him you are leaving, so please be careful. Make sure you have a safe place for you and your son to go.

 

[Musician]

To the OP:

I have read your story, it seems, on several different threads. Have you posted about this problem before…? It sounds very familiar…
Regardless of whether you have or not, YOU must be some kind of clueless to stay with this man. You keep complaining about him but you aren’t doing anything about it. What does that say about you? Why do you keep acting like his behavior is such a surprise? Evidently he’s been this way for some time, and even worse. And pushing your son…? Aren’t you supposed to protect him? What are you waiting for, some huge flashing highway sign that says “DANGER”?
Sorry to be disgruntled but I can’t stand this type of waffling around.
If I were this man’s wife, he’d be wearing an iron skillet wrapped around his head the next time he touched me or my son in an abusive way. There would be no excuse, for me, to allow that abuse without doing something about it.
What are you waiting for?

 

[missme22]

I fully admit that I have issues of codependency that I’m still in treatment for. To be honest, when you are raised around a man who is violently abusive… You begin to question what IS normal. My husband seems like a cake walk compared to my childhood, so my comparison is skewed. That’s why I end up here… Asking if something is truly THAT bad. I apologize if I am makIng someone disgruntled. I really just appreciate the Objective perspective. I’m not as fortunate as others to have such keen judgement. Professionally… I’m smart as a whip. With my husband… I struggle.

It is admittandly tough when a husband repents and promises to improve and DOES improve to a certain extent. I am just learning from people on here that it’s ok to not have catholic guilt about leaving.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

To the OP:

I have read your story, it seems, on several different threads. Have you posted about this problem before…? It sounds very familiar…
Regardless of whether you have or not, YOU must be some kind of clueless to stay with this man. You keep complaining about him but you aren’t doing anything about it. What does that say about you? Why do you keep acting like his behavior is such a surprise? Evidently he’s been this way for some time, and even worse. And pushing your son…? Aren’t you supposed to protect him? What are you waiting for, some huge flashing highway sign that says “DANGER”?
Sorry to be disgruntled but I can’t stand this type of waffling around.
If I were this man’s wife, he’d be wearing an iron skillet wrapped around his head the next time he touched me or my son in an abusive way. There would be no excuse, for me, to allow that abuse without doing something about it.
What are you waiting for?

But dear Musician…You have been the victim of this type of person before…They can keep you under their thumb in so many different ways. You truly do begin to think the problem is only you, and they are the normal and sane party. I think missme22 has a broken boundary-establisher…She doesn’t know what is acceptable in a relationship and even if she does know, it’s hard to believe that she deserves something better. I am praying that she will have the courage to start making plans to separate, but as you know, some never do get away…I am praying for her son’s sake too.