Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

[rikkk1958]

Who are the Palestines, and who are the Jews? Are they not the same people who inhabited the region sometime ago? Were there not peaceful solutions at hand that were rejected?

 

[LutheranDK]

Who are the Palestines, and who are the Jews? Are they not the same people who inhabited the region sometime ago? Were there not peaceful solutions at hand that were rejected?

1: They are not the same people, no.
(and no “Sister Amy” or MW, that does NOT mean that I believe Arabs are inferior…).
Jews and Arabs are the descendeds of Abraham according to the flesh. But since they are the descendants of Abraham differently, the Jews through the line of Isaac and the Arabs through the line of Abraham’s bastard son Ishmael, they are not the same people.

2: There WERE peaceful solutions at hand that were rejected…by the Arabs. The partition plan of 1947 was accepted by the representatives of the Zionist movement, but not by the Arabs.
In fact, the first thing the Arabs did after the proclamation of the state of Israel was to declare war to “drive the Jews back into the sea” - which remains the goal for Hamas and the like…

 

[tomarin]

1: They are not the same people, no.

Although, racially and culturally speaking, sephardic (i.e. “Spanish” = Middle Eastern) jews and Arabs are pretty close. They like the same sort of music, food, etc.

 

[dzheremi]

It strikes me that the argument that Israel is not interested in exterminating Palestinians because if they were they would have done so a long time ago (LutheranDK, post #120) is exactly the same as the argument that some Muslims here make when we talk about the horrible treatment of Christians and other non-Muslims in countries under Muslim rule. The argument goes something like this: “If Muslims are so against Christians in their countries, how come there are still Christians in (country X)?”

We don’t buy it then, so why do we make the same argument now?

 

[Parabol]

This is interesting whether she is right or wrong. I don’t know any of the details and I don’t know if the girl is Muslim. The video might be manipulated

 

[Ridgerunner]

But the government of Israel is exterminating the Palestinians, and taking their land.

That is the problem.

No it isn’t. I know Palestinians, some of whose very large tribe is in the West Bank and some in Jordan. There’s no “extermination” going on by the Israelis. Their tribal members own land and operate businesses in the West Bank (as well as in Jordan and nearly every Arab country except Syria), and there is no threat to kick them out, and never was. One of their members was in the Arab government of the West Bank until one of the terrorist gangs assassinated him. One of my Palestinian friends was nearly killed in that wedding bombing in Amman. A pillar protected him, but the head of the young lady across the table from him was blown off right before his eyes. Just pointless, vicious killing. No Israelis were involved in that. It was Arab-on-Arab all the way. Some vendetta or other. Something over money. Some radical Islamist thing. Nobody ever really knew.

 

[rikkk1958]

I think extermination is an overstatement because I doubt that it is the goal of the Israelis in its war with Palestinian Muslims. Believe me, if the Palestine is converted to Christianity, the whole thing would be different. I always want to specify by calling it Muslim Palestine because I am sure they are the people who opposes the Jews. I believe that the Christians and other people other than the muslims in Gaza blame the Hamas for the war.

If you speak of extermination, you speak of Darfur. That is a classic way of depopulation. Muslims there are trying to eliminate the black africans. Those who think they are african arabs and muslim would be left alone and monopolized the country.

 

[Sister_Amy]

No it isn’t. I know Palestinians, some of whose very large tribe is in the West Bank and some in Jordan. There’s no “extermination” going on by the Israelis. Their tribal members own land and operate businesses in the West Bank (as well as in Jordan and nearly every Arab country except Syria), and there is no threat to kick them out, and never was. One of their members was in the Arab government of the West Bank until one of the terrorist gangs assassinated him. One of my Palestinian friends was nearly killed in that wedding bombing in Amman. A pillar protected him, but the head of the young lady across the table from him was blown off right before his eyes. Just pointless, vicious killing. No Israelis were involved in that. It was Arab-on-Arab all the way. Some vendetta or other. Something over money. Some radical Islamist thing. Nobody ever really knew.

That has nothing to do with Israel, and therefore nothing to do with my comment at all.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think extermination is an overstatement because I doubt that it is the goal of the Israelis in its war with Palestinian Muslims. Believe me, if the Palestine is converted to Christianity, the whole thing would be different. I always want to specify by calling it Muslim Palestine because I am sure they are the people who opposes the Jews. I believe that the Christians and other people other than the muslims in Gaza blame the Hamas for the war.

You are incorrect. Palestinian Christians suffer as much as do Palestinian Muslims. Muslims have no particular vendetta against Jews–the state of Israel is causing Muslims, who suffer under the hand of that Jewish state, to begin hating that state.

If you look historically you’ll see that Jews were treated better in Muslim countries than they were in European Christian countries. Muslims never had pogroms, Muslims were not responsible for the Holocast.

If you speak of extermination, you speak of Darfur. That is a classic way of depopulation. Muslims there are trying to eliminate the black africans. Those who think they are african arabs and muslim would be left alone and monopolized the country.

The conflict in Darfur has been framed in such a way as to be very misleading. You’ll hear that “arabs” are fighting “black africans.” That’s silly. **They are all Muslim. They are all African. They are all black. And they all speak Arabic. **

What is happening in Darfur is an interesting case of an impoverished country being raped instead of colonized. The violence there is horrible and needs to stop. We must therefore look at why it is occurring–who is benefiting from the violence. That doesn’t remove the Muslims from blame, but in order for the violence to stop, the real reason must be acknowledged by the world at large.

 

[Sister_Amy]

1: They are not the same people, no.
(and no “Sister Amy” or MW, that does NOT mean that I believe Arabs are inferior…).
Jews and Arabs are the descendeds of Abraham according to the flesh. But since they are the descendants of Abraham differently, the Jews through the line of Isaac and the Arabs through the line of Abraham’s bastard son Ishmael, they are not the same people.

2: There WERE peaceful solutions at hand that were rejected…by the Arabs. The partition plan of 1947 was accepted by the representatives of the Zionist movement, but not by the Arabs.
In fact, the first thing the Arabs did after the proclamation of the state of Israel was to declare war to “drive the Jews back into the sea” - which remains the goal for Hamas and the like…

Even the State Department rejected that plan, the 1947 partition plan.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

…
What is happening in Darfur .

In Darfur or anywhere in the world , if u kill innocent people , nobody will say that it’s your right to do so. In Palestine , more than 350 children are dead . Israeli soldiers also preventing family members to bury the dead bodies.

Moreover , Israeli people believes they have God given rights to do these cruelties & neither in this world nor in hereafter , they will be punished. Is not this attitude very dangerous ?

 

[ferdie]

There are three Muslim opinions that have been loudly heard in this forum. Hamba2han espouses the destruction of Israel. Both you and Muslim Woman put the blame entirely on Israel. I was about to lean with some sympathy for the cause of Palestinians in this war but if the three of you represents the general attitude and views of Muslims at large I am about to think that Muslims are unable to reason the reality of this war.

In Hamba I thought I saw an honest emotional attachment to Muslims ideal of wanting to destroy Israel and in you and Muslim Woman, either an incapability of seeing the war impartially or you are just sprouting cyber propaganda. I thought it is most likely the latter. If that’s the case it’s too bad because you seem to be the only voice of reason here and you are about to lose that.

That we don’t care that children are being massacred? What on earth are you talking about? Of course we care about children, anyone for that matter, being killed. I can understand your concerns and sentiment but without ever acknowledging the cruelty that Hamas have done to their own people, I cannot anymore think that you ever understand this war.

Have you ever thought how Hamas sent their finest young men and women to die on suicide mission? I care for those Palestinian young men and women. Have you ever thought about the Israelis who were killed by Hamas mortar being fired indiscriminately into civilian areas? I care about those civilians being killed. Have you ever thought about the bystanders and the children, yes Israeli children, being killed by Hamas suicide bombers? I care for those Israeli children as I care about the Palestinian children who are killed in this war.
**
Unless and until your compassion is for people killed on both sides, as all of them are people, instead of only for Hamas and Palestinians, I don ‘t think Muslims like you can be taken seriously or as negotiating partners for peace.** Now I can understand the problem that Israel has with Muslim Hamas.

This is what radical muslims need to learn. Unlike us christians (not all), we see victims on both sides, we feel compassion on both sides, even to those who started the fight. Unless they see fault in the actions of their fellow muslims, this war will rage on for the next generations.

 

[ferdie]

BS, and if you had any knowledge of history that came from somewhere else than Hamas, you’d know it.

1: “Palestinians” did nothing at all during WW2, because the term was not used by anyone about the Arab residents of the area until after the royal caning the Arabs got in the Six Day War

2: The BRITISH allowed LIMITED immigration to what was then the Palestine-mandate under British control. But nowhere near all that came to the area to flee Europe were admitted - because of the way the Arabs acted up.

3: EVERY other nation turned Jewish refugees away? BS!
The US took a lot of Jews fleeing Europe (but not all), as did Sweden, Denmark (until the Germans came…oh, and we also, as the only country in Europe, saved the Jews from deportation!), Switzerland…

BS. The Arabs who chose to stay after the proclamation of the State of Israel were granted FULL CITIZENSHIP, with all the rights and priviledges thereof!

If you want to talk about kicking people out, let’s turn to the Arab states who, after the proclamation of the State of Israel, forced some 700.000 Jews to flee the areas they’ve inhabited for centuries. Oddly enough, these 700.000 people did not end up in some God-forsaken refugee camp, because they were integrated into Israeli society. If the Arab states had done the same with the Arabs who they had called upon to get out of the way of their armies, the Arabic refugee-problem would not exist. But they didn’t, and thereby left the Arabs holding the baby.

BS!
Please document that Israel is exterminating the Arabs. It’s just plain propaganda, and you have to think that we’re morons if you believe we’re stupid enough to fall for it.

IF Israel wanted to exterminate the Arabs

1: There would not be about a million Arabs with Israeli citizenship and full rights.
2: There would be no effort made to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
3: THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SO A LONG TIME AGO.

All in all, a two-letter abbreviation can sum up your entire post: BS!

Thank you Lutheran DK. I think their view of the world history is different from ours.

 

[dzheremi]

Palestinian Christians suffer as much as do Palestinian Muslims.

So true.

Muslims never had pogroms

This is not true. I have posted about the pogrom against the Iraqi Jews in 1941 which killed about 200 Jews. It wasn’t the first of such events in the Arab world. There was also the 1066 Granada pogrom (yes, in that paragon of Islamic tolerance and advancement, “Al-Andalus”), the Shiraz 1910 violence, etc.

Christians may not have been any better than this in many instances in the past, but to say that this somehow absolves Muslims from their own atrocities, or even worse that those events never happened, is an absolute fabrication on your part.

The conflict in Darfur has been framed in such a way as to be very misleading. You’ll hear that “arabs” are fighting “black africans.” That’s silly. **They are all Muslim. They are all African. They are all black. And they all speak Arabic. **

What is happening in Darfur is an interesting case of an impoverished country being raped instead of colonized. The violence there is horrible and needs to stop. We must therefore look at why it is occurring–who is benefiting from the violence. That doesn’t remove the Muslims from blame, but in order for the violence to stop, the real reason must be acknowledged by the world at large.

Looking into the roots of the conflict, you can see non-Arab tribes’ resistance to Arabization, which then evolved into the multi-layered conflict it is now. Arab Media Watch describes it as such. So you are right that it is not “Muslim vs. Non-Muslim”, though I’m not so sure that it then follows that it isn’t a case of “Arabic speaker vs. non-Arabic speaker”, since the imposition of the dominant culture group’s language is most definitely a means through which the resisted program of Arabization is achieved.

 

[qmarie73]

Israel, Go to work, feed and love your family and worship as your faith teaches and leave your neighbors alone.

Israel cannot simply do this because they have been attacked by the radicals in Gaza. Not to say that there are no innocent people in Gaza, or that they are all involved in the evil and sadistic Hamas, but Hamas was voted into power, which clearly shows that the majority of the “Palestinians” in Gaza support Hamas, and thus the firing of RGBs and missiles into Israel. Not only has this been going on for eight years, but (God forbid the media to say this) Hamas specifically targets Israeli civilian areas, such as schools, houses, and playgrounds. The Israeli people love peace and not agression: they are simply responding, after long periods of grace and self-control, to the daily threat to the lives and property of israeli citizens in cities like S’derot. Israel was never against a cease-fire: they were and remain against a cease-fire that is perpetually broken by Hamas.

israelselfdefense.synthasite.com/

 

[MugenOne]

Sudan consists of Arabs with Nubian roots, and non-Arab Black Africans. What happens in Darfur is Arabic Sudanese killing African Sudanese. It’s Muslim on Muslim violent and Arabic racism in action. Same thing happens when an African tried to sleep in a tent occupied by Arabs during Hajj. So much for peace or religious unity.

 

[Sister_Amy]

BS, and if you had any knowledge of history that came from somewhere else than Hamas, you’d know it.

I’m not an expert, but I have taken two classes on US Foreign Policy during the Cold War, one semester was devoted entirely to the Middle East, and I’ve written two papers on the beginnings of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on original source documents, nothing from Hamas.

1: “Palestinians” did nothing at all during WW2, because the term was not used by anyone about the Arab residents of the area until after the royal caning the Arabs got in the Six Day War

Palestinians have been living in Palestine for centuries. The Arabs living in Palestine (who we call Palestinians!) accepted the immigration of the Jews while every other nation of the world was turning them away, including the USA. Moreover, Palestine was also known as Palestine before the 1967 war, it was even known as Palestine in the Balfour Declaration which was written in 1917. Go read it. “non-Jewish communities” means Palestinian Christians and Muslims. FYI.

2: The BRITISH allowed LIMITED immigration to what was then the Palestine-mandate under British control. But nowhere near all that came to the area to flee Europe were admitted - because of the way the Arabs acted up.

Americans are “acting up” because of Hispanic immigration nowadays which amounts to a drastically smaller percentage. Just look at the statistics of immigration of Jews to Palestine, the numbers are staggering. And yes, the Arabs began to revolt after a while because there were just so many immigrants coming. Americans do the same.

3: EVERY other nation turned Jewish refugees away? BS!
The US took a lot of Jews fleeing Europe (but not all), as did Sweden, Denmark (until the Germans came…oh, and we also, as the only country in Europe, saved the Jews from deportation!), Switzerland…

A lot? How much do you think is a lot? Do you realize that there was a boat full of Jews which sailed to the United States and was turned away? Turned away from Europe, from the US, even from South America. Had to return to Germany where they were killed. :bighanky: The number of immigrants to Palestine, I will reiterate, is staggering. I’ll have to see if I can find you the numerical data in my notes somewhere.

BS. The Arabs who chose to stay after the proclamation of the State of Israel were granted FULL CITIZENSHIP, with all the rights and priviledges thereof!

Second class citizens. Homes demolished. Imprisoned.

If you want to talk about kicking people out, let’s turn to the Arab states who, after the proclamation of the State of Israel, forced some 700.000 Jews to flee the areas they’ve inhabited for centuries. Oddly enough, these 700.000 people did not end up in some God-forsaken refugee camp, because they were integrated into Israeli society. If the Arab states had done the same with the Arabs who they had called upon to get out of the way of their armies, the Arabic refugee-problem would not exist. But they didn’t, and thereby left the Arabs holding the baby.

That was the worst thing they could have done, sending their Jews away. Stupid, stupid, stupid. But that doesn’t mean that Israelis have any right whatsoever to kick out Palestinians from their homes.

BS!
Please document that Israel is exterminating the Arabs. It’s just plain propaganda, and you have to think that we’re morons if you believe we’re stupid enough to fall for it.

It’s not really. Not if you look at what Israel is actually doing to Palestinians, all their propaganda. Look at what the UN keeps saying they’re doing, but what they keep getting away with. War crimes. They want the Palestinians out of Israel altogether, which isn’t fair, not in any book.

IF Israel wanted to exterminate the Arabs

1: There would not be about a million Arabs with Israeli citizenship and full rights.

Look at the 1.5 million who are living in a cage, an open-air prison, denied access to electricity, water, food, and medicine.

2: There would be no effort made to distinguish between combatants and civilians.

There is no such effort being made. In case you didn’t realize it yet, the Israeli military can’t even distinguish between the Red Cross and “combatants.” Are they really that dense? Do they think a UN aid boat in the mediterranean are also “combatants?” They aren’t making an effort. If they were they wouldn’t be hitting the UN, the Red Cross, schools, hospitals, and over 400 women and children.

3: THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SO A LONG TIME AGO.

Nah. They need to be able to get away with it. Building that machine takes times.

All in all, a two-letter abbreviation can sum up your entire post: BS!

Just because you don’t want to believe it doesn’t make it false.

 

[Reuben_J]

In case you didn’t realize it yet, the Israeli military can’t even distinguish between the Red Cross and “combatants.” Are they really that dense? Do they think a UN aid boat in the mediterranean are also “combatants?” They aren’t making an effort. If they were they wouldn’t be hitting the UN, the Red Cross, schools, hospitals, and over 400 women and children.

In modern warfare ‘friendly fire’ do result in substantial casualties inflicted on their own troops and buildings. I thought the Israel casualties in this war were a result of friendly fire. The American forces experienced big losses due to this in the Iraqi war.

Remember the bombing of China’s embassy in Bosnia by American Air Force years back?

You’re are right they cannot ‘distinguish’ non-combatants but many times these are unintentional or just that, they are not able to distinguish them.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That has nothing to do with Israel, and therefore nothing to do with my comment at all.

It has everything to do with Israel, and with your comment in Post #119 that the Israelis are “exterminating” Arabs and driving them from the land. It’s just false.

I realize the reality of the situation may not serve the purpose of those who want to portray Israelis as monsters in order to justify killing them. But the truth is that the armed Arab gangs in Palestine are responsible for the fact that many live in misery there. Many, many Palestinians get along perfectly well with Israelis and would like to live in peace with them. And many know it’s possible, but for the gangs of criminals.

It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Fatah might cure itself and become a real government in a prosperous land. With Hamas, impossible. Do you accept the Hamas Covenant? Are you in sympathy with what it expresses? Or do you condemn it and the organization that lives by it? I, for one, would be interested to know your position regarding that.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Americans are “acting up” because of Hispanic immigration nowadays which amounts to a drastically smaller percentage. Just look at the statistics of immigration of Jews to Palestine, the numbers are staggering. And yes, the Arabs began to revolt after a while because there were just so many immigrants coming. Americans do the same.

QUOTE]

A false slander against both native-born Americans and Hispanics. Most recently arrived Hispanics live in perfect peace. My parish has doubled in the last ten years largely because of Hispanics. What is not welcome are the gangs that sometimes come with them, and which are, if anything, a greater burden on them than on native-born Americans. If Palestinians could get rid of the gangs, even with Israeli help (and many welcome it secretly) they would be far better off. Hamas, among others, has to go, and Arab society needs to be rid of the Iranian and Wahabbist mercenaries that plague the region. Then there can be peace and prosperity for both Jews and Arabs.