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Darryl1958
Guest
Which unjustified war against a non-agressor country did Israel partake in and when and how was it legitimized by the UN?
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seekerz
Guest
Sorry, I wasn’t at all clear in my post. “They” was generally directed to any and all governments that see/treat the UN as a sham. In this specific example, I was referring to the lead up to Iraq war, not to anything Israel did. The war against Lebanon turned out to be pretty pointless too, but I don’t remember Israel asking the UN to sanction it.
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Darryl1958
Guest
It clearly has nothing to do with Israel then, for Israel was specifically asked by America not to participate in the first Gulf war, even as they were being shelled.
UN peace-keeping efforts in Lebanon seemed sincere enough, and the jury is out as to whether Libya was more legitimately fought by being justified by the UN than if it had received the approval of the US Congress.
Israel was created by an act of the UN of course, which has been treated as a sham by many or not most of the nations who have been leading the UN barrage against Israel ever since.
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Darryl1958
Guest
But if having countries such as Iran and Kaddafi’s Libya leading the fight for human and women’s rights is not a sham, I am not sure what would be a sham in comparison to that.
I wonder which women would feel comfortable being protected by men who sanction the stoning of women for the adulterous ‘sin’ of being raped?
I wonder which women would feel comfortable being protected by men who sanction the stoning of women for the adulterous ‘sin’ of being raped?
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seekerz
Guest
Yes, some people still live in a sort of Old Testament era (yes, if a woman in the city did not cry out when attacked, she was considered to have consented). Sorry to burst your bubble, but we do live in a world where women in hidden (and not so hidden) corners of the globe are still being bought or sold into marriage and burned alive for their trouble; a world where the just punishment for rape is considered forcing the assailant to marry his victim. Saddest of all, many of these practices are preserved and defended by women in their own families and communities.
Unless a world organization is expected to exclude such countries, we are going to see leaders of all stripes. What would you suggest? Close the gates and let them remain three millennia behind the rest of the world?
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scipio337
Guest
Could you elaborate on this? I don’t believe I’ve heard of any Israeli official calling for a Palestinian Arab free state.
dailycaller.com/2011/09/13/palestinian-ambassador-reiterates-call-for-a-jew-free-palestinian-state/
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scipio337
Guest
But this is great news. Maybe Hamas and the PA will change their national charters!
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seekerz
Guest
Did I imply that they were?
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scipio337
Guest
I wasn’t sure, which is why I asked you to elaborate. Your response was a little cryptic.
I’m not sure if you’re blaming the Israelis for not wanting a “Jew Free” Gaza, or what your point is.
If Israelis were the ones making this determination, the world would be up in arms.
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seekerz
Guest
My point is that there is unreasonableness on both sides about who gets to return or remain in either of the two future states. Palestinian refugees from Israel living in the West Bank and Gaza, were not being allowed to return to Israel even while reconstruction of Jewish settlements in disputed areas was allowed to resume - sounds like telling another (potential) country what should or should not happen within it and who should or should not live there. (I have previously dealt with the other side of this equation).
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Darryl1958
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Burst my bubble?
Like the article, I have already fully acknowledged that world from the very beginning. IN fact, I was the one introducing this into the conversation.
Maybe the Koran would deserve at least an honorable mention here too, as it is not the Jews and their Old Testament scriptures that are the problem here in the modern world. One might be get the wrong impression with your continued associations of them(and now their texts) with all kinds of bad behavior.
A world organization that is not a sham really ought not to put the countries with the worst human rights records in positions of leadership though, and thereby allow them to set the agenda. That is the major point that the article was trying to get across, I think.
It is the dictators that are setting the agenda at the UN, concentrating on the mote in their neighbor’s eye while ignoring the log in their own. That is the whole point of the article that you seemed to have problems with. People who have read the New Testament especially ought to recognize that as being the quintessential definition of a sham.
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seekerz
Guest
The behavior I described actually refers to practices in Asia and Africa that, in my personal experience and knowledge, transcend religious lines (Islam, Hinduism…even Christianity). And unless I’m mistaken, the Old Testament (at least in part) is common to the three great world religions, so I’m really not sure how you got to make my post about the Jews.Burst my bubble?
Like the article, I have already fully acknowledged that world from the very beginning. IN fact, I was the one introducing this into the conversation.
Maybe the Koran would deserve at least an honorable mention here too, as it is not the Jews and their Old Testament scriptures that are the problem here in the modern world. One might be get the wrong impression with your continued associations of them(and now their texts) with all kinds of bad behavior.
A world organization that is not a sham really ought not to put the countries with the worst human rights records in positions of leadership though, and thereby allow them to set the agenda. That is the major point that the article was trying to get across, I think.
It is the dictators that are setting the agenda at the UN, concentrating on the mote in their neighbor’s eye while ignoring the log in their own. That is the whole point of the article that you seemed to have problems with. People who have read the New Testament especially ought to recognize that as being the quintessential definition of a sham.
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scipio337
Guest
What kind of weak moral equivalence is this? 20% of Israel’s citizens are Palestinian Arabs. Those who remain in the WB and Gaza are the decendents of those who fled (and yes, some were kicked out) in 1948.
Did George Washington let the Loyalists who fled to Canada back in the US?
What you dismiss as “unreasonableness” on the part of the PA would be called “genocide” if the shoe were on the other foot.
If we want to talk about “unreasonableness”, let’s take a look at the Arab League’s position on the Palestinian Arab refugees.
In my view, population exchanges have happened throughout history, and it’s the Arab League policy that has made this an ongoing issue for 60+ years.
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seekerz
Guest
Population exchanges? You mean like Jews from all over the world returning to the land of their forefathers? I see the demographic challenges in Palestinian right of return, truly I do. It would just seem more forthright to me to present it as such: not as some selective moral right.
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iamrefreshed
Guest
Apparently, this is more of an issue for scholars and lawyers.
Although the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights claim that the right of return to one’s own country is a human right, numerous scholars have interpreted this to mean citizens or nationals of the country, as well as applying only to the individuals who were personally displaced, not to their descendants.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return
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scipio337
Guest
Yes, that is precisely what I mean.
It is common in a post-colonial collapse. New nations form down ethnic, religious, and linguistic lines.
It happened in 1923 after the fall of the Ottoman Empire betwen the Greeks and the Turks.
The most obvious example of a similar population exchange is the formation of modern Pakistan, India, and East Pakistan (Bangledesh). 14 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs crossed borders into their newly formed majority country. Kashmir is still an issue, but not nearly as large, or contentious as Israel/Palestine.
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Darryl1958
Guest
How were you bursting my bubble?
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Darryl1958
Guest
What would the reasonable response for Israel on the question of Palestinian right of return to Israel proper? And is support for such a return consistent with support of a Israel as a Jewish state?
Also is it reasonable to expect that no Jews will ever be able to live on the West Bank under a Palestinian authority, and that they would need to be ethnically cleansed from the region first, as happened in Gaza?
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Darryl1958
Guest
One can only imagine if all the descendants of the Pilgrims demanded a right of return to the Netherlands, or the diaspora of Irish whose lives were made intolerable by British rule insisted on the right of return to Ireland.
Bottom line is that Israel alone is expected by so many countries of the UN to accept this as a moral and a legal right, and is deemed to be racist by the UN Durbans for not doing so.
It is hard not to see this as a sham.
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Javier_Sanchon
Guest
“We Palestinians and Jews do not need to learn how to live together. We just need to remember how we used to live together for centuries and centuries.” -Archbishop Elias Chacour
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