Panetta to lift ban on women in combat

[LisaA]

I am speaking for myself but as to what I know of others in the military and what motivates one to one unit or branch over another.

In general no one joins the Marine Corps merely out of “service” or even the GI Bill. They join for pride and the USMC is quite open and frank about that. They even call themselves “The Few, The Proud.”

In script they capitalize the word Marine and not soldier, sailor, or Airmen. And we routinely talk down about other branches–especially the Navy.

They join out of pride and to be one of the tough. Many of them (not all) are pure jerks too with little to no humility. Sorry, but they are.

And their are pride driven rivalries among the SF. The SEAL’s pride themselves on supposedly (as I heard one former SEAL say on TV) being the only ones that can talk down about Marines.

I showed the commercial of the Marine Corps. I think it adequately demonstrates the Corps appeals to young peoples sense of pride (though, I often don’t remember but am half way aware “pride” is one of the 7 deadly sins).

One of may favorite cadences in the Marine Corps when we jogged was:

***Bomb the town and burn the village! Throw some napalm in the square!

Do it on a Sunday morning, while the people are in prayer…

Throw some candy to the kiddies…

Watch them as they gather round.

Then I pull out my M-16 and mow the LITTLE F&%$ers down!**

That’s the Marine Corps I belonged to. And it’s the one I loved (and hated). The one that prided itself on traveling the world and killing “exotic people.”

While on CINCLANT Compund a small Navy base in Norfolk, Virgina we were not allowed to sing cadences like that or curse while running or put down the Navy as it would offend the sensibilities of many non-Marines (that had civilian women and FBI and high ranking officers of every branch on the base).

Again you presume everyone had the same reason as you for joining the military. Your attitude stuns me but as the saying goes, it takes one to know one. I really can’t say what I am thinking so I’ll just say good night.

Lisa

 

[TimeEntrance]

Speak for yourself but do not project your IMO bizarre beliefs regarding the motivation for joining the military on others. Your comments have left me stunned and the claim that you were in the Marines makes this even more shocking.

What our troops, particularly the elite troops such as SF, have in common with a priest is the desire to sacrifice self for others. The training, the demands, the hideous conditions are enough to weed out the self absorbed, all about me attitude (too bad similar training isn’t a requirement of our elected officials!). I don’t know how living in dirt, pooping in an MRE bag or not changing your socks until the skin on your feet peels off comports with an idea that this is all about bragging rights and feeding your ego.

Lisa

Actually, it came to my mind that you seem to think your opinions and ability know why women want to join the infantry (or said another way… why male X and female Y want to join A, B, or C) is somehow better and more righteous than mine.

Men in the SF join for the same reasons you project on females that wish to enter the infantry or the more prized SF.

And like the cadence I provided in the Marine Corps reveals… few to none are angels. But they have worldly ambitions. Not bad in and of itself lest we want to condemn every atheist scientist or Jesuit scientist.

Medals and ribbons are highly prized too. As Napoleon knew (how to psychologically inspire men). Medals and ribbons aren’t really needed for those only and simply motivated out of selfless sacrifice.

Actually, if it were up to me, I would probably get rid of all medals and ribbons in the U.S. Marine Corps (even given their psychological power to inspire men to perform). It was a Army veteran that persuaded me that no medals would create less a gap/divide between those with medals and those without medals in the military. But the U.S. military is still too inspired by aristocratic Europe for that probably (contra the former elite Marine Raiders inspired from communist equality between men–leader and followers).

 

[TimeEntrance]

Again you presume everyone had the same reason as you for joining the military. Your attitude stuns me but as the saying goes, it takes one to know one. I really can’t say what I am thinking so I’ll just say good night.

Lisa

Just as your assumption but mine are given with supporting evidence and experience in one branch of the military (and having known others).

But it is typical of you to go to a personal attack. You really have no other rebuttal other than to appeal to a fictitious characterization of the U.S. military.

And as I pointed out pride is supposedly one of the 7 deadly sins. I doubt you will counter that.

It is good to remember even Satan quotes scriptures and had a high view of himself. He probably might be described as the most religious of God’s creation while being devoted to the idea of honor. Not unlike a Nazi soldier in the German Army. I’m certain they loved Germany no less than U.S. military men and women love their country.

I was in fact regarded by career Marines as “a good Marine” while I was in. My two mentors wanted me to reenlist. And that “good Marine” label says more about how your “most Marines” viewed me than you.

At the end of the day the military is a profession like any other with a few exceptions–one being it is not very capitalist but more socialist or communist in that 2 or 3 military persons will be employed on a task a profit driven corporation might only employ 1 person to do.

But I would like to see you provide evidence the U.S. Marine Corps puts out commercials to appeal to young, selfless people and projects itself as an organization simply equal to the other branches of the U.S. military.

But you strike me as a Catholic that will complain that no one wants to sacrifice today and therefore so few female Catholics become nuns. And few Catholic men become priests. I’m just more honest (therefore less a liar to myself and others) about why I became a Marine and not a Jesuit. And I don’t need to point fingers at others. I’ll leave that for The Accuser (Satan).
(only later into my adulthood did I learn more about the Jesuit history and it seems to me to be one of “The World’s Finest Organization” a title the U.S. Marine Corps holds for itself. Reading about Jesuit missionaries into Oregon Country–at least one Jesuit by himself–in what is today part of the United States, taught me much more about selfless sacrifice) *

And don’t get me started on the degree of extra-marital affairs that go on in base housing by both married women (civilians) and married men (military men). It’s like a brothel.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Note the use by OCG of the word MURDER, not kill, MURDER which has a different meaning. Yes the person is just as dead but the intent makes the act a different moral question. Further we are fighting an enemy that KNOWS of our reluctance to allow civilians to become collateral damage—a trait they DO NOT SHARE. Thus they will deliberately hide among women and children so as to deter strikes.

I don’t know who first said “War is hell” but he was right. There will always be collateral damage and civilians caught in crossfire. Pretending you can fight a war and not kill anyone is sort of liviing in dreamland.

Lisa

As long as we’re busy in dreamland, can you explain what the good guys would have to do to lose the unquestioned, blind-faith moral high ground?

We’ve got them launching invasions, killing babies, children and teens, bombing cities, torturing captives themselves and exporting their enemies to foreign countries to outsource the torture.

What else would they need to do?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

That’s just an overreaction.

Ambition to be the best (ego) drives a lot of successful men (and women).

If ambition (here assuming you mean the ambition to be the best you can be) is what you meant by the portion of your comment I objected to than-
-it is too common of a characteristic among soldiers to use to justify your broad generalization concerning what motivates the “vast majority” of a subset of all soldiers to join elite units in the military (Rangers, SEALS, Force Recon, SF, etc). Every successful soldier, male and female, I came across in my career was ambitious (as defined above) and most of them didn’t desire to join the elite units.

As for an overreaction, you state you have no training in psychology, then use psychological terminology without demonstrating you understand the terminology.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

As long as we’re busy in dreamland, can you explain what the good guys would have to do to lose the unquestioned, blind-faith moral high ground?

We’ve got them launching invasions, killing babies, children and teens, bombing cities, torturing captives themselves and exporting their enemies to foreign countries to outsource the torture.

What else would they need to do?

1. See the teachings of the Church concerning warfare for “can you explain what the good guys would have to do to lose the unquestioned, blind-faith moral high ground?” If the good guys are doing something outside of what the Church teaches is allowed than they’ve lost the “moral high ground.”
2. Who’s claiming the US and its allies are running around with white cowboy hats on (i.e. have the “moral high ground”)?
3. None of your above is a response to the fact that murder and kill have specific definitions in both the current laws of war and Catholic morality; and that your claim that we are murdering children with drone strikes is incorrect.

 

[Wolseley]

Good luck winning a war without boots on the ground.

It can be done…but it’s kind of extreme.

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images7/nuclear_bombs/nuclear_weapons_testing.jpe

 

[LisaA]

As long as we’re busy in dreamland, can you explain what the good guys would have to do to lose the unquestioned, blind-faith moral high ground?

We’ve got them launching invasions, killing babies, children and teens, bombing cities, torturing captives themselves and exporting their enemies to foreign countries to outsource the torture.

What else would they need to do?

You are full of presumptions about other people, full of specious claims that have little bearing in fact.

IOW credibility is so lacking in your statement there is really no answer. Enjoy dreamland.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Just as your assumption but mine are given with supporting evidence and experience in one branch of the military (and having known others).

But it is typical of you to go to a personal attack. You really have no other rebuttal other than to appeal to a fictitious characterization of the U.S. military.

And as I pointed out pride is supposedly one of the 7 deadly sins. I doubt you will counter that.

It is good to remember even Satan quotes scriptures and had a high view of himself. He probably might be described as the most religious of God’s creation while being devoted to the idea of honor. Not unlike a Nazi soldier in the German Army. I’m certain they loved Germany no less than U.S. military men and women love their country.

I was in fact regarded by career Marines as “a good Marine” while I was in. My two mentors wanted me to reenlist. And that “good Marine” label says more about how your “most Marines” viewed me than you.

At the end of the day the military is a profession like any other with a few exceptions–one being it is not very capitalist but more socialist or communist in that 2 or 3 military persons will be employed on a task a profit driven corporation might only employ 1 person to do.

But I would like to see you provide evidence the U.S. Marine Corps puts out commercials to appeal to young, selfless people and projects itself as an organization simply equal to the other branches of the U.S. military.

But you strike me as a Catholic that will complain that no one wants to sacrifice today and therefore so few female Catholics become nuns. And few Catholic men become priests. I’m just more honest (therefore less a liar to myself and others) about why I became a Marine and not a Jesuit. And I don’t need to point fingers at others. I’ll leave that for The Accuser (Satan).
(only later into my adulthood did I learn more about the Jesuit history and it seems to me to be one of “The World’s Finest Organization” a title the U.S. Marine Corps holds for itself. Reading about Jesuit missionaries into Oregon Country–at least one Jesuit by himself–in what is today part of the United States, taught me much more about selfless sacrifice) *

And don’t get me started on the degree of extra-marital affairs that go on in base housing by both married women (civilians) and married men (military men). It’s like a brothel.

Again, you have made vast presumptions about what I think, lacking any evidence. I do not believe you are correct in your assumptions regarding the reasons that individuals join the military or strive to enter one of the elite units. You have only your opinion, your personal reasons and grand statements based on those. Oddly you criticize “pride” but seem to think your opinions are to be accepted without question.

As to “the kind of Catholic I am” now there is a really big jump. I don’t recall complaining that no one wants to be a Religious anymore. Have no idea where that arose.

Suffice to say you can talk and talk but I simply do not find your statements or your opinions compelling evidence. Again we are all the world’s greatest experts on our own opinions. That doesn’t mean we are right in every case.

Lisa

 

[TimeEntrance]

If ambition (here assuming you mean the ambition to be the best you can be) is what you meant by the portion of your comment I objected to than-
-it is too common of a characteristic among soldiers to use to justify your broad generalization concerning what motivates the “vast majority” of a subset of all soldiers to join elite units in the military (Rangers, SEALS, Force Recon, SF, etc). Every successful soldier, male and female, I came across in my career was ambitious (as defined above) and most of them didn’t desire to join the elite units.

As for an overreaction, you state you have no training in psychology, then use psychological terminology without demonstrating you understand the terminology.

As I said… some that are very capitalist have the saying, “Greed is good.”

I understand by that what they mean. Whether or not you feel comfortable by the use of the word “greed” as what motivates successful business people in the U.S. and around the world is neither here nor there. The motivation to make more money than you need to live drives a lot of ambitious and successful people. Dare I say it drives a lot of former SF members that rotate into the civilian world? All of which is quite different than becoming a Jesuit medical doctor.

And no matter the way you slice it the vast majority of those that join SF units are motivated by certain rewards and those rewards are not selflessness.

Even military people that don’t join SF are motivated by rewards and punishments. That’s why the each branch spends so much money advertising to young people and that’s why some branches market themselves as a good way to get money for college.

I get school emails from some recruiter for the Navy listing all the benefits of joining the Navy as a STEM student accepted into medical or dental school. The benefits are outstanding. That includes the pay.

But a word on sacrifice: many people do it. One Marine I served with was a member of the Church of Satan. He sacrificed his time by being aboard ship. But NFL players sacrifice their bodies, brains, and health all the time on the field. Vince Lombardi sacrificed a lot to create a champion football team and to become a champion coach. He was not the best father and husband he could have been. His wife eventually became an alcoholic rarely seeing her husband and sharing him with his mistress (as said in the doc.) football. And many successful business people make sacrifices.

But I don’t regard all sacrifices simply as being motivated from selflessness.

Part of my opinion of SF in particular, comes from a time after 9-11, lurking–and then eventually posting–on a board hosting some of the most respected men in the SF community. But the internet tends to bring out the worse in people. It seems to me people will speak a lot of their true feelings online what they wont say in face-to-face interactions.

So many of them used to speak so badly about the vast majority of enlisted men and veterans that even one of their own (SF) berated members of the board for holding their fellow veterans in utter disdain. Quite a few of them seem to regret that the enlisted ranks aren’t made up predominately of college graduates too. It also seemed to me that most of them were irreligious. Frankly, I think one would find more humility and self sacrifice out of Al Qaida members. From some of the comments I remember reading I got the feeling quite a number of those career SF members would massacre and enslave Americans in the millions (particularly welfare mothers and males they regard as “losers”) including (and probably high on their list) the majority of military veterans if they had their way.

At any rate… I didn’t find much difference in them and their perception of themselves and glory in their own minds and abilities than the depiction of Satan with respects to his pride.

But you are free to your opinion.

For the record I know military service often comes with large sacrifice. That’s why I have told my nephew not to join the Marine Corps or military. Impressed with his uncle–and probably moved by the fact I was probably the only adult male that used to speak highly of him and have faith in him–he expressed at an early age that he wanted to join the Marine Corps. As far as I’m concerned all that stops here with me. And no child of mine–hopefully–will enter the military.

If I could do it all over again, and I did join the military, it would probably be the French Foreign Legion. For a number of reasons. Their lore and loyalty among each other appeals to me. It probably would have disconnected me further from Milwaukee which would have been a good thing.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

That’s a joke. Very few women could pass current infantry training standards.

Then let that “few” be the only ones allowed in combat. That’s my take on this.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Again, you have made vast presumptions about what I think, lacking any evidence.

I went by your statements, Lisa. You berated more than once in this thread the motives of the women that want to enter the infantry in the U.S.

Are you denying you subscribed certain motives (a lack of selflessness, but personal dreams and ambitions) to those women?

I do not believe you are correct in your assumptions regarding the reasons that individuals join the military or strive to enter one of the elite units.

So, lets get this straight. A woman wants to join the SF or Marine Infantry and she is motivated by personal ambition and what she perceives as rewards, but if a man does it’s only out of selfless sacrifice?

You have only your opinion, your personal reasons and grand statements based on those.

I have my opinion based off of experience and close relationships with Marines. Some of whom were like brothers to me.

But I don’t regard ambition and motives for rewards as necessarily a bad thing. A certain level of pride seems good insofar as it seems a motivator that pushes people to excel and compete.

Oddly you criticize “pride” but seem to think your opinions are to be accepted without question.

No, you seem to think your opinion of me must carry some All-American brand of opinion I need care about. I’m sure it irks you I’m a black male that made it through the Marine Corps and worked his way into university (having to go through community college and taking non-college level remedial math classes) by graduating with honors from community college rather than getting in by Affirmative Action.

And by the way… President Obama rocks.

Maybe I’ve been wrong and women should be allowed into the infantry ranks.

As to “the kind of Catholic I am” now there is a really big jump. I don’t recall complaining that no one wants to be a Religious anymore. Have no idea where that arose.

I’m just hazarding a guess you’re not a nun even though you seem to think you can berate women desiring to join the ranks of infantry and SF as having no self sacrifice in them.

You’re not a nun and I’m not a priest and there is a reason we took a road not committing ourselves to celibacy and a selfless following of Christ down that road.

Suffice to say you can talk and talk but I simply do not find your statements or your opinions compelling evidence. Again we are all the world’s greatest experts on our own opinions. That doesn’t mean we are right in every case.

Lisa

I’m aware of your view of me. I’m aware of your view of Obama. And I can hazard a guess a number of your views on a number of things. I’m well aware of your “America” the “friendly.”

Suffice to say you can talk and talk but I simply do not find your statements or opinions compelling evidence.

I also believe no more in your “America” than I do in Satan.

As-salam alaykum

 

[colmywaykurtz]

I do not believe you are correct in your assumptions regarding the reasons that individuals join the military or strive to enter one of the elite units. Lisa

I’ve heard viewpoints similar to that of TimeEntrance before, coming from ex-military, and some of the ones that are ex-Special Forces are among the most perceptive and honest people I’ve known. Not that that necessarily makes HIM one to belong in that group, but I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt unless and until I know better.

I always try to listen to people who have seen that portion of society from the inside, and who seem to perceive it with honesty and clarity.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

So many of them used to speak so badly about the vast majority of enlisted men and veterans that even one of their own (SF) berated members of the board for holding their fellow veterans in utter disdain. Quite a few of them seem to regret that the enlisted ranks aren’t made up predominately of college graduates too. It also seemed to me that most of them were irreligious. Frankly, I think one would find more humility and self sacrifice out of Al Qaida members. From some of the comments I remember reading I got the feeling quite a number of those career SF members would massacre and enslave Americans in the millions (particularly welfare mothers and males they regard as “losers”) including (and probably high on their list) the majority of military veterans if they had their way

If you are using “SF” for U.S. Army Special Forces, no. You are incorrect, and probably shouldn’t base your opinions about a group solely on what people claiming to be members of that group post on the Internet.

In my experience, most members of SF are religious, and probably have a higher level of attending church than the population as a whole. The SF selection process culls out those with xenophobia and wannabe Rambos. The need for cultural, negotiation, and language skills within SF results in a cadre that generally has a greater understanding and respect for other cultures than, again, most of the American population. The rest of your perceptions are similarly false (I’m trying to be charitable, here.) Your idea that “quite a number of those career SF members would massacre and enslave Americans in the millions (particularly welfare mothers and males they regard as “losers”) including (and probably high on their list) the majority of military veterans if they had their way” is one of the most fallacious and insulting things I’ve read about SF.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, perhaps, but it is incumbent on the speaker that it be an informed opinion. You are a very young man who was unable to make it through basic training in the Marines. Based on that very limited experience, you really don’t know enough to cast aspersions on members of the SF (which we Catholics consider the sin of calumny, by the way) based on what you read on the Internet, and if you are an honest.
person, you should apologize to those you have defamed as a group and individually. I can tell you that I, for one, have never wanted to massacre or enslave anyone.

You may be interested in reading about a apostolate of devout Catholic SF soldiers:

catholicsleadtheway.com/about.html

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Frankly, I think one would find more humility and self sacrifice out of Al Qaida members. From some of the comments I remember reading I got the feeling quite a number of those career SF members would massacre and enslave Americans in the millions (particularly welfare mothers and males they regard as “losers”) including (and probably high on their list) the majority of military veterans if they had their way.

You know what, never mind. The above disinterests me from having any further discussion with you. Good day.

 

[LisaA]

I went by your statements, Lisa. You berated more than once in this thread the motives of the women that want to enter the infantry in the U.S.

Are you denying you subscribed certain motives (a lack of selflessness, but personal dreams and ambitions) to those women?

So, lets get this straight. A woman wants to join the SF or Marine Infantry and she is motivated by personal ambition and what she perceives as rewards, but if a man does it’s only out of selfless sacrifice?

I have my opinion based off of experience and close relationships with Marines. Some of whom were like brothers to me.

But I don’t regard ambition and motives for rewards as necessarily a bad thing. A certain level of pride seems good insofar as it seems a motivator that pushes people to excel and compete.

No, you seem to think your opinion of me must carry some All-American brand of opinion I need care about. I’m sure it irks you I’m a black male that made it through the Marine Corps and worked his way into university (having to go through community college and taking non-college level remedial math classes) by graduating with honors from community college rather than getting in by Affirmative Action.

And by the way… President Obama rocks.

Maybe I’ve been wrong and women should be allowed into the infantry ranks.

I’m just hazarding a guess you’re not a nun even though you seem to think you can berate women desiring to join the ranks of infantry and SF as having no self sacrifice in them.

You’re not a nun and I’m not a priest and there is a reason we took a road not committing ourselves to celibacy and a selfless following of Christ down that road.

I’m aware of your view of me. I’m aware of your view of Obama. And I can hazard a guess a number of your views on a number of things. I’m well aware of your “America” the “friendly.”

Suffice to say you can talk and talk but I simply do not find your statements or opinions compelling evidence.

I also believe no more in your “America” than I do in Satan.

If you don’t believe in Satan/Evil One/Devil then I do wonder at your other beliefs. I think there is sufficient evidence of its presence to convince even the most skeptical.

At any rate the references regarding motiviations of women wanting to be in combat (note I did NOT limit this to the elite units such as SEALs you brought this up) but simply their desire to serve in the infantry as being born of ambition and a desire to rise in the ranks. I said this because it was reported as THE reason for even considering this change. Not one person here, on the news, in the Pentagon has provided a potential benefit for the military to push this dramatic change of policy. It seemed to be totally feelings based and and a result of certain divesity programs in the military rather than out of need. In a time when huge cuts are being proposed, is this truly a priority? Only in some utopian university think tank’s dreams…

For troops it’s Mission, Men, and Me in that order, or at least the troops I’ve been in contact with and heard speak regarding this issue. There were a number of high ranking females who said that while they may have had some hope of succeeding in meeting the standards for infantry but they felt that it would be counterproductive to the mission, their brothers in arms and those they are charged with defending. They expressed the kind of unselfishness I associate with our service members.

I asked repeatedly if anyone had heard a single reason to allow women in combat positoins and no one responded with anything but “they want to!”

Some claim they have the right to try out for these positions but from where does that right arise? It is not a natural right, something we have by virture of being human beings. There are jobs, tasks, positions that not everyone qualifies for by virtue of their skills or strength or other characteristics. I dont’ have the right to play NBA basketball and I sure don’t have the talent. But no one questions this, a sport, big boys playing big games for big money…nothing of eternal value. Yet the same people are screaming that women have the right to compromise the mission, endanger their fellow troops and reduce the effectiveness of the military…an area where it IS life and death not a game.

So that is the reason I concluded that this was not something the military needs or will benefit the military, it appears based on every bit of evidence I’ve seen to be a bit of social engineering created not by need but by ideology.

Interesting about your background. For some reason I thought you were a female. Lisa

 

[sabrefan]

That’s a joke. Very few women could pass current infantry training standards.

Very true… They will have to lower the standards… no ifs, ands or buts about it. Standards were lowered in all other related fields also.

The time will come when we will be fighting a army like N. Korea, China or Russia. How many of you with daughters think they could handle themselves in hand-to-hand combat with the mentioned foes. Yes… hand-to-hand is a real possibility. Ask any grunt!

 

[yukonbrad]

Very true… They will have to lower the standards… no ifs, ands or buts about it. Standards were lowered in all other related fields also.

The time will come when we will be fighting a army like N. Korea, China or Russia. How many of you with daughters think they could handle themselves in hand-to-hand combat with the mentioned foes. Yes… hand-to-hand is a real possibility. Ask any grunt!

Lower standards? When I was in the service the women had the exact same training we did, even though they were not allowed in combat! I find it interesting that most on here who are opposed have not served, to be quite honest there were many women I knew in the service who would have been quite capable in a combat MOS.

 

[october_baby]

Lower standards? When I was in the service the women had the exact same training we did, even though they were not allowed in combat! I find it interesting that most on here who are opposed have not served, to be quite honest there were many women I knew in the service who would have been quite capable in a combat MOS.

Maybe in the CANADIEN army, but when I served in the US army,(86-89) women had LOWER standards then men.

 

[yukonbrad]

Maybe in the CANADIEN army, but when I served in the US army,(86-89) women had LOWER standards then men.

One it is spelled CANADIAN and two I served in the US Army Rangers 1986 to 1995.