Papal candidates - Short List?

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Vouthon;10363781]Blessed Pope Pius IX. His pontificate lasted for nearly 32 years.
Thank you Vouthon. That was indeed a most interesting period in Papal and Vatican history,
i.e. “The prisoner in (of) the Vatican”. Some say that is what will happen to Pope Benedict XVI - any truth in that?

Protector
 
Hi BroomWagon, that may have something to do with the historic enmity between the English and the French.

Which ones, i.e “…roots and heritage(s)”

There are (apparently) quite a few “Orthodox roots and heritage(s)” of long standing, even Jewish and muslim. Some have even alluded to “The Lost Tribes of Israel” although I cannot identify the original source.

Protector
The Ark of the Covenant is reputedly in Ethiopia. So yes, the Ethiopians have a long Christian lineage, some would say it is one of the few countries that is found in the Bible. Wasn’t the Eunuch who travelled with Paul in the book of Acts? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_eunuch

Yes, in Ethiopia proper there are Muslims and in the early '80s, a bunch of Ethiopian Jews went to Israel… but I would say the mainstream religion of that country would be Orthodox and has been in history.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church claims to possess the Ark of the Covenant, or Tabot, in Axum, not far from the border with Eritrea. The object is currently kept under guard in a treasury near the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion and is used occasionally in ritual processions.[22] Replicas of the Axum tabot are kept in every Ethiopian church, each with its own dedication to a particular saint, the most popular of these include Mary, George and Michael.[23]
The Kebra Nagast, composed to legitimise the new dynasty ruling Ethiopia following its establishment in 1270, narrates how the real Ark of the Covenant was brought to Ethiopia by Menelik I with divine assistance, while a forgery was left in the Temple in Jerusalem. Although the Kebra Nagast is the best-known account of this belief, the belief predates the document. Abu Salih the Armenian, writing in the last quarter of the twelfth century, makes one early reference to this belief that they possessed the Ark. “The Abyssinians possess also the Ark of the Covenant”, he wrote, and, after a description of the object, describes how the liturgy is celebrated upon the Ark four times a year, “on the feast of the great nativity, on the feast of the glorious Baptism, on the feast of the holy Resurrection, and on the feast of the illuminating Cross.”[24]
On 25 June 2009, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia, Abune Paulos, said he would announce to the world the next day the unveiling of the Ark of the Covenant, which he said had been kept safe and secure in a church in Axum, Ethiopia.[25] The following day, on 26 June 2009, the patriarch announced that he would not unveil the Ark after all, but that instead he could attest to its current status.[26]
This is very famous and it seems to always be under guard.

And, one would have to really check into history, I believe Ethiopia is somewhat the same thing as Abyssinia, the name in fact of a poster here. Abyssinia may have been a larger Kingdom, again, something to read up on.

Below, St. Paul riding with the Ethiopian Eunuch per the book of Acts.

We hear Christianity is persecuted, in Egypt, in Nigeria, the Middle East and this is so… But Praise God, I believe they say Christianity keeps growing rather well… and at a cost to those who spread it.
In English, and generally outside Ethiopia, the country was also once historically known as Abyssinia, derived from Habesh, an early Arabic form of the Ethiosemitic name “Ḥabaśāt” (unvocalized “ḤBŚT”). The modern form Habesha is the native name for the country’s inhabitants (while the country has been called “Ityopp’ya”). In a few languages, Ethiopia is still referred to by names cognate with “Abyssinia”, e.g., modern Arabic Al-Ḥabashah.
 
BroomWagon;10364843] The Ark of the Covenant is reputedly in Ethiopia. This is very famous and it seems to always be under guard.
Thanks for all of the information in your post BroomWagon. However, the statement above would seem to be at variance with the verse from Revelation:
***“And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.” ***Revelation 11:19 (Douay-Rheims Holy Bible)
Unless we are talking about two Arks of the Covenant, i.e. the original one in Heaven and the copy that Moses was instructed to make in the Wilderness. But we digress - this has nothing to do with Papal candidates - Short list.

Protector
 
Thanks for all of the information in your post BroomWagon. However, the statement above would seem to be at variance with the verse from Revelation:

Unless we are talking about two Arks of the Covenant, i.e. the original one in Heaven and the copy that Moses was instructed to make in the Wilderness. But we digress - this has nothing to do with Papal candidates - Short list.

Protector
You quote Revelations. Not positive about the effect here and Ark of the Testament per your quote.
 
Wasn’t the Eunuch who travelled with Paul in the book of Acts? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_eunuch
Uh, that was Philip, not Paul.
Yes, in Ethiopia proper there are Muslims and in the early '80s, a bunch of Ethiopian Jews went to Israel… but I would say the mainstream religion of that country would be Orthodox and has been in history.
Not exactly Orthodox. The are Monophysites, a Christology that was declared heretical in 451 A.D.
And, one would have to really check into history, I believe Ethiopia is somewhat the same thing as Abyssinia, the name in fact of a poster here. Abyssinia may have been a larger Kingdom, again, something to read up on.
For a lot of its history Abyssinia included Ethiopia and Yemen.
Below, St. Paul riding with the Ethiopian Eunuch per the book of Acts.
Philip, Philip.
 
Uh, that was Philip, not Paul.

Not exactly Orthodox. The are Monophysites, a Christology that was declared heretical in 451 A.D.

For a lot of its history Abyssinia included Ethiopia and Yemen.

Philip, Philip.
Thanks, just back to this other point, have to post this here as well, per Vatican I:
  1. The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church believes and acknowledges that there is one true and living God, creator and lord of heaven and earth, almighty, eternal, immeasurable, incomprehensible, infinite in will, understanding and every perfection.
  1. Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.
  • Chapter 1
    On God the creator of all things
“….Supremely Happy in Himself”, this sounds like an Emotion of a Divine Being.

I wonder if Vouthon thinks the concept of “Divine Emotions” is still an Oxymoron?

Had to revisit this topic one last time with people being accused of disagreeing with the Church Fathers and other things.
 
As far as papabili are concerned, I’m rooting for either Cardinal Tagle or Patriarch Shevchuk. 🙂
 
Thanks, just back to this other point, have to post this here as well, per Vatican I:

“….Supremely Happy in Himself”, this sounds like an Emotion of a Divine Being.

I wonder if Vouthon thinks the concept of “Divine Emotions” is still an Oxymoron?
Such documents are written in Latin, yes? I would be curious what Latin word is being translated as ‘happy.’
 
As far as papabili are concerned, I’m rooting for either Cardinal Tagle or Patriarch Shevchuk. 🙂
Tagle would be an interesting choice but an unlikely one given his ties to the Bologna School.

He might be willing to take the name Pope John, however. 😉
 
Tagle would be an interesting choice but an unlikely one given his ties to the Bologna School.

He might be willing to take the name Pope John, however. 😉
Tagle is in my opinion, the most charismatic and interesting person in the entire college. I was literally over the moon when he was elevated to the cardinalate at the surprise consistory late last year, think it was Novemeber or such. He had been on my radar for a long time beforehand as a shining light of hope for the church in Asia.

He has a very likeable, endearing yet powerful personality. He’s media savvy and then some. He did a speech at one of the Eucharistic Congresses that moved the audience to tears. He also is reputed to have a striking humility, there are various stories about him riding a bicycle to mass.

I don’t think that the association with the Bologna school would necessarily stand against him. The chapter in volume 4 that he wrote did not, according to Vatican sources, espouse the view that Vatican II was a break in continuity. It was praised in some quarters for its defence of Pope Paul VI’s conduct at critical moments in the council, steadying it through so too speak to its conclusion. Tagle even used Benedict - Ratzinger back then - as one of his sources.

Tagle has the full support, according to John Allen, of the very papabile Cardinal Marc Ouellet of Canada. Ouellet is a pastoral conservative with many affinities in theology to Pope Benedict and is Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops. That is an indispensable ally for Tagle, since Ouellet is one of the primary contenders for the papacy and has immense “clout” at the Vatican - he is a protege of Benedict and a close advisor.

Tagle was likewise made a cardinal by Benedict XVI, which will not be forgotten either.

The only problem with his papabili status might be the fact that he was only made a cardinal a few months ago. He is isn’t familiar with the ways of the curia yet and his youth - at 55 the second youngest cardinal - might also be a factor. The fact that Benedict has resigned due to old age might help him considerably, however most analysts still seem to think that 55 would be too young. He would be younger even than Pope John Paul II who was 58 when elected.

It depends whether they want another long, possibly 25 or more, year pontificate. The possibility of resignation has now been put in place by Benedict but it would still be a radical decision to go with Tagle - charismatic, charming, very young in papal terms, from the Third World…It would be a radical choice for the conclave.

He also has some very, very interesting ideas that galvanised the bishops at the recent Bishops Conference in the Vatican. They were gripped as he outlined his ideas for a “humbler, quieter church” that is not afraid to admit its mistakes, sympathises more with peoples problems and doesn’t claim to have all the answers but rather “listens”. He was one of the strongest people in the hierarchy to speak out about the child abuse scandal. That shows guts too, real guts.

He said this too an interviewer after the Conference:
“The Church of Asia is often a minority Church, like John the Baptist crying in the wilderness……even in the Philippines, if the Church is a majority, I realise that the sufferings of people and the difficult questions they ask are an invitation to be first in solidarity with them, not to pretend we have all the solutions….they can resonate and see the concrete face of God in a Church that can be silent with them, as confused as they are….it becomes a home for them……
I believe the Church should contribute in the public square but we in Asia are very particular about the mode……so you my be saying the right things but people will not listen if the manner by which you communicate reminds them of a triumphalistic, know-it-all institution……I know that in some parts of Asia the relative silence, calmness of the Church is interpreted as timidity, but I say no – it makes the Church more credible….”
Here is the video of him receiving the red hat, he was very emotional:

youtube.com/watch?v=t97OubxgdPs
 
There seems to be many good choices for the next Pope, but my choice would be Card. Malcolm Ranjith.
 
He also has some very, very interesting ideas that galvanised the bishops at the recent Bishops Conference in the Vatican. They were gripped as he outlined his ideas for a “humbler, quieter church” that is not afraid to admit its mistakes, sympathises more with peoples problems and doesn’t claim to have all the answers but rather “listens” He was one of the strongest people in the hierarchy to speak out about the child abuse scandal. That shows guts too, real guts.
"…but rather “listens”.

Rather troubling that. Call to Action which espouses women ordination, same sex marriage etc are embedded in some of our Dioceses here as a “Listening Group”.
 
"…but rather “listens”.

Rather troubling that. Call to Action which espouses women ordination, same sex marriage etc are embedded in some of our Dioceses here as a “Listening Group”.
I can asure you that is not what Cardinal Tagle means at all. He is very conservative theologically in terms of female ordination, sam sex marriage, abortion and the like.
 
"…but rather “listens”.

Rather troubling that. Call to Action which espouses women ordination, same sex marriage etc are embedded in some of our Dioceses here as a “Listening Group”.
I sympathise with the situation in your country. However, I have to point out here that the problems you have with groups like Call to Action are not shared by churches in Asia, so I highly doubt that Cardinal Tagle would be referring to supporting them. It would be most unlike him to do that, give his track record for orthodox theology.

It is important to remember that Cardinal Tagle was one of the foremost opponents of the Reproductive “Health” Bill that was recently passed in the Philippines. The Bill mandates the funding and distribution of contraception and abortifacients, which most lukewarm Catholics would close one eye to, but Cardinal Tagle risked everything - including the scorn of much of America’s media - and held his ground against it. Surely that is significant?

Anyway, I’m not one to believe that the Church as a whole needs to “listen more”. Certainly some bishops do, but not all dioceses have the same problems of communication. Besides, I believe it is already the case that our Church is very much in tune with the pastoral needs of the people. I personally feel that what we really need is more catechesis of the faithful to better understand the truth that the Church teaches, but the good Cardinal certainly has his points too. 🙂
 
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Anyway, I’m not one to believe that the Church as a whole needs to “listen more”. Certainly some bishops do, but not all dioceses have the same problems of communication. Besides, I believe it is already the case that our Church is very much in tune with the pastoral needs of the people. I personally feel that what we really need is more catechesis of the faithful to better understand the truth that the Church teaches, but the good Cardinal certainly has his points too. 🙂
Agree completely! I recall the group of renegade Religious Sisters who kept saying there needs to be more listening from the Church hierarchy. What they really mean is that will not be satisfied they are being listened to until the Church comes around to their viewpoint. I think too often the request for listening is more a hope that enough pestering and badgering and wearing down will make the Church more progressive.

Ditto with the comment on a better understanding of what the Church teaches. Oddly as a convert I find I have more understanding than many Cradle Catholics who admit they were only half listening during their regligious education classes and forgot most of what they did hear. Honestly have learned a lot from CAF posters, particularly on life issues. Also with my own reading and research. I don’t think just sitting in the pews and hoping the homilies are enough to gain a great understanding of the Church is a good plan…but it does seem to be used by a lot of our parish.

Lisa
 
I think an interesting point worth considering is that the timing of this conclave might permit a grander installation/coronation ceremony than we saw with Benedict XVI. Traditional time from election to installation is a week or so, correct? But with the timing of the Conclave, it seems that “a week or so” after the election would put us into Holy Week.

Perhaps, with an extra week or two of planning itme, we might see the ability to make arrangements for a coronation?
 
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