Papal Envoy Talks Challenge of Medjugorje, Praises Pilgrims’ Expressions of Faith

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zab said:
It was not I who posted that the “apparitions” were declared “inauthentic”. However, the Vatican has not disrespected nor ruled out the opinions of Bishops Zanic and Peric. As I recall it was Bishop Peric who asked the Vatican to form a commission to study it further since people were continuing to come from all over the world. It was not like the matter “was taken from the local Bishop” in the manner in which you say.
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Of course they would respect Bishop Zanic why would they not. Pope Benedict took this away from the Bishop and created a second commision. The result of which sits on Pope Francis’ desk. We do not know what is in that report.

The Local Bishop does not have Jurisdiction over the Apparitions. He has Jurisdiction over the parish yes but not the approval or disapproval of apparitions.
 
ProdigalSun said:
Why must it be viewed as evil origins?
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We live in a climate of “anti-religious authority”. Some Catholics use artificial birth control, saying “This matter is still under discussion. The Church has not made its ****final ****decision yet.” Laity ignore the directives of their pastors. (It is possible the bishop will overrule the pastor, so we can defy the pastor in the meantime).

Students in parochial schools talk back to teachers, break the school rules. Parents encourage their children to defy the principal and teacher. One politically active sister defied Pope Benedict, defended abortion in the mass media. The SSPX ordains priests, and even ordained bishops without permission, defying St. JP II (while hanging his picture in the vestibule).

The excuse always is, Well, we respect just authority, but in ****this ****situation the *matter is still under discussion/
*the rule does not apply to us/
*the rule-maker exceeded his authority/
  • there is a chance the teacher or principal is wrong and our darling child is right/
    *we have heard there is some commission, somewhere, that has not released its ****final ****decision on this school rule/contraception/Medjugorje/what-have-you, so we can continue our present actions, ignoring some provisional bishop statement, in the meantime. Some people say they are in papal obedience, but acting now as obedient to the *next *pope not the current one.
Of course when ****that ****commission refuses to condone our actions, there will be reports of ****another ****commission/emissary/pending investigation/new principal, bishop or pope, so we will wait till ****that ****is done. Defiance continuing in the meantime.
 
commenter said:
We live in a climate of “anti-religious authority”. Some Catholics use artificial birth control, saying “This matter is still under discussion. The Church has not made its ****final ****decision yet.” Laity ignore the directives of their pastors. (It is possible the bishop will overrule the pastor, so we can defy the pastor in the meantime).

Students in parochial schools talk back to teachers, break the school rules. Parents encourage their children to defy the principal and teacher. One politically active sister defied Pope Benedict, defended abortion in the mass media. The SSPX ordains priests, and even ordained bishops without permission, defying St. JP II (while hanging his picture in the vestibule).

The excuse always is, Well, we respect just authority, but in ****this ****situation the *matter is still under discussion/
*the rule does not apply to us/
*the rule-maker exceeded his authority/
  • there is a chance the teacher or principal is wrong and our darling child is right/
    *we have heard there is some commission, somewhere, that has not released its ****final ****decision on this school rule/contraception/Medjugorje/what-have-you, so we can continue our present actions, ignoring some provisional bishop statement, in the meantime. Some people say they are in papal obedience, but acting now as obedient to the *next *pope not the current one.
Of course when ****that ****commission refuses to condone our actions, there will be reports of ****another ****commission/emissary/pending investigation/new principal, bishop or pope, so we will wait till ****that ****is done. Defiance continuing in the meantime.
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It is not hard to determine what church teachingis on contraceptives just like it is not hard to determine the the church has not ruled on the authenticity of Medjugorje. It is not me that is questioning what the church is saying it seems to be you!
 
ProdigalSun said:
What magic tricks? Fatima; Lourdes; Guadalupe… Magic tricks???

What about these apparitions smack of Gnosticism?
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We are not supposed to look for signs and public revelation is done. Everything that is necessary for our salvation was from Christ and is now complete, we are in the New Jerusalem. I get the feeling from devotees of these types of things that there is new information there that everybody must listen to in order to be saved.

For example from Fatima, the idea that more people go to hell for sins of the flesh than any other type of sin. I heard someone state that as if it’s an absolute fact just this weekend. I don’t believe that’s part of Church teaching, not much has been revealed about hell and how many end up there. Therefore it can only be viewed as new information and since it involves our potential damnation/salvation people will tend believe it hook, line, and sinker.

Another example is the end of the world theories surrounding some of the apparitions. I for one can’t wait until the 100 year anniversary of Fatima is done so the end of the world predictions will dry up.
 
commenter said:
We live in a climate of “anti-religious authority”. Some Catholics use artificial birth control, saying “This matter is still under discussion. The Church has not made its ****final ****decision yet.” Laity ignore the directives of their pastors. (It is possible the bishop will overrule the pastor, so we can defy the pastor in the meantime).

Students in parochial schools talk back to teachers, break the school rules. Parents encourage their children to defy the principal and teacher. One politically active sister defied Pope Benedict, defended abortion in the mass media. The SSPX ordains priests, and even ordained bishops without permission, defying St. JP II (while hanging his picture in the vestibule).

The excuse always is, Well, we respect just authority, but in ****this ****situation the *matter is still under discussion/
*the rule does not apply to us/
*the rule-maker exceeded his authority/
  • there is a chance the teacher or principal is wrong and our darling child is right/
    *we have heard there is some commission, somewhere, that has not released its ****final ****decision on this school rule/contraception/Medjugorje/what-have-you, so we can continue our present actions, ignoring some provisional bishop statement, in the meantime. Some people say they are in papal obedience, but acting now as obedient to the *next *pope not the current one.
Of course when ****that ****commission refuses to condone our actions, there will be reports of ****another ****commission/emissary/pending investigation/new principal, bishop or pope, so we will wait till ****that ****is done. Defiance continuing in the meantime.
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What are you insinuating commenter?

Here are some facts:
  1. Bishop Peric’s pronouncements on Medjugorje are his personal opinion.
    ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFAUBRY.HTM
  2. The Church’s envoy to Medjugorje, Archbishop Henryk Hoser, has said:
    “The Church has not yet spoken on the authenticity of the apparitions. We should calmly wait for the final position.”
    aleteia.org/2017/03/15/archbishop-henryk-hoser-to-aleteia-we-should-not-be-worried-about-medjugorje/
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_response_to_the_Medjugorje_apparitions

Official position of the Church[edit]
Until such time as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith releases its findings, the 1991 determination of the Yugoslav Bishops Conference of non constat de supernaturalitate (“It is undetermined at this time if it is of supernatural origin”) still stands, and the Holy See considers this judgement still operative.[13] Traditionally, there have been one of three determinations with regard to apparitions: 1. Constat de supernaturalitate (Determined to be supernatural) (approved) 2. Non constat de supernaturalitate (Not determined to be supernatural) (Neither approved or condemned - not determined - neutral) 3. Constat de non supernaturalitate (Determined not to be supernatural) (condemned) Until such time as the Vatican commission’s findings are revealed and approved by the pope, the “not determined” ruling remains in effect.
 
J_Peterson said:
We are not supposed to look for signs and public revelation is done. Everything that is necessary for our salvation was from Christ and is now complete, we are in the New Jerusalem. I get the feeling from devotees of these types of things that there is new information there that everybody must listen to in order to be saved. Not from any one I know! In her messages OUr lady asks us to Pray, Fast, Read Sripture, Avail ourselves of the sacraments. She says nothing about listen to me or go to hell!

For example from Fatima, the idea that more people go to hell for sins of the flesh than any other type of sin. I heard someone state that as if it’s an absolute fact just this weekend. I don’t believe that’s part of Church teaching, not much has been revealed about hell and how many end up there. Therefore it can only be viewed as new information and since it involves our potential damnation/salvation people will tend believe it hook, line, and sinker. I don’t know what is the most pervasive sin but I know the this type of sin is my biggest problem"

Another example is the end of the world theories surrounding some of the apparitions. I for one can’t wait until the 100 year anniversary of Fatima is done so the end of the world predictions will dry up.
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Unfortunately these will never dry up. My guess is the my world here will end much sooner than the whole world will end. I will continue to worry about that. I always suggest to people that is the end one should concern themselves with.
 
👍
1Lord1Faith said:
What are you insinuating commenter?

Here are some facts:
  1. Bishop Peric’s pronouncements on Medjugorje are his personal opinion.
    ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFAUBRY.HTM
  2. The Church’s envoy to Medjugorje, Archbishop Henryk Hoser, has said:
    “The Church has not yet spoken on the authenticity of the apparitions. We should calmly wait for the final position.”
    aleteia.org/2017/03/15/archbishop-henryk-hoser-to-aleteia-we-should-not-be-worried-about-medjugorje/
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👍

I would like to emphasis the word calmly. Bishop Hoser is talking about the fruits of Medjugorje and there are many fruits. You know it is possible that all of what is going on there is real. What I have witnessed there and how I feel about my faith and church I can honestly say was helped by my pilgrimage. I will always follow the church and his Vicar whereever they lead.

Peace!
 
ProdigalSun said:
Of course they would respect Bishop Zanic why would they not. Pope Benedict took this away from the Bishop and created a second commision. The result of which sits on Pope Francis’ desk. We do not know what is in that report.

The Local Bishop does not have Jurisdiction over the Apparitions. He has Jurisdiction over the parish yes but not the approval or disapproval of apparitions.
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I disagree with your wording that Pope Benedict took anything away from the Bishop. Please cite any documentation to prove your statement. The decision determining the authenticity of alleged visions always rests with the decision of the Pope. It is not a slight against the local bishop for the Holy See to intervene.

Also, it has been said that Cardinal Ratzinger, a former Prefect of the Sacred Congregation For Divine Faith responded to a question from a concerned German who gathered various statements that were being circulated among the Medjugorje promoters and followers supposedly attributed to the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II and to himself. In response to the question of the authenticity of these statements, Cardinal Ratzinger responded “frei erfunden” . He said, * “The only thing I can say regarding statements on Medjugorje ascribed to the Holy Father and myself is that they are complete invention” “frei erfunden”* md-tm.ba/clanci/medugorje-secrets-messages-vocations-prayers-confessions-commissions (And by the way, Pope Benedict did not create the second commission.)
 
ProdigalSun said:
It is not hard to determine what church teachingis on contraceptives just like it is not hard to determine the the church has not ruled on the authenticity of Medjugorje. It is not me that is questioning what the church is saying it seems to be you!
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You will notice I did not say the apparitions at Medjugorje result from the “father of lies”. I met many people who did make a pilgrimage there, who were and still are good and holy.
I am simply pointing out the tendency - the temptation, over the last 50 years, to challenge Church authority. I feel this temptation myself, sometimes give in to it.

Wouldn’t you agree that this anti-religious-authority climate exists? And that even good people can get caught up in it?

This may explain why people routinely bypass shrines fully approved by the local bishop to attend those that are not. There’s a little extra “zing” to *unapproved *shrines, *unofficial *Catholic websites, *independent *Catholic speakers.

Even people who readily agree the anti-religious-authority temptation exists in 2017, and recognize how it affects other people, tend not to recognize how it biases ourselves.
 
ProdigalSun said:
👍

👍

I would like to emphasis the word calmly. Bishop Hoser is talking about the fruits of Medjugorje and there are many fruits. You know it is possible that all of what is going on there is real. What I have witnessed there and how I feel about my faith and church I can honestly say was helped by my pilgrimage. I will always follow the church and his Vicar whereever they lead.

Peace!
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The fruits are a result of the grace of God flowing from the reception of the sacraments that the Church provides to those pilgrims who flock to Medjugorge.
 
commenter said:
You will notice I did not say the apparitions at Medjugorje result from the “father of lies”. I met many people who did make a pilgrimage there, who were and still are good and holy.
I am simply pointing out the tendency - the temptation, over the last 50 years, to challenge Church authority. I feel this temptation myself, sometimes give in to it.

Wouldn’t you agree that this anti-religious-authority climate exists? And that even good people can get caught up in it? DOes it exsist, I don’t know.

This may explain why people routinely bypass shrines fully approved by the local bishop to attend those that are not. There’s a little extra “zing” to *unapproved *shrines, *unofficial *Catholic websites, *independent *Catholic speakers. Yuo have no basisi in fact here that people choose to go to unofficial shrines because of the extra Zing of fisrepecting the church. Red Herring

Even people who readily agree the anti-religious-authority temptation exists in 2017, and recognize how it affects other people, tend not to recognize how it biases ourselves. SOurce please?
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zab said:
The fruits are a result of the grace of God flowing from the reception of the sacraments that the Church provides to those pilgrims who flock to Medjugorge.
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True. The lives of all those pilgrims I have known are also the fruit of solid Catholic family life or pastoral/catechetical foundation back home, prior to their pilgrimage. That is why you can’t measure the “fruits” of Medjugorje itself by people who travel thousands of miles on pilgrimage. They were a changed population to begin with.

You can measure the fruits of an apparition site by the lives of people who live within 100 miles. Do **they **have more vocations, more confessions? Is the marriage/divorce rate different from the Balkans in general? I am just saying that is where you measure the fruits of Medjugrje itself. The Marian intervention would have much more impact on people who live close by for 12 months a year, than on those who visit there for a week or so. And maybe it does.
 
zab said:
The fruits are a result of the grace of God flowing from the reception of the sacraments that the Church provides to those pilgrims who flock to Medjugorge.
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And your point being?

All grace and Fruits come from God everywhere all over the world, even in Fatima or Lourders. I’m not sure how this in any way detracts from what is happening in Medjugorje.

We know that Fruits do not prove anything supernatural but I was not aware that they disapprove anything!

I was merely pointing out that this is one of the areas that Bishop Hoser touched on. It was very nice to hear!👍
 
commenter said:
True. The lives of all those pilgrims I have known are also the fruit of solid Catholic family life or pastoral/catechetical foundation back home, prior to their pilgrimage. That is why you can’t measure the “fruits” of Medjugorje itself by people who travel thousands of miles on pilgrimage. They were a changed population to begin with.

You can measure the fruits of an apparition site by the lives of people who live within 100 miles. Do **they **have more vocations, more confessions? Is the marriage/divorce rate different from the Balkans in general? I am just saying that is where you measure the fruits of Medjugrje itself. The Marian intervention would have much more impact on people who live close by for 12 months a year, than on those who visit there for a week or so. And maybe it does.
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I would suggest that they are!
 
zab said:
I meant to say , “I would point out that they most likely listen to and respect their bishop!”
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Listening to and respecting - obeying - the local bishop is one of the “fruits” that would be consistent with an authentic marian apparition.

Challenging the local bishop is a different kind of sign. If it is a genuine marian apparition, the leaders would say, ok, we think it is genuine, but we will cease all communications and publications regarding the apparitions, and discourage all pilgrims, at this time, because the Church’s only position thus far is that no, it is not supernatural in origin. No speeches, no Medjugorje conferences, no websites, no new hotels, nothing; for now. Maybe for always.

If, and when, the Church takes a different position, then, we will resume communications about revelations, publications, conferences, etc, and encourage pilgrimages. But for now we will respect the only position the Church has taken, as through our local bishop.

If they were willing to put it on hold for now, **that **would be a powerful sign. If it really is supernatural in origin, Medjugorje could be resumed in 5 years or so, if the Church authorized it. It would not be hurt at all by the pause. God could communicate in other ways, in other places.
 
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