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TMC
Guest
Critics may well be having trouble “understanding” what they don’t want to believe.
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JosieN
Guest
What truth is the Pope preaching? He cannot change the Gospel. or the words of Jesus Christ. What did Jesus say when asked if it was lawful for a man to divorce his wife?
This is what He said in Matthew Chapter 19
“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
If it is not lawful for a man to divorce his wife, then it is a sin. If you have committed a sin or are living in a sinful relationship and have not confessed or changed your behavior do you think you should receive Holy Communion.? It is the Body of Christ.
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otjm
Guest
The document was written to the bishops and to the priests, and is a direction to them in the pastoral care of the faithful.
Catechesis, while important; is a separate topic, and has been and is being dealt with by Church leaders.
And yes, I know there are a number of people who want a sermon instead of a homily, but the Church has taken the position that after the Gospel, a homily is to be given - which is not a format for intense catechesis such as is needed by those who missed it the first time through, but who still come to Mass.
I can’t speak to your parish, but we are not being given stones in mine. Nor is this a stone.
And one of the critical problems the Church faces - and has faced, I would submit, well before Vatican 2 - is getting adults to realize that there is a need for constant learning in the Faith.
Sadly, it seems that the ones who have a stronger grasp on the Faith are the very ones who do more reading…
I would suggest reading the blog by Dr. Peters noted by Abyssinia.
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kyrie03
Guest
Pope Francis in his Papal Exhortation at 298 is talking about people living in adulterous relationships - for serious reasons they cannot separate?! He justifies the situation with a footnote from John Paul II in Gaudium Spes.
GLARING DIFFERENCE- John Paul II isn’t talking about irregular relationships, but married couples living as brother and sister for a time to prevent pregnancy for serious reasons. The Church has never offered adulterous couples the possibility of periodically living as brother and sister -intimate separation is to be permanent. If anything, faithfulness is, in fact, endangered and the good of the children suffers from witnessing the parents’ unwillingness to embrace the Cross and walk in the way of righteousness.
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otjm
Guest
The Pope is not preaching, nor is he writing to you or to me, and if you cannot understand that, you will continue to be frustrated, and continue to (effectively) berate the Pope for not doing what you wanted.
Let me try it this way: he wrote a pastoral direction to pastoral leaders. As in, priests and bishops.
And I kinda think the great majority of them already understand what you complain is not made plain and obvious.
In reading other posters, it appears that at least a few of them doubt the orthodoxy of the great majority of priests and bishops, as well as their willingness to follow the Magisterium teachings of the last 2,000 years.
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deaconjohnO
Guest
Actually I love this document it has made me think very deeply. I see things in a bit different light. Very profound and I am appreciative of it. I will be using it as a guide to pastoral situations. God bless Pope Francis. Pray and read the document it is very good.
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TMC
Guest
Have you read the exhortation? The Pope has not repudiated Christ. He has addressed how to care for His flock.
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otjm
Guest
Oops. My sincere apologies, as I did not intentionally leave out deacons - you have a pastoral role as well.
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JosieN
Guest
You asked me if there was a possibility the Pope was preaching the truth? I answered in the best way I knew how to, and explained why. I think I should have just said no to your question. I may have upset many people with my answer.
No, I have not read it. I like most people will never read it, but I do know what people are saying about it, and that saddens me.
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PPeterson
Guest
Heaven forbid you guys take the time to read 300 pages before deciding you know better than the pope.
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kyrie03
Guest
In Apostolic Exhortation 300, Pope Francis discusses the divorced and civilly remarried:
Why couldn’t Pope Francis make it clear by referencing what else St Ambrose says of reception of the Sacraments? Christ, then, feeds His Church with these sacraments, by means of which the substance of the soul is strengthened, and seeing the continual progress of her grace, He rightly says to her: How comely are your breasts, my sister, my spouse, how comely they are made by wine, and the smell of your garments is above all spices. A dropping honeycomb are your lips, my spouse, honey and milk are under your tongue, and the smell of your garments is as the smell of Lebanon. A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed. By which He signifies that the mystery ought to remain sealed up with you, that it be not violated by the deeds of an evil life, and pollution of chastity, that it be not made known to thou, for whom it is not fitting, nor by garrulous talkativeness it be spread abroad among unbelievers. Your guardianship of the faith ought therefore to be good, that integrity of life and silence may endure unblemished newadvent.org/fathers/3405.htm
Footnote 336 says discernment can be used to allow the sacraments (including Communion)
Why does no grave fault exist? Evangelii Gaudium, also written by Pope Francis, in paragraphs 44 and 47 referenced says:
And footnote 51 of Evangelii Gaudium refers to selected quotes of St Ambrose, St Cyril of Alexandria, St John the Evangelist, and the Psalms:
The Church has NEVER taught reception of Communion takes away mortal/deadly sin (such as divorce and civil remarriage or irregular relationships), only venial/less serious sins. And although I looked for this clarification in the Exhortation, it was not even hidden in a footnote of a footnote.
Why couldn’t Pope Francis make it clear by referencing what else St Ambrose says of reception of the Sacraments? Christ, then, feeds His Church with these sacraments, by means of which the substance of the soul is strengthened, and seeing the continual progress of her grace, He rightly says to her: How comely are your breasts, my sister, my spouse, how comely they are made by wine, and the smell of your garments is above all spices. A dropping honeycomb are your lips, my spouse, honey and milk are under your tongue, and the smell of your garments is as the smell of Lebanon. A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed. By which He signifies that the mystery ought to remain sealed up with you, that it be not violated by the deeds of an evil life, and pollution of chastity, that it be not made known to thou, for whom it is not fitting, nor by garrulous talkativeness it be spread abroad among unbelievers. Your guardianship of the faith ought therefore to be good, that integrity of life and silence may endure unblemished newadvent.org/fathers/3405.htm
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djames99
Guest
We owe a lot to the SSPX. Every Pope and priest today owes thanks to the SSPX, actually a synonym for Traditional Catholicism. It was this that the Pope finally realized after studying A.B LeFebvre’s exhortation to the Magisterium, and prior to his excommunication of him. Under closer study of his lucubrative work, what unfolded before them was a Catholic narrative of theological truth, and even a compendium for the Catechism of the Church substantiated through the ages for 2000 years.
The result of ignoring it is what we see today, a mop up of policies that were implemented since the 50’s. Lefebvre desired the Church to stand firm, and unconsciously, so did those wanting change. Like a thorn being removed from a child, and not knowing that that is what he really desires, the Church relented to the demands for lighter discipline and obligation, and one patterned to the protestant template. They got what they wanted, and the SSPX was placed on what was thought was the final flames. Only lately has things begin to fall apart, and now the flames been doused so that it can be placed in storage.
But back to your feelings of uncleanliness. People who go to confession would justifiably feel shame, even after absolution. I feel shame, a ‘stain’ of sorts, even now for offending God and rehash those horrible days. I am also justifiably shamed because of those who were personally affected by the sin. I let down my community by doing so. The reason is because an offense to God is also an offense to His community. In fact, the Church states that the community is to ostracize the individual if there is valid proof he remains obstinate in serious sin. This isn’t a new rule for today, in fact Catholics would want it no other way.
The community is allowed some rebound time to allow the dust to settle, so a period of reconciling may be in order. That makes the extra a temporal punishment for my benefit.
The Catholic today needs to clean slate, and in so doing keeps him out of the protestant definition. The influential errors today from a whole line of protestant churches, as well as from those who made the world their church and community, make it mandatory that every Catholic seek guidance from the Church in his life, before he takes action.
“Instead of listening to protestant Mike who says I can get married to Muslim Omad, perhaps I should ask my priest or deacon first for his opinion.”
“Instead of falling for that HS impulse to experiment with Pete and his come-ons, maybe I could get rid of the temptation by taking up a devotion to Mary through the Rosary. After all, she is anxious to help and even made the promise.”
What may be told the reluctant person may make him uncomfortable, and even want that ‘thorn’ to remain.
Thank God for being uncomfortable, for receiving admonishment, for allowing me to administer to myself self mortification, because by it I have received a revelation.
God loves me enough to allow me time to change my life and attitudes.
The result of ignoring it is what we see today, a mop up of policies that were implemented since the 50’s. Lefebvre desired the Church to stand firm, and unconsciously, so did those wanting change. Like a thorn being removed from a child, and not knowing that that is what he really desires, the Church relented to the demands for lighter discipline and obligation, and one patterned to the protestant template. They got what they wanted, and the SSPX was placed on what was thought was the final flames. Only lately has things begin to fall apart, and now the flames been doused so that it can be placed in storage.
But back to your feelings of uncleanliness. People who go to confession would justifiably feel shame, even after absolution. I feel shame, a ‘stain’ of sorts, even now for offending God and rehash those horrible days. I am also justifiably shamed because of those who were personally affected by the sin. I let down my community by doing so. The reason is because an offense to God is also an offense to His community. In fact, the Church states that the community is to ostracize the individual if there is valid proof he remains obstinate in serious sin. This isn’t a new rule for today, in fact Catholics would want it no other way.
The community is allowed some rebound time to allow the dust to settle, so a period of reconciling may be in order. That makes the extra a temporal punishment for my benefit.
The Catholic today needs to clean slate, and in so doing keeps him out of the protestant definition. The influential errors today from a whole line of protestant churches, as well as from those who made the world their church and community, make it mandatory that every Catholic seek guidance from the Church in his life, before he takes action.
“Instead of listening to protestant Mike who says I can get married to Muslim Omad, perhaps I should ask my priest or deacon first for his opinion.”
“Instead of falling for that HS impulse to experiment with Pete and his come-ons, maybe I could get rid of the temptation by taking up a devotion to Mary through the Rosary. After all, she is anxious to help and even made the promise.”
What may be told the reluctant person may make him uncomfortable, and even want that ‘thorn’ to remain.
Thank God for being uncomfortable, for receiving admonishment, for allowing me to administer to myself self mortification, because by it I have received a revelation.
God loves me enough to allow me time to change my life and attitudes.
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TMC
Guest
So you have not read it, but are convinced somehow that the Pope is teaching untruths, based on what some mostly anonymous internet posters have said. OK.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
You would prob be right if access to Communion for those in a state of "public adultery "(which is not always about sexual acts) was a purely doctrinal matter.
In fact it is a prudential application of doctrinal principles - a “discipline”.
This clearly is Pope Francis’s view.
It may therefore be tweaked over time.
Which appears to be happening in this Pontificate.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Kyrie please quote a Magisterial source that clearly states one in an irregular marriage is dead to the life of God
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Remind us again what you believe was so clearly revealed?
Strange that many sincere, highly educated and pastorally experienced Cardinals and the current Supreme pontiff may have missed this?
I know! Just maybe less educated, less experienced and less respected you might just possibly have misunderstood Catholic tradition?
Just sayin
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Tomdstone
Guest
If a person commits a mortal sin, would he be dead to the life of God, or is he still spiritually alive?Kyrie please quote a Magisterial source that clearly states one in an irregular marriage is dead to the life of God
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JimG
Guest
I think that the Catholic tradition is that one cannot be validly married to more than one spouse at the same time. I presume that the exhortation does not change that.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Part of the problem Josie is that in a messy human world it is sometimes difficult to prove to a tribunal that one’s first marriage never actually existed, and if this is the case before God one is not actually committing true adultery in the irregular marriage.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Tomdstone have you actually done any tertiary level moral theology studies?
I don’t think so because you are still using the confused terminology the nuns used to teach, or perhaps lay teachers at a secondary school.
You have confused personal “mortal sin” with a public “state of mortal sin”.
Two very different beasts.
As I say, the two are not at all the same though related.
One can be in an active homosexual relationship, have a mistress or be in an irregular marriage and still posess sanctifying grace (ie the life of God) in one’s soul.
People can be barred from Communion for a variety of reasons, some due to grave personal sin (only I myself would know) and some due to grave public sin.
You seem to see all these things mixed up together as the same - which is typical of a simple education in the faith that has not been upgraded to a more mature diet.
As my Theology Professor used to say, “I don’t blame you, I blame those that sent you.”
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