Papal exhortation avoids clear statement on Communion

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It became much more popular for the laity to read the documents produced by the Church, after Vatican 2.

And a goodly number of those people misread those documents (and subsequent ones).

This letter is not directed to laity; it is directed to bishops, and to the priests under them. I have no doubt that some lay people may read the document, and not being capable of critical reading (as well as being grounded in the Faith), may come to erroneous conclusions.
Very good insight I believe.

But you seriously overstate the matter; most people in irregular marriages are not going to Mass, are not likely to go to Mass, and are therefore not going to be within the group you propose.
And prior to this document being promulgated, precious few people in irregular marriages have been going to Mass. Of the extremely few who may have been, either they were already going to Communion (so the Exhortation is irrelevant to the issue), or have been observant of the rule; which would imply that one document which they may or may not have heard a blurb about is far less likely to impact any decision, or is likely to lead them to inquire of their priest…
Not sure about this. For some years I sat in the back pew on Sunday and did not receive (though my priest (a Monsignor) spiritual director encouraged me to). Finally got things sorted and all good.
 
GLARING DIFFERENCE- John Paul II isn’t talking about irregular relationships, but married couples living as brother and sister for a time to prevent pregnancy for serious reasons. The Church has never offered adulterous couples the possibility of periodically living as brother and sister -intimate separation is to be permanent. If anything, faithfulness is, in fact, endangered and the good of the children suffers from witnessing the parents’ unwillingness to embrace the Cross and walk in the way of righteousness.
Pope Francis’s point is not what you think it is.

He merely observes that if it is pastorally prudentially accepted that an irregular couple in certain circumstances should not separate (sake of kids) - which still seems to be against Jesus’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage even if they are continent - then there could also be prudential reasons why they should also be advised not to stop having a sexual relationship (it may affect stability) - which also seems to be against Jesus’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.

Perfectly logical and pastorally acceptable advice.
Couples in stable “legitimate” irregular marriages (ie tolerated to stay together for the kid’s sake) “burn” just as much as those in clean Catholic marriages do they not?

Yes, Pope Francis is going beyond Pope Benedict’s prudential allowance (you can stay together for the kids sake). As Pope he is allowed to isn’t he? Its a prudential judgement.
 
The Church has NEVER taught reception of Communion takes away mortal/deadly sin (such as divorce and civil remarriage or irregular relationships), only venial/less serious sins. And although I looked for this clarification…
It doesn’t really need clarification Kyrie.
Its clear for those who understand basic Catholic moral theology.
I believe you have the same mistaken view of “sin” as Tomdstone.
(See below for the beginnings of the clarification you seek).

You really have no clear idea at all wrt the different types of defined sin involved in this complex situation. You also confuse personal sin with public sin.
Nor do you understand the multiple different reasons why a person may not receive Communion.

It may be better to stop embarrassing yourself on this forum and spend your energy improving your understanding of Catholic moral theology of sin first.
All this running around and swinging of arms in a china shop where even angels would fear to tread probably doesn’t help anyone :eek:.

Sorry for the mixed metaphor.
 
If anything, faithfulness is, in fact, endangered and the good of the children suffers from witnessing the parents’ unwillingness to embrace the Cross and walk in the way of righteousness.
Not always. This is the type of pidgeon-holing of situations that the Holy Father is warning his priests to avoid. There is more than one way to embrace the cross.

Glaring difference? I think Pope Francis has a better grasp on Familiaris Consortio. It was his starting point. Of course there is some difference. Otherwise he would not have seen the need for a new statement.
 
Kyrie please quote a Magisterial source that clearly states one in an irregular marriage is dead to the life of God .
If a person commits a mortal sin, would he be dead to the life of God, or is he still spiritually alive?
These two are not equivalent, or even close. One thing the Holy Father has done in this Amoris Laetitia is apply the same theology of sin that we apply in every other sin to the sin that is inherent in remarrying. I only am surprised this has not been done before. It is not objective sin that separates us from God, makes us spiritual dead, but actual, deliberate commission of mortal sin.
 
One can be in an active homosexual relationship, have a mistress or be in an irregular marriage and still posess sanctifying grace (ie the life of God) in one’s soul.
Is it a mortal sin to “be in an active homosexual relationship, have a mistress” or to commit adultery?
 
These two are not equivalent, or even close. One thing the Holy Father has done in this Amoris Laetitia is apply the same theology of sin that we apply in every other sin to the sin that is inherent in remarrying. I only am surprised this has not been done before. It is not objective sin that separates us from God, makes us spiritual dead, but actual, deliberate commission of mortal sin.
I’m surprised as well that this hasn’t been thought of before. I think that we were too focused on the new relationship being a “state” of adultery when in reality adultery is a sinful act, and the “state” referred to in the statement “state of adultery” is instead rather a state of public scandal; adultery isn’t a “state”, it’s an act. A state of scandal is not the same thing as an act of adultery, because the scandal can exist even if no act takes place, based on perception. But creating perception cannot, I think, be construed as a deliberate mortal sin in all cases.

If the Holy Father is saying that for the sake of family unity and children it is best for a couple in an irregular situation to remain together, and even to remain sexually active in order to reinforce stability, then that good can hardly be a perception of scandal and it seems to me it would be, in the modern context where serial divorce is a regular occurrence, in itself a sign of hope if the second union is long-term and stable.

I suspect then that he is separating the notion of a state of public scandal from the act of adultery. Again, adultery is an “act”, not a state. It is an act that consists of grave matter, but like other acts of grave matter, culpability is dependent on the other two factors for it to be mortal.

Interestingly we don’t speak of two unmarried people living together as living in a “state” of fornication. We euphemistically say they are “living in sin”; however the reality is that each and everyone of us is “living in sin” because “sin” isn’t just the act of shacking up, everyone is a sinner. The couple living together are committing acts of fornication (assuming neither of them was previously married). But the main sin is the act. People live together all the time for various reasons and should not automatically considered to be scandalous. In any case, I don’t think anyone is scandalized anymore by people living together.

So the Holy Father is saying basically that the act of adultery is just like any other sin, sexual or otherwise, that it is forgivable and may in some cases have mitigating factors that limit culpability. It’s no different than what the CCC says about masturbation. Some time ago in discussions during the two Synods, I brought up the possibility that this is the direction that the Holy Father may go in, without changing an iota of Catholic doctrine, but the “usual suspects” shot me down saying you cannot give absolution to someone in living in a “state of adultery”

I suppose he is also implying that due to the pervasiveness of marital failure and remarriage in our society it can no longer be construed as “public scandal” in most eyes, so the focus has shifted to the sinful acts themselves, reinforcing the stability of the union for the greater good (e.g. children), and working to the possibility of regularizing the irregular situation if possible, if not, maximizing the chances of creating a stable loving environment for the children.
 
It is grave matter and an objective mortal sin, one of the three components of mortal sin.
Can a person ever have full consent of the will for these things or in consideration of the new knowledge given to us by modern psychology, sociology and political correctness, is there almost always some mitigating circumstance that prevents 100% sufficient reflection and the 100% full consent of the will?
 
I’m surprised as well that this hasn’t been thought of before. I think that we were too focused on the new relationship being a “state” of adultery when in reality adultery is a sinful act, and the “state” referred to in the statement “state of adultery” is instead rather a state of public scandal; adultery isn’t a “state”, it’s an act. A state of scandal is not the same thing as an act of adultery, because the scandal can exist even if no act takes place, based on perception. But creating perception cannot, I think, be construed as a deliberate mortal sin in all cases.

If the Holy Father is saying that for the sake of family unity and children it is best for a couple in an irregular situation to remain together, and even to remain sexually active in order to reinforce stability, then that good can hardly be a perception of scandal and it seems to me it would be, in the modern context where serial divorce is a regular occurrence, in itself a sign of hope if the second union is long-term and stable.

I suspect then that he is separating the notion of a state of public scandal from the act of adultery. Again, adultery is an “act”, not a state. It is an act that consists of grave matter, but like other acts of grave matter, culpability is dependent on the other two factors for it to be mortal.

Interestingly we don’t speak of two unmarried people living together as living in a “state” of fornication. We euphemistically say they are “living in sin”; however the reality is that each and everyone of us is “living in sin” because “sin” isn’t just the act of shacking up, everyone is a sinner. The couple living together are committing acts of fornication (assuming neither of them was previously married). But the main sin is the act. People live together all the time for various reasons and should not automatically considered to be scandalous. In any case, I don’t think anyone is scandalized anymore by people living together.

So the Holy Father is saying basically that the act of adultery is just like any other sin, sexual or otherwise, that it is forgivable and may in some cases have mitigating factors that limit culpability. It’s no different than what the CCC says about masturbation. Some time ago in discussions during the two Synods, I brought up the possibility that this is the direction that the Holy Father may go in, without changing an iota of Catholic doctrine, but the “usual suspects” shot me down saying you cannot give absolution to someone in living in a “state of adultery”

I suppose he is also implying that due to the pervasiveness of marital failure and remarriage in our society it can no longer be construed as “public scandal” in most eyes, so the focus has shifted to the sinful acts themselves, reinforcing the stability of the union for the greater good (e.g. children), and working to the possibility of regularizing the irregular situation if possible, if not, maximizing the chances of creating a stable loving environment for the children.
Neither couples shacking up nor divorce is scandalous in the sense of offending others’ sensibilities. Both are too common for that. But they remain scandalous in the moral sense: by their very widespread occurence, they enable the sin of others, who look to them as examples.

And since another human being cannot judge the state of another’s soul, we can’t impute moral culpability. So, what is the outcome here? Is it that one who lives in an irregular state objectively opposed to the moral law of God need not have recourse to the sacrament of Penance and a purpose of amendment, unless they themselves are subjectively conscious of grave sin? Should they not consider the likely possibility of an erroneous conscience?
 
Can a person ever have full consent of the will for these things or in consideration of the new knowledge given to us by modern psychology, sociology and political correctness, is there almost always some mitigating circumstance that prevents 100% sufficient reflection and the 100% full consent of the will?
:confused: I answered the other question. This seems to be just rhetoric. I do not want to play.
 
“But when we add it all up, it often seems that the effect of this approach is to lead us to conclude that no “sin” has ever occurred. Everything has an excusing cause. If this conclusion is correct, we really have no need for mercy, which has no meaning apart from actual sin and its free recognition. One goes away from this approach not being sorry for his sins but relieved in realizing that he has never really sinned at all.”

Fr. James V. Schall S.J.
 
And since another human being cannot judge the state of another’s soul, we can’t impute moral culpability. So, what is the outcome here? Is it that one who lives in an irregular state objectively opposed to the moral law of God need not have recourse to the sacrament of Penance and a purpose of amendment, unless they themselves are subjectively conscious of grave sin? Should they not consider the likely possibility of an erroneous conscience?
I don’t think that the document suggests this at all. I have not yet read it all from cover to cover… I’m about half way through as we speak, in a linear start-to-finish manner (so far it is really down to earth and clearly written by someone with pastoral experience), and I have read the parts on irregular situations (chapter 8).

The Holy Father is most certainly not suggesting a flippant attitude towards these issues and recognizes their objective sinfulness. But he is also realistic, and realizes that moral culpability can be mitigated in certain cases just as in any other sin and that perfection is a human impossibility. He suggests working with a priest who knows the couple for discernment.

It is clear to me that these things are to be worked out in the confessional, and perhaps with a priest outside the confessional. But the confessional is essential; a good confessor is worth his weight in gold. Technically it is not mortal sin we are to confess: it is grave matter. In the confessional the priest will be able to guide the penitent and help the penitent determine if the culpability is mortal or not Whether it is mortal or not, absolution can be given with a firm purpose of amendment, even if the amendment, IMHO, is something that will need to be worked on over time. As an example, in my case, I was civilly married to an unbaptized woman who later was baptized in the Anglican church. I had a duty then to have our marriage convalidated. But it was not something I could achieve overnight. My wife was initially hostile to the idea (and the Church) and it took some years and our own dark night of our souls to overcome that. Eventually she did (the Benedictines were a tremendous help for this; and for my part I had to overcome some issues myself) and our marriage was convalidated.

As my confessor later said “I needed the grace of the sacraments to bring us to that point”.

The point here being that the confessional was not only of great help, it was absolutely essential. If the confessor says “you are not mortally culpable, and there is no need to confess this every week” one should take his advice seriously. But I think it is important to bring it up from time to time in order to assess together whether any progress is being made or whether circumstances have changed. It’s part of an ongoing conversion process. We don’t get from A to Z without meandering through B, C, D, and sometimes back pedalling back to B or A as we do the three steps forward, two back dance.

We also mustn’t be so obsessed with the letter of the law that we do injury to its intent and spirit.

One thing I have learned from reading those parts of the document that I have read so far: it is neither the “business as usual” attitude the self-described right-wing of the Church claims, and nor is it the wide-open change that the self-described left-wing would like to believe it is. It is fully orthodox, and pastoral. Those just trying to be faithful Catholics will get that it is neither a free pass, nor a door slammed shut on the noses of the very people that need sacramental grace the most.

I would urge folks to read it.
 
He lost me when he belittled the title by referring to it as something more likely from a Borgia Pope. I was further lost by his statement, “The intellectual precision that the Holy Father uses to excuse or lessen guilt is cause for some reflection.” I am grateful that we have a Holy Father that is capable of intellectual precision and does uses the two different words “lessen” and “excuse” so carelessley, or worse, as deliberate rhetoric to uncharitably and inaccurately criticize Pope Francis.
 
Canon lawyer Ed Peters:

The law before ‘Amoris’ is the law after

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/10/the-law-before-amoris-is-the-law-after/
I’ve refrained from commenting on this topic so far, as I really did not feel qualified to comment.

However, the article linked here is very interesting. Especially as it actually gives an example of an irregular marriage situation, that might not actually rise to the level of mortal sin.
Example: One who was baptized Catholic but raised without knowledge of that fact, is (incredibly) bound by canonical form and thus, if married outside of form, he or she would be, by definition, living in an irregular union. It would be ludicrous to refer to such a person as “living in sin”. I can offer a dozen more fact patterns that would duplicate this point.
I suppose one can wave this example away as irrelevant, since someone like that wouldn’t even be coming to Mass and wanting Communion in the first place.

But, I have read topics on CAF by people who have indeed found out that they were baptized Catholic as an infant, and never knew. I recall at least one post by someone who wanted to join the Church, went through RCIA, and suddenly found out that they didn’t need to go through the whole process, because they had been baptized in the Church already. What if such a person had married civilly, “joined” the Church still ignorant of their Catholic baptism, and gone to Communion? Since from what I understand, the Church does NOT require that converts from other faiths have their marriages, even civil ones, be convalidated if they convert. They are considered valid.

Certainly, some parents have babies baptized in the Church under social pressure, to please relatives, etc, but never planned to raise them Catholic in the first place. Or, they may convert to another branch of Christianity and stop considering themselves Catholic.

I’ve also read of well-intentioned grandparents or other relatives who take it upon themselves to secretly baptize babies if their own parents refuse to have them baptized Catholic. If such people never actually admit that, though, the child may grow up ignorant of that.

I can also think of a situation akin to “Martin Guerre”, assuming the wife really was fooled into thinking her real husband had returned (I know this is dubious but we’ll never know), she would have been objectively guilty of adultery, but not been “living in sin”, and AFAIK, her children with the imposter were actually “legitimized”.

Or, situations where a spouse is presumed lost at sea, killed in action in a war, etc. I actually know of a case happening in WWII to a distant relative of mine. He was presumed killed in action, and his wife remarried. But he’d actually been taken prisoner. When he returned, his wife did not wish to leave her new husband, I believe because they had children by that time. My relative actually died not long after from effects of his imprisonment, and the situation resolved itself.

And while I’ve noticed that most of the commentary posted on CAF about this comes from the US, or Europe, I can certainly think of many “developing” countries, often affected by civil wars, in which spouses might indeed go missing and be presumed dead, when they’re not. I guess some spouses would wait indefinitely, I can imagine some posters here who would state that if they don’t, they are sinning… But if they were actually given an official notice of death, are they really in a “state of mortal sin”?

Also, in many such countries, a woman simply cannot support herself without a man. Remarrying would be a matter of survival. Indeed, I believe that is why Christ stated that a man who divorces his wife “causes her to commit adultery”, because that was indeed the case for most women back in Biblical times, that a woman who is divorced would starve if she didn’t remarry or become a prostitute. Again, I suppose the saintly thing to do is for a wife to still refuse to remarry, even if it means starving to death. But I suspect that if she DOES remarry, her culpability is greatly reduced.
 
I answered the other question. This seems to be just rhetoric. I do not want to play.
So, nothing is clear cut. Mostly everything here is somewhat ambiguous. For example, someone can always argue that individual A did not have 100% sufficient reflection or 100% full consent of the will because current knowledge about modern psychology, contemporary sociology all point to environmental and cultural factors and external forces and causes over which the individual has no control, but which can influence the person to such an extent that these mitigating ingredients and circumstances affect the full consent of the will and the sufficient reflection necessary as one of the three conditions for a mortal sin?
 
Kyrie please quote a Magisterial source that clearly states one in an irregular marriage is dead to the life of God 🤷.
Maybe you misunderstand me.
Byzantines call “grace” the life of God, a share in the Divine Energies; Latins call it “sanctifying grace”. When one engages in activities proper only in marriage, he/she loses the life of God on the soul - Byzantines say absence of life of God; Latins say one has committed mortal/deadly sin. That doesn’t mean that God can no longer influence such a person to lead them back into the life of God, an “actual” grace to go to confession.
Purposeful actions that could lead to or excite the passions toward the action whereby God creates life (sexual intimacy) are licit only in marriage. Anyone who engages in actions proper only In marriage commits grave sin. Marriage exists only between 1 man and 1 woman; can’t be married to first spouse, divorce, and remarry civilly and presume to engage in marital activities with the next spouse. Do I really need to cite a Magisterial document to confirm this truth?

But maybe I misunderstand you?
Are you saying that the internal forum or a pastor can discern (without an annulment) that one can presume the first marriage was invalid and so the second marriage is the one recognized by God?
 
But maybe I misunderstand you?
Are you saying that the internal forum or a pastor can discern (without an annulment) that one can presume the first marriage was invalid and so the second marriage is the one recognized by God?
Have you read the exhortation?
 
It doesn’t really need clarification Kyrie.
Its clear for those who understand basic Catholic moral theology.
I believe you have the same mistaken view of “sin” as Tomdstone.
(See below for the beginnings of the clarification you seek).

You really have no clear idea at all wrt the different types of defined sin involved in this complex situation. You also confuse personal sin with public sin.
Nor do you understand the multiple different reasons why a person may not receive Communion.

It may be better to stop embarrassing yourself on this forum and spend your energy improving your understanding of Catholic moral theology of sin first.
All this running around and swinging of arms in a china shop where even angels would fear to tread probably doesn’t help anyone :eek:.

Sorry for the mixed metaphor.
Mortal sin is the absence of grace in the soul; when it is public it adds scandal. A person who has no grace in the soul cannot receive Communion without committing another grave sin of sacrilege. Food is meant for the living.

Where is the reverence due to God in all of this discussion? Who is defending His glory? Yes, I’d wager the angels are horrified with the legalistic wrangling and excuses for allowing the Most Pure Body and Most Precious Blood to be consumed by dead souls. And if I am embarrassing myself, thanks be to God! It is nothing in comparison to what Christ did for me!
 
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