Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

[MonFrere]

And we Acadiennes were swept out of Canada and removed to Louisiana by thte British. My Irish ancestors were deposited on the levees of New Orleans sick. There is a grave of 6,000 Irish workers who died digging the Basin St. Canal in NO.,

Who hears our voice Mon Frere and aloysiusg?

BrotherHRolf,

I wish I could hear you out Brother. I think I could learn a lot from having a conversation with you. I can’t do much, but I will do this. Tell me a your favorite traditional hymn. Then know that somewhere in Pennsylvania this Sunday that hymn will be playing in honor of you.

In charity,
MonFrere

 

[30miller]

I still don’t get what “clown masses” are. I avoided learning more about them, but they keep showing up. Can an Orthodox Catholic please explain what the heck is going on and who these people are?

Qui,
Despite anamchara’s post claiming that “…The clown “Masses” have been explained and proven to be nothing but rubbish…” - I suggest you simply click on the links I gave in my posts 459 and 532. One can certainly say that these are rubbish, but one can just as surely not say that they have been “…explained to be nothing but rubbish…”. Watch for yourself.

 

[Joysong]

Benedictgal:

First of all, Archbishop Pietro Marini is no longer in charge of the Holy Father’s liturgies. The new Papal MC is Msgr. Guidi Marini (no relation).

A person who is truly spiritual would have quit with this statement, as there was no real cause to go further and dishonor him in these words which you were only too happy to post:

Furthermore, the Holy Father made the switch because of some liturgical and theological differences. In fact, under Msgr. Marini, things have improved dramatically.

Bear in mind that this was, perhaps, Msgr. Marini’s first international liturgical celebration. His main focus was to prevent any anamolies that had occurred during Pope John Paul’s Apostolic voyages when the previous Papal MC was in charge of things.

Since you are fond of quotes, I submit this for your consideration from the CCC:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.

And the first incidence of detraction dishonoring him was not enough for you, so you further highlighted his service as mish-mash, leaving little doubt as to whom you were referring.

Now, unfortunately, what happened at DC was a tad too reminiscent of what used to occur at Masses celebrated by Pope John Paul II during his countless Apostolic voyages. What should have been a truly sacred occasion was marred by inappropriate multi-cultural mish-mash that served to only glorify cultural diversity rather than offer fitting adoration to God.

Sounds to me like more of the train wreck you allege regarding ministerial service that doesn’t meet with your approval.

Your deliberate detraction of this retired clergyman speaks volumes to me about your spirituality. I have totally lost all credibility concerning your posts and will no longer read them.

In closing, it would appear from your statement “In fact, under Msgr. Marini, things have improved dramatically,” that everything he arranged in DC was top-notch and much more in accord with the Pope’s wishes than that of his predecessor’s service!
Makes me wonder, where’s your beef?

 

[Joysong]

For any who came late to this thread, and still believe that the Pope is left to the mercy and whims of coordinators, without a word of (name removed by moderator)ut, it might help to review the policy explained at the Vatican:

OFFICE OF THE LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF

1. General preparation. Very often for special occasions such as the opening of a Synod, e.g., the Synod for Africa, an ecumenical liturgy, one of the many Holy Year celebrations, or a Papal Visit, preparation begins with a detailed plan, drafted with the help of qualified experts. This is followed by an on-the-spot investigation of the location, to identify the place of celebration, the positioning of fixed elements, the places for the ministers and the choice of local persons to carry out the various ministries and tasks, etc.

Moreover, the booklet for the use of the faithful must be put together, including, in the case of a Papal Visit a special missal for the Pope and concelebrants which harmonizes the different elements of the celebration (word, prayers, invitations, songs, ritual gestures), in order to ensure, as far as possible, that nothing is left to last-minute improvisation.

For each celebration the Office prepares a service booklet, or Præparanda, with the list of things to be done, the names of the persons involved in the celebration, the task assigned to each master of ceremonies, a diagram of the location showing the site and its elements and positions. Every celebration requires a rehearsal, usually the day before, to make sure that everything is clear and to solve any potential problems.

It is ludicrous to cast aspersions on the coordinators as if they were totally overriding the Pope who simply sat on his laurels and was surprised by everything that occurred.

 

[Michael_Neal]

*Originally Posted by MonFrere
The U.S. does struggle with race and ethnic differences; but our struggles do bear good fruit. And I certainly admit we’ve miles to go before we sleep.

MonFrere
*

This thread is living proof of that MonFrere.

That is not really a fair assessment. I don’t think anyone here is presenting any argument disparaging other’s ethnicity. We are simply saying that Mass is for worshiping God not celebrating diversity. There plenty of other opportunities for religious multicultural celebrations.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Both this one and your last post are indeed the truth. Thank you. And, in case you missed it, Harry Connick Jr. did sing in the pre-concert to the Yankee Stadium Mass.
And since they didn’t bother to ask me either - I would add Johnny Cash’s “He turned the water into wine” and Andy Griffith doing Wayfaring Stranger as well. Great non-liturgical spiritual music that I have on my Ipod. We should be multicultural enough to accept the sons of North Carolina and Arkansas as well.

Harry sang? I didn’t catch that. And, yes, you’re right the sons of North Carolina and Arkansas deserve as much. Which was exactly my point. We’re all immigrants except for Native Americans who did not sing in DC.

 

[MrS]

Posts 540-557

Probably the most charitable and worth-reading section of posts in this thread. Good comments, good opinions, and not banal in the least.

 

[30miller]

I have totally lost all credibility concerning your posts and will no longer read them.

The above was addressed to benedictgal by joysong. Benedictgal is sure to be devastated by this news - let us keep her in our thoughts today.

 

[30miller]

Harry sang? I didn’t catch that. And, yes, you’re right the sons of North Carolina and Arkansas deserve as much. Which was exactly my point. We’re all immigrants except for Native Americans who did not sing in DC.

Yes, I saw him interviewed on TV beforehand and it was a good interview. Harry came across as a good and faithful Catholic - and, of course, had a lot of good things to say about New Orleans and Louisiana. I don’t remember what TV network I saw it on as I was flipping around a lot when the “other” networks (besides the great EWTN) graced us with some coverage . I’m not sure if anyone carried the actual concert itself.

 

[30miller]

We are simply saying that Mass is for worshiping God not celebrating diversity. There plenty of other opportunities for religious multicultural celebrations.

Well said. The only problem is that “they” “need” to hijack the liturgy for the captive “audiences” it provides “them” (for their performances) - because if “they” tried to present their multicultural celebrations in any other format - e.g. in church halls, community centers, and other voluntary venues - no one would attend. Unfortunately, it’s the same reason some music “ministers” put themselves on their high horses and then assume attitudes about how they are treated at masses - claiming the spotlight and authority that is not really theirs. And they expect the rest of us to just keep quiet and accept everything they decide to do.

 

[benedictgal]

Having worked in the Texas Legislature for 12 years, I am quite accustomed to people taking things and spinning them to fit their own personal agenda. However, I do stand by my posts.

First of all, quoting from the Catechism isn’t necessarily germaine to this discussion simply because, while this is a necessary and important teaching document, it does not carry the force of law. It is important to know the Catechism; however, it is not the catch-all for everything. It was never meant to be because its purpose is to teach the Truth of the Church. It is not a regulatory document like the GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Second, there were some isues wth the previous Papal MC that may very well have led to his replacement. One of the friuts of the change is that the Masses at St. Peter’s Basilica have much improved. This certainly includes the Sistene Chapel Choir, which has improved greatly once the changes made by the previous Papal MC were reversed.

Furthermore, a person beaming with pride when addressing the Holy Father doesn’t necessarily validate their actions. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knelt down and kissed Pope Benedict’s ring during the White House welcoming reception. Her face was beaming, too. Yet, nothing has changed in her politics. She still went to receive Holy Communion despite her pro-abortion stance.

 

[aloysiusg]

Is it me, or after nearly 40 pages and over 550 posts are we no further along thean when this thread started?

 

[30miller]

Furthermore, a person beaming with pride when addressing the Holy Father doesn’t necessarily validate their actions. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knelt down and kissed Pope Benedict’s ring during the White House welcoming reception. Her face was beaming, too. Yet, nothing has changed in her politics. She still went to receive Holy Communion despite her pro-abortion stance.

I was stunned as I watched that for exactly the reason you state (as I was when Rudy Giulianni presented himself for communion at the St. Patrick’s Mass). And please correct me if I am wrong - but was Pelosi standing there with a rosary draped over her clasped hands just prior to her “performance”.

 

[30miller]

Is it me, or after nearly 40 pages and over 550 posts are we no further along thean when this thread started?

It’s you.

 

[aloysiusg]

Then please enlighten me Mr Miller, as to what progress has been made, as I can’t seem to find it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

BrotherHRolf,

I wish I could hear you out Brother. I think I could learn a lot from having a conversation with you. I can’t do much, but I will do this. Tell me a your favorite traditional hymn. Then know that somewhere in Pennsylvania this Sunday that hymn will be playing in honor of you.

In charity,
MonFrere

Mon Frere, it’s Hrolf (Norse spelling of Rolf) [long story].

The hymn would be “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”. And thank you! I broke down in tears hearing it sung as a recessional at St. Pat’s. Haven’t sung that at my cathedral parish in 25 years as a chorister. Immaculate Mary, yep! … in May and the roof of the cathedral is raised.

My friend pnewton over yonder in Texas sings more traditional hymns than we do. How about " To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King"? The folks belt that one out too. Or “Praise to the Lord”?
Traditional Catholic hymns. Or “Jesu Dulcis Memoria”.

Some of our younger folks and converts have never heard these. They are prisoners of OCP and GIA who have dominated local Catholic parish music for decades. Forty years ago the Hispanics would have sung in Latin like all the rest of us without having to resort to sacro-salsa.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Qui,
Despite anamchara’s post claiming that “…The clown “Masses” have been explained and proven to be nothing but rubbish…” - I suggest you simply click on the links I gave in my posts 459 and 532. One can certainly say that these are rubbish, but one can just as surely not say that they have been “…explained to be nothing but rubbish…”. Watch for yourself.

I have watched them. That’s what I don’t understand. Are they real Catholics at a real mass or are they those nutty sisters of perpetual help in San Francisco?

 

[Marauder]

Is it me, or after nearly 40 pages and over 550 posts are we no further along thean when this thread started?

Actually most people have dusted off their feet and moved on from this thread or just occasionally checking-in.

As I said much earlier in the thread, if the Pope had a problem with the music at the Mass let him deal with it. That’s his job.

 

[30miller]

Then please enlighten me Mr Miller, as to what progress has been made, as I can’t seem to find it.

I’ll single out benedictgal’s posts for their excellence. I want you to just go back and read them only. If just you, aloysiusg alone, knows more than before you started - that is “progress”. And if you find that you do not know more than before you started - then I am sorry to inform you that you cannot be helped and wish you happy trails.

 

[30miller]

I have watched them. That’s what I don’t understand. Are they real Catholics at a real mass or are they those nutty sisters of perpetual help in San Francisco?

They are real. You must have missed the uproar a few months ago when Bill O’Reilly got a hold of the “San Francisco” one featuring Archbishop Niederhaur and took on the “sisters of perpetual indulgence” homosexuals directly.