Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

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Furthermore, a person beaming with pride when addressing the Holy Father doesn’t necessarily validate their actions. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knelt down and kissed Pope Benedict’s ring during the White House welcoming reception. Her face was beaming, too. Yet, nothing has changed in her politics. She still went to receive Holy Communion despite her pro-abortion stance.
I saw it as beaming with joy, and it was infectious.

np doesn’t even deserve to be discussed anymore. she’s a fool. Did you not see the amusement on the Pope’s face which she swooned all over him to kiss his ring, the symbol for his office, for which she has admitted she has no respect?

President Bush referred to the Pope as our Holy Father, who sit’s in the Chair of Peter. 👍 He and his family showed more respect for the Pope than our Catholic politicians. Maybe he’ll convert when he retires, like Tony Blair. I’m surprised I haven’t seen any flap on that one. Probably I haven’t looked.
Don’t provide me with any links!
 
The music at the Washington, D.C. Mass was more like a multi-cultural tone, since we heard music from various ethnic choirs. In the 2 New York Masses, it was more subdued, since they used traditional music and full orchestra & choir. However, all the Masses featured without question some of the very best music in the sacred repertoire.
By the way, if any of you wish to discuss sacred music of any kind, you should join my Yahoo music group Sacred Music Through the Ages. Please visit this link to learn more:
launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/sacredmusicthroughtheages
 
I have watched them. That’s what I don’t understand. Are they real Catholics at a real mass or are they those nutty sisters of perpetual help in San Francisco?
I just noticed you called them the sisters of perpetual HELP. That is not correct. It is sisters of perpetual INDULGENCE. They are not legitimate religious. They are either transvestite or cross-dressing active homosexuals mocking our Church. There is another video on youtube of them in a real parish hall in SF holding homosexual bingo - where the “lucky” party that calls out “Bingo” gets to choose a gift from among a selection of adult sexual toys. youtube.com/watch?v=i0GxvcJmFM8 Yes, it is real.
 
The music at the Washington, D.C. Mass was more like a multi-cultural tone, since we heard music from various ethnic choirs. In the 2 New York Masses, it was more subdued, since they used traditional music and full orchestra & choir. However, all the Masses featured without question some of the very best music in the sacred repertoire.
By the way, if any of you wish to discuss sacred music of any kind, you should join my Yahoo music group Sacred Music Through the Ages. Please visit this link to learn more:
launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/sacredmusicthroughtheages
Unfortunately, perhaps you’ve missed the point. The Mass is not about celebrating cultural diversity. It is not a musical version of the Tower of Babel. It is supposed to be about adoring God. The music at the DC Mass was not at all sacred and was most disconcerting.
I saw it as beaming with joy, and it was infectious
Of course, qui est ce, that is a natural reaction of just about anyone in the presence of the Holy Father, whether the person is the Metropolitan Archbishop, the President of the United States, the Speaker of the House, you or me. But, an expression of joy doesn’t necessariy validate what we saw and heard at the DC Mass. You need to separate the tww. One has nothing to do with the other.
 
Al -

Some additional info based on what was in my program.
Getting slightly back on topic, here is the list of music sung both before and during the mass, with composers where I could find them…(All -means all choirs sang it, PMC - Papal Mass CHoir, ICC - Intercultural Choir, GC - Gospel Choir, ChC - Children’s Choir, Inst - Instrumental)

Plenty Good Room (All)-------------------------------Snedecor
Send Forth Your Spirit (ChC)-------------------------Wright
Come, O Spirit of God (ICC) ---------------------------Manolo
Gloria Fanfare (Inst) …LeBlanc
I Call Upon You, God---------------------------------Roberts
Halle, Hallelujah--------------------------Trad. Caribbean
Sing Aloud Unto God our Strength (PMC) ------------Nelson
Let’Isikia (ICC)----------------------Trad. Zulu/Arr. McDonnell
Trio on Gloria (Inst)----------------LeBlanc
Lord Make Me An Instrument (GC)------------------St. Francis/Holland
Go Up To The Altar Of God (All) --------------------Chepponis
Ave Verum Corpus (ChC and PMC) -------------------------------Mozart
Yo Danzo Como David (ICC)-----------------Trad. Merengue
Passacaglia on Bonae Voluntatis (Inst)…LeBlanc
Holy Spirit (GC)-------------------Smallwood
Source d’eau Vive (ICC)----------------------Haugel
Spirit of God (PMC) -----------------------------Smith/LeBlanc
Veni Creator Spiritus (ICC)-----------------------9th Century Chant
Humoresque on the Song of the ANgels (Inst)…LeBlanc

Arrival of the Pope
Entrata Festiva (Inst)…Peeters
Tu Es Petrus (ALL)------------------Chant/Antiphonale Monasticum 1934
Concertato On Grosser Gott
Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (All)
Laudate Dominum/Uyai Mose (ICC)
O Spirit All-Embracing (All)--------------------------Holst/Proulx
Ave Maria (PMC)-----------------------------------------Dett
We Are One In The Spirit (ALL, Denyce Graves)…Foster
O Holy Spirit By Whose Breath (All)----------Latona
Kyrie (All) ------------------------------------------------Roberts
Gloria – Mass of the Angels (All) ---------------------Proulx
Lord, Send Out Your Spirit (All) ----------------------Peloquin
Easter Gospel Acclamation (All) ----------------------Luckner
Trilingual Intercessions (All) --------------------------Hay
Let All the World in every Corner Sing (PMC) -------Argento
Ven Espiritu Sancto (ICC)-------------------Cortez
Sanctus - Mass of Creation (All) ----------------------Haugen
Memorial Acclamation – Mass of Creation (All) —Haugen
Amen (All) ---------------------Haugen
The Lord’s Prayer (Chant)
Fraction Rite (All) ---------------------------------------Honoré
Ubi Caritas (Chant) - (All)
Psalm 100 – All the Earth (All) -----------------------Deiss/Proulx
Jesus Is Here Right Now (GC) ------------------------ Roberts
Ubi Caritas (All) ---------------------------------------- Hurd
Bienaventurados (ICC)------------------Montgomery
Pange Lingua (All) -------------------------------------Manolo
My God and My All (All but PMC, I think)-----------------------------Zaragoza
Panis Angelicus (Placido Domingo solo)-------------Frank
Lord, You Give the Great Commision (All)…Rowthorn/.Nestor
Love’s Redeeming Work Is Done (All) -------------Wesley/Ogden

whew! OK, I would ask that those that have issues with the music, please, as gently as possible, tell me which songs disturbed you the most - I just need the names, I don’t need extrapolations on the pain you felt - I understand it was severe. I am going to do my best to try and validate the selections by your standards based on what I can drum up (no pun intended).

Al
BTW, my wife and I were sitting right next to the ICC, down front on the left. We thought the choirs sang well (biased, perhaps, because we knew several people in the PMC and ChC).

There were a couple of pieces that caught my attention, one way or the other:
  • The entrance fanfare seemed thin (although that was outside the Mass).
  • The responsorial psalm was distracting in its atonal texture. Nice piece of music, but it had me thinking more about the composition than the psalm.
  • Hearing 100s of priests intone the Doxology was spine-tingling. This really brought me into focus.
  • The piece with the salsa setting (possibly Bienaventurados) just seemed out of place for a Communion hymn. If I had my druthers, I would’ve switched this with Ave Verum Corpus in the prelude.
  • Panis Angelicus was very emotional and inspiring.
I frankly don’t remember the Gospel Choir Communion hymn that’s gotten so much attention – I think we were focused more on receiving Communion.

That brings up something I’ve noticed – there seems to be a different reaction from those that were present versus those that were viewing on TV. I don’t think I’ve encountered the visceral reaction amongst those in attendance that I have from those that weren’t. Not sure what to make of that.

The event was spectacular – I’ve never been with as many Catholics in one place – yet it was the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we were participating in, to the glory of God!

Mike
 
Well said. The only problem is that “they” “need” to hijack the liturgy for the captive “audiences” it provides “them” (for their performances) - because if “they” tried to present their multicultural celebrations in any other format - e.g. in church halls, community centers, and other voluntary venues - no one would attend. Unfortunately, it’s the same reason some music “ministers” put themselves on their high horses and then assume attitudes about how they are treated at masses - claiming the spotlight and authority that is not really theirs. And they expect the rest of us to just keep quiet and accept everything they decide to do.
Excellant assesment… reminds me of our former “music director”… a non-Catholic… who regularly played the banal, and changed the psalms to the all-inclusive langage.

hhmmmmm

all-inclusive… cultural diversity… what have we stumbled on here?

.
 
In my search for my Benedictine liturgical books, I came across this interesting comment from the former Joseph Cardinal RatIzinger. This comes from Feast of Faith and it addresses the issue of multiculturalism most aptly:
The movement of spiritualization in creation is understood properly as bringing creation into the mode of being of the Holy Spirit and its consequent transformation, exemplified in the crucified and resurrected Christ. In this sense, the taking up of music into the liturgy must be its taking up into the Spirit, a transformation that entails both death and resurrection. ***That is why the Church has had to be critical of ethnic music; it could not be allowed untransformed into the sanctuary. The cultic music of pagan religions has a different status in human existence from the music which glorifies God in creation. Through rhythm and melody themselves, pagan music often endeavors to elicit an ecstasy of the senses, but without elevating the sense into the spirit; on the contrary, it attempts to swallow up the spirit in the senses as a means of release. This imbalance toward the senses recurs also in modern popular music: the “God” found here, the salvation of man identified here, is quite different from the God of the Christian faith. ***
I would submit to you that the multi-cultural dimemension certainly fit the description in the Holy Father’s book rather well. The glass slipper could not have fit Cindereall more perfectly than this description.
 
Is it me, or after nearly 40 pages and over 550 posts are we no further along thean when this thread started?
Marauder;3604182:
Actually most people have dusted off their feet and moved on from this thread or just occasionally checking-in.
I was one who dusted of my feet, but then became enlightened by the insight of Mr. Miller and Mon Frere on their posts yesterday. I’m glad I came back.
As I said much earlier in the thread, if the Pope had a problem with the music at the Mass let him deal with it. That’s his job.
Yes. I’m glad to read about the opinions of the music, but I hate bishop bashing. I hate second guessing the Pope. That’s what Martin Luther did. 😦
 
I was one who dusted of my feet, but then became enlightened by the insight of Mr. Miller and Mon Frere on their posts yesterday. I’m glad I came back.
Yes. I’m glad to read about the opinions of the music, but I hate bishop bashing. I hate second guessing the Pope. That’s what Martin Luther did. 😦
No one is second-guessing the Pope. Comparing the defense of legitimate, sacred music to Martin Luther is one of the most far-fetched statements I’ve ever read.

I would suggest that perhaps you read the Holy Father’s words on Sacred Music, most recently his remarks that I had quoted a few pages back when he celebrated Mass at St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna. After that, contrast his words with what transpired at Nationals Stadium.

The problem is that many people will opine, but, some will not take the time to read the Holy Father’s words for themselves, and make an objective comparison.

Furthermore, history is replete with the faithful in legitimate disagreement with their bishops. St. Catherine of Sienna disagreed with the Holy Father and pretty much read him the riot act and got him to return to Rome.

The bishop is the chief steward of the liturgical life of his diocese because he is the High Priest of his territory. It is incumbent on him to ensure that the Mass is celebrated properly under what is prescribed by the Church. Even Redemptionis Sacramentum notes that if the bishop does not respond to a petition by the faithful, they have the right to take their concerns directly to the Apostolic See. Is that bishop-bashing? I think not.
 
I have watched them. That’s what I don’t understand. Are they real Catholics at a real mass or are they those nutty sisters of perpetual help in San Francisco?
In 1987 I sang for the 25th anniversary of our diocese. I watched as leotard clad/diaphonous skirted women wafted bowls of incense in the entrance processional. I had a hard time picking my jaw off the floor. Later I sang for the anniversary of one of our local orders of nuns. Not only did we have the leotard clad/diaphonous gowned women wafting incense all over the place, we had others with 10’ tall banners with ribbons hanging down running up and down the aisles twirling the banners.

These are just the two most egregious examples. There are others. I refuse to sing at diocesan events. Most of my brothers and sisters of the choir also refuse. To the point where the diocese is advertising for a volunteer choir.

The MP was “acknowledged” in my diocese. We are the seat of state government and I am a state employee. “Acknowledged” in bureaucrateese means " OK I heard you but I’m not going to do a bloomin’ thing about it".

Think about it. An entire cathedral choir opts out because of what goes on.
 
Of course, qui est ce, that is a natural reaction of just about anyone in the presence of the Holy Father, whether the person is the Metropolitan Archbishop, the President of the United States, the Speaker of the House, you or me. But, an expression of joy doesn’t necessariy validate what we saw and heard at the DC Mass. You need to separate the tww. One has nothing to do with the other.
You are right, but you were talking about people opining, and I interpreted your opine that Archbishop Wuerl was beaming with pride as a negative. My bad.:o

What I am beginning to realize, living in a diocese headed by Archbishop Raymond Burke, is that I’m not exposed to much liturgical abuse. There are the nun’s “ordination” etc. But they are nuts and are not a threat here. My daughter sang in Archdiocesan choir, so whereever they went to sing, it always Sacred music - LA, New, Los Angeles, St. Peter’s for the Pope in 2005. Our former choir director did some stupid stuff with music and ribbon dancers, but she was quickly stopped, and has since resigned. So my position was that there are some nuts out there, who cares. I thought you and 30miller were sedevists (or whatever you call them). I’m glad I stuck with the thread. I didn’t realize how prevelant and insidious this infection was.

Off Topic here. My daughter attends a “Catholic” girl’s high school run by priest wanna-be’s. In her “religion” class, they pray to the “God of our understanding.” When the girls went to take their ACT’s, the counselor sent them “positive thoughts and energy.” Again, I thought they were isolated nuts, and she is getting an excellent education. Yet, my daughter, who claims not to believe in religion, (you know how rebelliousness to religion is so unique to their age) is extremely irritated by the PCness of her religioun teacher and the “Our Mother who art in Heaven.” She sees it as disingenuous that the school claims to be Catholic, yet is afraid to act Catholic for fear of disrupting political correctness. Also, the school prides itself on celebrating “diversity.” Oh yea, a lot of innercity blacks and mexicans attend a $10,000.00/year Catholic Girls school in an affluent suburb! (PS, we don’t live in that suburb, and my daughter cleans the school to help pay her tuition). Both my kids end up defending the teachings of the Church which they claim not to believe in! (still praying the St. Monica’s prayer and putting myself in God’s time).

I guess my point is, I finally get what you’re getting at, so I’m glad I stuck around.

People are crying for orthodoxy, and Pope Benedict is bringing us around. He is not doing it with a hammer. I think he will be extremely effective. Since Archbishop Burke was installed, the number of seminarians has increased such that this year the seminary is full and we had to add on. Compare to a few years ago when there was no ordination in the diocese one year, and one or two in other years.
 
Since Archbishop Burke was installed, the number of seminarians has increased such that this year the seminary is full and we had to add on. Compare to a few years ago when there was no ordination in the diocese one year, and one or two in other years.
The Show-Me State is very lucky to have Archbishop Burke guarding its front door (in St. Louis) and Bishop Finn guarding the back (in Kansas City).
 
The hymn would be “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”. And thank you! 😃 I broke down in tears hearing it sung as a recessional at St. Pat’s. Haven’t sung that at my cathedral parish in 25 years as a chorister. Immaculate Mary, yep! … in May and the roof of the cathedral is raised.
.
brotherhrolf - you will be happy to know (at least I think you will be) that we sang “Holy God, We praise Thy Name” as the Pope was circling around the field at the DC Mass.

milath - thanks for filling in the blanks for me (Post #580) - I am still waiting for someone to specify an exact song that was problematic so I may discertain the reasoning/justification behind its inclusion.
 
Yes, I can’t help but be happy. BTW I am a member of the graduation class of the 100th and last year of my Catholic high school in New Orleans - St. Aloysius. When our young folks and converts rail against me they need to think about what it would be like to have gone to a Catholic school that had 100 years of tradition behind it… Perhaps they would not be so facile in their understanding of my discomfort. Bill O’Reilly gives me great joy. He is repeating the same vocabularly lessons I learned at St. Aloysius. That was what it was like to grown up in the 60s as a Catholic.:rotfl:
 
Mon Frere, it’s Hrolf (Norse spelling of Rolf) [long story].

The hymn would be “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”. And thank you! 😃 I broke down in tears hearing it sung as a recessional at St. Pat’s. Haven’t sung that at my cathedral parish in 25 years as a chorister. Immaculate Mary, yep! … in May and the roof of the cathedral is raised.
Hrolf,

You’ve got it brother. This week our parish will sing “Holy God” as our recessional. And you can count in May we will sing Immaculate Mary. Through May we try to sing a hymn to Our Lady each Sunday. But this week this Italian will be thinking about you! God Bless!

Oh yes. My story. My dad took lot of heat for the mistake of being born Italian and often men would call him a “damn dago”. My dad would just look right back at them and exclaim – At least I know what I am!!

MonFrere
 
Qui,
Despite anamchara’s post claiming that “…The clown “Masses” have been explained and proven to be nothing but rubbish…” - I suggest you simply click on the links I gave in my posts 459 and 532. One can certainly say that these are rubbish, but one can just as surely not say that they have been “…explained to be nothing but rubbish…”. Watch for yourself.
Well, what a few people have posted on this topic on CAF is that the clown mass actually took place for clowns where were working and were Catholic. It was a valid reverent Mass for the workers. Someone on here had attended it and verified it. And the other explanation that has been given is that a claim of a clown Mass was found out to not even be a Catholic Church.

So at least we know there are Catholic clowns still attending Mass 😉

I think many like to use it as proof of abuses but we don’t really need to do that. If someones priest is not following the GIRM or Rubrics then there’s always someone in the parish that will speak up. At least that’s been my experience in reading post on CAF over the years. 🤷

Of course this is just what I’ve read on here 🙂
 
The movement of spiritualization in creation is understood properly as bringing creation into the mode of being of the Holy Spirit and its consequent transformation, exemplified in the crucified and resurrected Christ. In this sense, the taking up of music into the liturgy must be its taking up into the Spirit, a transformation that entails both death and resurrection. That is why the Church has had to be critical of ethnic music; it could not be allowed untransformed into the sanctuary. The cultic music of pagan religions has a different status in human existence from the music which glorifies God in creation. Through rhythm and melody themselves, pagan music often endeavors to elicit an ecstasy of the senses, but without elevating the sense into the spirit; on the contrary, it attempts to swallow up the spirit in the senses as a means of release. This imbalance toward the senses recurs also in modern popular music: the “God” found here, the salvation of man identified here, is quite different from the God of the Christian faith.
Benedictgal,

“pagan music often endeavors to elicit an ecstasy of the senses”

I think this is the key to the Holy Father’s issue with “cultic music”. The key word is “ecstasy” - not “senses”. In other words Catholic worship isn’t aescetic in that it ignores all things sensual. This goes to the other extreme often promoted by Greek philosophers. Look at a Catholic Church compared to a Protestant Church. A Catholic Church is very visual. It’s doesn’t ignore the stimulation of any of the emotions – even taste. What the Holy Father is pointing out is that excess stimulation of the senses is to be deplored; but the Catholic Mass itself tells us that stimulation of the senses is a part of the worship.

Again, the issue I have with you is that you put so much weight in what you read that you ignore the reality of what you see. IF the Holy Father is seeing the D.C. mass as you do – then he needs to make a dramatic intervention. However, this Mass was vetted – very aptly demonstrated by other posters quotes. It was approved. THEREFORE – your interpretation of the Holy Father’s words ARE NOT HIS.

I’m not so dumb as to see how one could take your interpretation via the Holy Father’s words ALONE. But through what I see and how the Church and the Vatican has acted in real live situations that “seemed” to go counter to their words I can only come to the conclusion that your interpretation is wrong.

My mom reads Jeremiah 10: and is absolutely convinced that this refers to a Christmas tree.
(Jer 10:1-5 ) Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
There are certainly similarities but research destroys this idea. The printed word “alone” CANNOT be taken as “the law” . This is the Protestant error.

If the Pope says Christians shouldn’t eat hot dogs and I see Bishop Wuerl giving the pope a hot dog and he smiles and eats it. I’ve got to think that I’m missing some of the facts.

MonFrere
 
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