Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

[MonFrere]

The Mass is not a time for entertainment, it is our acknowledging Jesus dying for us at his crucifixtion, and celebrating his rising from the dead.

I didn’t mention a word about entertainment at the Mass. To western ears African percussion instruments are NEVER used in liturgical music so EVERY time a western person listens to African percussion instruments there is NEVER an association with the sacred. However, to a person born in Africa this is entirely different. Don’t apply western standards to African cultures. The Church is more culturally sensitive than we give them credit.

Pope Benedict’s message is the return to a much more reverent Mass, how are you missing what he is telling us? :banghead:

Yes, and I pray for him often. However, I think his comments need to be taken in a within a cultural context. Western culture isn’t universal. The Japanese are doing marvelously well with it and I’m pleased. South American countries have made great contributions to western classical music, but I think Catholic influence has been the major reason. NOW – I WILL say that Americans using drums and bongos imitating African sacred music would go against the thought behind Pope Benedict’s admonitions – but I really don’t think they would be against his admonitions living in non western cultures. AND in America we have a diversity of culture - so, a diversity of liturgical tradition SHOULD, nay MUST be reflected. Is an African’s pray less reverant to God than an German or an Italian? Nor should their liturgical (musical)prayer.

MonFrere

 

[MonFrere]

The Mass is the Mass, … It is not a venue for fitting in what is pleasing to one’s culture, it is a time for us to come to Jesus and Celebrate The Eucharist.

If this were true then why not just do away with music all together since it’s so divisive and just recite the Kyrie, Gloria, Alleluia, Sanctus, etc. This is what we do in daily morning Mass. Then we wouldn’t be having all these irritating discussions. Jesus is still celebrated. Yes? No?

MonFrere

 

[qubica]

You’re a thoughtful person MonFrere, and I think this Pope has requested a reintroduction of Latin and chant so that the music at the Mass will be more universal, using the language of the church.
Also, following more closely the rubrics for music, which prefer the use of Antiphons that are tied DIRECTLY to the liturgical/scriptural theme of any particular Mass.

What we forget sometimes is that there is beautiful, reverent music that has been written in all cultures. It is what would be considered more ‘classical’ in most areas. But somehow, we Americans seem to take the ‘tourist’ appproach to music from other cultures. So instead of using a beautiful organ hymn written by someone from let’s say Jamaica - we opt for Jamaican songs with cheesy keyboard steel drums and maracas. Pass the margaritas!

 

[peacelight]

Consider and comtemplate on this guys. God Bless.:angel1:

Jesus did not accept the opinions of men, as shown in Matthew 16:13-17:

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.”

See? His disciples mostly expressed personal opinions, which meant little to Jesus.
The one exception was Simon Peter, the only one who answered with doctrinal truth.

 

[aloysiusg]

I thought you all might be interested in this, if you haven’t seen it already:

usccb.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/participant-profile-behind-the-music/

It basically talks about the different composers and selections of music used at the masses, including many of the pieces used at the DC mass which have caused such consternation. It seems that each of the people involved were very proud and honored at being given a chance to produce music for this mass, and did so with the most honest of intentions. Maybe that can shed some more perspective on all of this. Praise be to God!

Al

 

[Nordar]

Oh, but the irony is priceless!

Oh the mistaken assumtions

 

[MonFrere]

What we forget sometimes is that there is beautiful, reverent music that has been written in all cultures. It is what would be considered more ‘classical’ in most areas. But somehow, we Americans seem to take the ‘tourist’ appproach to music from other cultures. So instead of using a beautiful organ hymn written by someone from let’s say Jamaica - we opt for Jamaican songs with cheesy keyboard steel drums and maracas. Pass the margaritas!

I think we’re on the same page qubica. I certainly understand the points others raise concerning Pope Benedict’s admonitions for the liturgy. Anything he says - I will certainly follow. But I also know the Church is more open to other cultures than is admitted to by some in the U.S. as witnessed by the comments on this thread. I think their hearts are in the right place; but their knowledge is incomplete.

I was a music director of a Catholic parish and the old director had the children sing this terrible arrangement of an alleluia “based upon” a Jamacian folk song. I hated it and did my best not to play it. There were complaints but luckily on this issue the priest agreed with me. It’s like an italian trying to do chinese cuisine – everything isn’t enhanced by tomato sauce!! You don’t put melted mozzerella on goo goo gai pan!

Our liturgical musicians need to be educated in western musical tradition not in country western giitar pickin’. I don’t think many church musicians even know there was a man named Palestrina - let alone have studied his counterpoint. So I indeed agree with Pope Benedict that Catholics living in western civilizations need to give proper attention to our cultural roots but living in America today with all its ethnic and cultural diversity needs to give proper attention to the sensitivities to different expressions of worship. America needs to do a much better job of this so we don’t alienate other groups of people as we did with African - and Jewish - and Irish - and Italian immigrants.

MonFrere

 

[HOEFP]

My wife and I were truly spiritually moved to celebrate the eucharist with the Holy Father and the Bishops of the USA.

The music was a travesty!!! to put it mildly. This was the celebration of a Roman Catholic Mass, not a cultural gathering.
It was also celebrated in the United States, our language is English. I thought that Mass was to be recited in the vernacular???

I know that the Pope has been working on bringing back some of the ritual traditions of the Roman Mass. This had to have incensed him. I am sure that the Archbishop Wuerl was scolded by Pope Benedict.

Please God help us.

 

[aloysiusg]

To all those who say that the Pope was offended by the music of the DC Mass (btw, I have read other reviews which expressed no such witness of displeasure, but anyway):

If no rebuke comes the way of Archbishop Wuerl or the organizers/directors of the DC liturgy, will you take that as a sign that the Pope wasn’t truly offended by the music, or as something else?

Just curious,
Al

 

[Michael_Neal]

the rebuke would unlikely be public so I am not sure if we will ever know

 

[aloysiusg]

Fair enough - but if nothing comes out, then you have no real argument to say that your hypothesis is correct, true?

 

[Marauder]

If no rebuke comes the way of Archbishop Wuerl or the organizers/directors of the DC liturgy, will you take that as a sign that the Pope wasn’t truly offended by the music, or as something else?

I would bet that if the Pope came out (although I doubt he would) and said how lovely the music was at the DC stadium people would say that he was saying that just for church unity or he didn’t want them left out or some other conspiracy theory.

 

[HOEFP]

I actually believe that a rebuke would not have been immediate to detract from the occasion. But, from what I have been following, Pope Benedict could not have been happy and would not condone the music. He recently replaced his own head of Liturgical music at the Vatican because he was upset with the lack of traditional Gregorian chants.

It was most upsetting.

 

[Margarite]

I agree with you, Ana. I turned it on during the offertory…I wasn’t impressed. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, not a multi-cultural concert.

There were times I felt sorry for the poor Pope, as well…then I realized this is the kind of stuff we all have to listen to (on a less grand scale!), so maybe he will empathize with us!!!

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
GREAT POINT!!!
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[qubica]

Fair enough - but if nothing comes out, then you have no real argument to say that your hypothesis is correct, true?

Aloysius, I think it is mistaken to take the approach of assuming that the Holy Father was upset at the DC Mass. You are correct.

But most of the arguments here are based on what the Holy Father (and others) have written or verbally expressed in terms of Liturgy and specifically sacred music in the liturgy.

My question to you: Do you think that any of us has a valid argument in expressing displeasure in the choice of material (not how it was performed) for the Holy sacrifice of the Mass?

We can all look at both the DC and NY Masses and know, for certain, that the Holy Father would prefer the NY Mass based on his explicit writings on the subject. And for me it is above mere ‘opinion’ that the sense of sacred, and solemnity MUST be returned to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Unfortunately, I know human nature is subjective about everything. So there are many who would say that guitars, tambourines, and hand clapping is THE most sacred and solemn expression in our worship of God during the Holy Sacrifice. I can point to plenty of Church documents that say otherwise, but unless one is open to being persuaded by logic, it can seem futile to educate parishioners on something as subjective as taste in music!

BTW - I REALLY appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut on this, as you were a first hand witness/participant. I enjoy hearing your take on why it doesn’t bother you. God be with you.

 

[aloysiusg]

I just received this from the Papal Mass CHoir Director, fyi:

(Archbishop Wuerl) mentioned that the Pope gave him very positive reactions to the liturgy on two occasions after the Mass that day. And the Papal Master of Ceremonies, who travels with the Holy Father, was specific about the beauty and prayerfulness of the Liturgy as well.

If you watched EWTN this weekend or recorded their coverage of the Mass, you may have heard some negative comments by the anchor and his priest commentator… They were not present for the liturgy physically, but EWTN’s on-site commentator, Joan Lewis, who was actually at the stadium, was ecstatic about the music and wasn’t afraid to say so.

just food for thought.
Al

 

[MonFrere]

For all you purists out there. In a homily there is supposed to be commentary on the scriptures. It is not to be used as a time to make points outside the liturgical texts for the day. I wonder if Bishops Wuerl and Egan took the Pope aside and told him they didn’t appreciate this departure from the liturgical norms. I mean if the Pope himself doesn’t follow liturgical norms how can it be expected that the liturgical musicians submit themselves to what the Pope has clearly written in his admonitions. … of course I speak facetiously.

There are certainly occasions where a relaxation of liturgical norms would be expected – a Papal Mass certainly would be one. I appreciate the comment of aloysiusg the reflected the exact opposite - the Pope was appreciative of the D.C. liturgy. I also read aloysiusg’s link of the musicians that prepared the musical selections for the D.C. liturgy. I found it very enlightening. HOWEVER, I think the multicultural aspects of the liturgical selections were completely justified. I really think most U.S. Catholics are myopic. They cannot grasp the ramifications of a worldwide Catholic Church. I’m a college trained musician. I’m absolutely in love with western music and western musical tradition. My CD collection runs the gamut from Gregorian Chant to Gorecki. Having studied and lived and breathed as well as performed this music all my life I can look at other cultures and also see in their music absolutely wonderful musical expression. African music also has a warmth and humanity and an ear for sound and rhythm that is reflective of the greatness of its people. Our Church speaks with great eloquence of the dignity the human family so it pains me to see how that message is at this time just a platitude that hasn’t taken root in our thinking and behavior in appreciation of people unlike ourself. It seems as if all some people can do is say — O my goodness DRUMS - certain liturgical abuse. If we would just take some time to appreciate cultures other than our own, see their commitment to holiness (there are a good number of African priests serving in America due to our shortage), see how they too seek the sacred in all they do, then we wouldn’t be so quick to judge people different than ourselves. Bishop Wuerl was Bishop of Pittsburgh where I live. I read his writings in our local diocesan newspaper and found him to be a highly cultured and intelligent man. Many of our bishops are men of such calibre. I think when they make decisions that go against our little learning we too quickly judge them as being “liberal” or outside the realm of orthodoxy - when in truth, they are just the opposite – they are acting out of the patrimony of 2000 years of Church experience. So, I can easily see how Pope Benedict would show his appreciation to Bishop Wuerl.

BTW – I thought Pope Benedicts homily at St. Patricks gave us a glimmer as to how he probably presents his average homilies in taking the scriptures and weaving them into a great message for the laity. It was certainly a master class for all homilists.

MonFrere

 

[mom_of_ten]

Would you be able to tell us where we might read or hear Joan Lewis saying she was ecstatic about the music? I ask, because when she was questioned about it on live TV (by Raymond Aroyo) she seemed VERY taken off-guard and uncomfortable…using carefully chosen adjectives like “multi-cultural…and interesting”…and when asked what she thought the Pope would think of it, she again stuttered a bit…and said something to the effect of “we’ll just have to wait and see”.

So, I’d be interested in reading or hearing from her directly that she was ecstatic about the music. Your source?

 

[mom_of_ten]

I just received this from the Papal Mass CHoir Director, fyi:

(Archbishop Wuerl) mentioned that the Pope gave him very positive reactions to the liturgy on two occasions after the Mass that day. And the Papal Master of Ceremonies, who travels with the Holy Father, was specific about the beauty and prayerfulness of the Liturgy as well.
Al

It doesn’t surprise me that the Pope would give positive reactions to the Liturgy; or that the PMOC would compliment the beauty and prayerfulness at the Liturgy…I believe we ALL saw that…notice neither the Pope nor the PMOC mentioned MUSIC…

 

[aloysiusg]

mom of ten - I only have what was passed on to me, which I passed on to you. I have no reason, however, to doubt its authenticity.

I do think that some people may be reluctant to grasp the idea that the music was not the abomination some thought it was. I can understand completely how some would not like it - it is very different from chant and other “traditional” Catholic liturgical music - but that does not mean, relative to the culture from which it comes, then it is any less reverent. To assume otherwise would seem to me to be somewhat shortsighted.