Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

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But that’s not to say I am thereby granted a moral right to simply invent my own theology or moral disciplines.
We are not in disagreement then. My reaction is not the reaction that I recommend to anyone … in fact, my message would be keep the faith even though what you observe seems unreasonable in the light of faith. My only point is that there is a teaching duty required of those with teaching authority … and negligence is loss of religion and eventual loss of religious freedom.
 
We are not in disagreement then. My reaction is not the reaction that I recommend to anyone … in fact, my message would be keep the faith even though what you observe seems unreasonable in the light of faith. My only point is that there is a teaching duty required of those with teaching authority … and negligence is loss of religion and eventual loss of religious freedom.
I could not possibly agree more.
 
Brother, I am denying nothing. I am not going to try and justify the division either.

My previous post was as nice as I could say, I’m not going to participate in these discussions, that amount to the very infighting causing the hurt, and disappointment I feel. Even if we lose one, I am saddened over it and will not call for it, hope for it, or express jubilation over it.

Prayers, please…
I’d rather have you and everyone else say something than not say it for worrying about it being a perfect act.

Practice makes perfect.

That’s how I post.

I think you’re pretty okay and polite in your discourse.
 
Religious liberty is a human, civil and natural right that is not conferred by the state, he said, adding “religious freedom is the exercise of fidelity to God and his Holy Church without compromise.” “What God has given, the servant state does not have the competence to remove,” Archbishop Vigano affirmed.
Am I understanding this correctly? The State does not have the right nor competency to regulate religious beliefs. The part about “religious freedom is the exercise of fidelity to God and his Holy Church without compromise” suggests the authority of the Church to step in to override laws that prevent church members from complying with the exercise of Catholicism.
 
One could say that I didn’t leave the church but, the church left me (actually, I never stopped attending Sunday Mass, but I did stop receiving the Holy Eucharist).
May I ask why you stopped receiving the Eucharist? There is nothing here that leads me to believe you should have (?)
 
May I ask why you stopped receiving the Eucharist? There is nothing here that leads me to believe you should have (?)
Go to Sunday Mass religiously for years, watch near 100% receive the Holy Eucharist, know priests receive daily … then surprise, surprise … did you know that moms kill their kids @ 1 million per year … only 4 million are born per year … yeah, it’s been going on for years … NOT A WORD FROM THE PULPIT … NOT A PRAYER FROM THE ALTAR … now, I’m looking … was it me? … did I sleep thru too many sermons? … let’s go to other parishes to see what they do at Sunday Mass … nope, not an issue there … let’s talk to Catholic friends who attend Sunday Mass and receive regularly … blank stare … not a prayer. Sorry, when I take off my Catholic team pride shirt at night, I’m left with the sneaking feeling that maybe, just maybe, the bread & wine is just bread & wine. Even Lassie, when Timmy falls down a well, barks his head off.

I had a religious experience that put me back on track … which I will not go into here. But I will say that no bishop, no priest, no family member, no Catholic friend could have put me back on track with empty “lip service”. To this day, the empirical evidence suggests that the Real Presence is not there … when I observe a dearth of prayer petitions on behalf of the sanctity of life at Sunday Mass … and near 100% reception of the Holy Eucharist …
 
I will take your point under consideration. Making hasty, rash judgements is sinful and uncharitable and if I have done so, I apologize.

You must admit though, there was a lot of cheerleading for Romney, a man whose pro life bona fides I consider extremely questionable and a lot of venom directed at those who voted for Obama.

When the only realistic alternative to Obama is Romney, whose election promised to bring more war, economic exploitation, and yes, a continuation of abortion on demand and homosexual rights, how is is possible to condemn an ordinary Catholic who may have voted for Obama thinking his economic life would improve and suspecting that the Church’s social agenda would not be implemented?

Condemning “pro-choice” Catholic politicians is one thing. Condemning Catholic voters given the bleak alternatives is quite another.
I for one was never a cheerleader, I did push very hard against Obama, rightfully so. I am a republican, only because the democrat party support of intrinsic evils dronve me out. I am the first republican on my mother’s and father’s sides; except my sister who registered rep y mistake in high school… She did not make mom happy!

I will continue to push against any democrat until the party changes its platform of evil. If the republican party changes its stances to accept evil, I will register independant. I may do that now anyway, they cannot put up a candidate that will say once and for all, abortion is wrong always and I will make all abortion illegal! Thats what I want to hear.👍
 
I will take your point under consideration. Making hasty, rash judgements is sinful and uncharitable and if I have done so, I apologize.

You must admit though, there was a lot of cheerleading for Romney, a man whose pro life bona fides I consider extremely questionable and a lot of venom directed at those who voted for Obama.

When the only realistic alternative to Obama is Romney, whose election promised to bring more war, economic exploitation, and yes, a continuation of abortion on demand and homosexual rights, how is is possible to condemn an ordinary Catholic who may have voted for Obama thinking his economic life would improve and suspecting that the Church’s social agenda would not be implemented?

Condemning “pro-choice” Catholic politicians is one thing. Condemning Catholic voters given the bleak alternatives is quite another.
I don’t condemn, I know in Wisconsin, Planned Parenthood has been defunded, this a favorite cause of the Democrat Party, Planned Parenthood is the Nation’s biggest abortion provider, South to Illinois is Obama’s state, in the past few months, another woman died at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

I believe Romney Ryan would have attempted and may have been successful in getting Planned Parenthood defunded on a national level. We can remember the budget battle a few years ago where the Democrats held up the Budget reconciliation at the cost of even military soldiers being paid so Planned Parenthood could be included.

So you say things would have continued the same but I am not sure. But I don’t condemn, it just seems to be realistic to say, if you voted for Obama, one is aiding in supporting abortion, pure and simple. Let alone, that he is a man who voted for infanticide some 3 or 4 times in Illinois.

But thank goodness for Scott Walker! 👍
 
Go to Sunday Mass religiously for years, watch near 100% receive the Holy Eucharist, know priests receive daily … then surprise, surprise … did you know that moms kill their kids @ 1 million per year … only 4 million are born per year … yeah, it’s been going on for years … NOT A WORD FROM THE PULPIT … NOT A PRAYER FROM THE ALTAR … now, I’m looking … was it me? … did I sleep thru too many sermons? … let’s go to other parishes to see what they do at Sunday Mass … nope, not an issue there … let’s talk to Catholic friends who attend Sunday Mass and receive regularly … blank stare … not a prayer. Sorry, when I take off my Catholic team pride shirt at night, I’m left with the sneaking feeling that maybe, just maybe, the bread & wine is just bread & wine. Even Lassie, when Timmy falls down a well, barks his head off.

I had a religious experience that put me back on track … which I will not go into here. But I will say that no bishop, no priest, no family member, no Catholic friend could have put me back on track with empty “lip service”. To this day, the empirical evidence suggests that the Real Presence is not there … when I observe a dearth of prayer petitions on behalf of the sanctity of life at Sunday Mass … and near 100% reception of the Holy Eucharist …
👍

Cheers on this Thanksgiving eve for this.
 
Go to Sunday Mass religiously for years, watch near 100% receive the Holy Eucharist, know priests receive daily … then surprise, surprise … did you know that moms kill their kids @ 1 million per year … only 4 million are born per year … yeah, it’s been going on for years … NOT A WORD FROM THE PULPIT … NOT A PRAYER FROM THE ALTAR … now, I’m looking … was it me? … did I sleep thru too many sermons? … let’s go to other parishes to see what they do at Sunday Mass … nope, not an issue there … let’s talk to Catholic friends who attend Sunday Mass and receive regularly … blank stare … not a prayer. Sorry, when I take off my Catholic team pride shirt at night, I’m left with the sneaking feeling that maybe, just maybe, the bread & wine is just bread & wine. Even Lassie, when Timmy falls down a well, barks his head off.

I had a religious experience that put me back on track … which I will not go into here. But I will say that no bishop, no priest, no family member, no Catholic friend could have put me back on track with empty “lip service”. To this day, the empirical evidence suggests that the Real Presence is not there … when I observe a dearth of prayer petitions on behalf of the sanctity of life at Sunday Mass … and near 100% reception of the Holy Eucharist …
You hear about the evils of abortion from the pulpit at St. Joseph in Chauvin La. where I am. You hear it from me and my pastor, every homily will at least touch on the evils, some homilies are totally on the intrinsic evils which this country has adopted.

As far as the RP and receiving, I can’t make you believe, only His Spirit can do that, all I will say is seek the truth and you will find it! He revealed it to me about 8 years ago while I was just beginning formation; I doubted the RP just as you do. Challenge God to show you, beg Him in humility and obedience to share this with you.
 
And yet, isn’t that the whole point of our observation of the Papal Nuncio’s message? Is not the Papal Nuncio demonizing (that is, asserting objectively that one is doing the devil’s work) those elements within the Church that are siding with intrinsic evil? Hasn’t he said that he laments the scandal of those who publicly support a major political party that espouses as basic principles a platform of intrinsic evils?
That is most definitely not the Archbishop’s point. Where exactly does he call individuals–individuals–satanists? (An “element” is not a human being.) He is not singling out me or you and calling us mortal sinners, on their way to the infernal regions. He is correct to lament, yet he does not condemn, those who publicly endorse abortion. No one, save the Lord, has the authority to condemn. If there are those who seek to condemn, they should take a look back at the Inquisition, or further back to John 8:7.
 
.

Thanks to the prolife movement, thanks to governors like Scott Walker and other state governments that have defunded planned parenthood, the nation’s biggest abortion provider and pet favorite of the democrats.

Let’s not forget, Life Site News/Life News have reported 173 abortion clinics have been closed down.

Oh, let’s see your logic! The Democrats take the credit.

Also, clearly the Pro Life movement would be most responsible since they can cite figures of the majority of Americans via polls being pro life versus in the past.
 
.Also, clearly the Pro Life movement would be most responsible since they can cite figures of the majority of Americans via polls being pro life versus in the past.
I expect that may continue. People who are pro-abortion will pass that philosophy on to their children. Those children will pass it on to their children. The pro-abortion group will be more likely to have abortions…and so there will be less children to pass this on.

The inverse would be true of the pro-life movement. And so…in theory…the pro-abortion group will cause themselves to be exctinct.
 
I expect that may continue. People who are pro-abortion will pass that philosophy on to their children. Those children will pass it on to their children. The pro-abortion group will be more likely to have abortions…and so there will be less children to pass this on.

The inverse would be true of the pro-life movement. And so…in theory…the pro-abortion group will cause themselves to be exctinct.
Also good reading can be found here:

thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2008/11/12/abortion-rates-under-clinton-and-bush/

factcheck.org/society/the_biography_of_a_bad_statistic.html
 
Where exactly does he call individuals–individuals–satanists?
He doesn’t, of course. But his wording does denounce the “intentional” actions of those who are working against Church teachings. And, that is ascribing intent.
He cited Catholics’ duties to be disciples of Christ, not elements of a political or secular ideology. He lamented the fact that many Catholics are publicly supporting “a major political party” that has “intrinsic evils among its basic principles.”
“There is a divisive strategy at work here, an intentional dividing of the Church; through this strategy, the body of the Church is weakened, and thus the Church can be more easily persecuted,” the nuncio said. Archbishop Vigano observed that some influential Catholic public officials and university professors are allied with forces opposed to the Church’s fundamental moral teachings on “critical issues” like abortion, population control, the redefinition of marriage, embryonic stem cell research and “problematic adoptions.” He said it is a “grave and major problem” when self-professed Catholic faculty at Catholic institutions are the sources of teachings that conflict with Church teaching on important policy issues rather than defend it.
Sounds like devilry to me.
 
He doesn’t, of course. But his wording does denounce the “intentional” actions of those who are working against Church teachings. And, that is ascribing intent.

Sounds like devilry to me.
Good. We agree on something: he does not condemn individuals. Next question: where is it written that the anti-Obama forces, including the Archbishop, have been given the authority—which can only come from God—to condemn?
 
Go to Sunday Mass religiously for years, watch near 100% receive the Holy Eucharist, know priests receive daily … then surprise, surprise … did you know that moms kill their kids @ 1 million per year … only 4 million are born per year … yeah, it’s been going on for years … NOT A WORD FROM THE PULPIT … NOT A PRAYER FROM THE ALTAR … now, I’m looking … was it me? … did I sleep thru too many sermons? … let’s go to other parishes to see what they do at Sunday Mass … nope, not an issue there … let’s talk to Catholic friends who attend Sunday Mass and receive regularly … blank stare … not a prayer. Sorry, when I take off my Catholic team pride shirt at night, I’m left with the sneaking feeling that maybe, just maybe, the bread & wine is just bread & wine. Even Lassie, when Timmy falls down a well, barks his head off.

I had a religious experience that put me back on track … which I will not go into here. But I will say that no bishop, no priest, no family member, no Catholic friend could have put me back on track with empty “lip service”. To this day, the empirical evidence suggests that the Real Presence is not there … when I observe a dearth of prayer petitions on behalf of the sanctity of life at Sunday Mass … and near 100% reception of the Holy Eucharist …
I completely get where you are coming from as I once walked out of mass because of my feelings about a particular priest and how he was handling mass (and therefore questioned the Real Presence at that particular mass). I have since confessed this. I certainly take issue with a number of “liberal” priests in our Church for sure. Come to think of it, it makes me wonder whether you live in southern California…lol.

However, I think we must remember that consecration is not dependent on the worthiness of th priests who confect it. If that were the case, the Church never would have had the Real Presence. The Roman Catholic priesthood is Christ’s priesthood…He will not abandon it.
 
That is most definitely not the Archbishop’s point. Where exactly does he call individuals–individuals–satanists? (An “element” is not a human being.) He is not singling out me or you and calling us mortal sinners, on their way to the infernal regions. He is correct to lament, yet he does not condemn, those who publicly endorse abortion. No one, save the Lord, has the authority to condemn. If there are those who seek to condemn, they should take a look back at the Inquisition, or further back to John 8:7.
Once again we’re getting confused between condemning a person and his/her actions. The Archbishop is talking about actions.
 
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