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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
That could be very well why he is teaching conversions of the heart and to evangelize now.
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Mickey
Guest
Sure…a smaller Church consisting of the devout and faithful…evangelizing and re-evangelizing new and lost generations.
Only Christ can change hearts…and evangelization is a never ending commission.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Good points. We are not to give up on anyone.
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Mickey
Guest
Peace be unto you.
You seem like a good man. I wish you the best in your pursuit as you strive to teach those who may have fallen away. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide.
St Paul says it nicely:
I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.
2 Tim Ch 4
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I don’t think you understood my question.
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Lapey
Guest
Not sure I know what you are saying here. Whichever name of the person, or the party; if the party platform stands for intrinsic evils and the candidate has proven he will push for the protection of these evils, I will vote against him; and try my best to educate as many about those truths as possible. This is my job as a herald of the Gospel.
If the republican party softens its stances any more than they are now on abortion, and the sanctity of marriage etc. I will be forced out of that party too just like when I was forced out of the democrat party.
Remember ProVobis, we will not be judged by our party affiliation, we will be judged on how we protected the innocents!
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Elizabeth502
Guest
No! You seriously believe that “after they received the gift of faith” (many had that gift of faith from early childhood), they never sinned henceforth?
Only one fully human being never sinned: Our Blessed Mother. She was the only one immaculately conceived and permanently sinless.
Period. Paragraph.
As holy men and women have grown in sanctity, their sinful tendencies and temptations have often diminished, but never disappeared entirely.
To believe anything else is to believe heresy.
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Lucky7
Guest
ProdigalSon,
I believe with all of my heart that you mean well. You want to believe the best in all Catholics. You want to believe that they will return to the Faith wholeheartedly. I also believe as I stated in another thread with you that your TP vote was done with the best of intentions (despite the dismal reality of our political, voting system when it comes to such votes).
Yet you continuously say that you don’t know of any pro-choice Catholics (I’m just using abortion as one issue, we know there are other issues where Catholics disagree with Church teaching)…because you live in a rural area. I tend to believe that in a small town in a rural area the Catholics will probably tend to be more faithful.
However, you have also said that you have never seen any Catholics on this website go against Church teaching. How long have you been posting here? Doesn’t your profile say you are a veteran member? I have been here a shorter time and I have seen numerous posts by Catholics who disagree with Church teaching. I’m not sure how you can miss these.
Further, if you are not in the midst of such Catholics, how do you propose to help them return to the Faith? I mentioned it before…I was on a secular forum for years. * I reiterated Church teaching (in charity mind you) to fellow Catholics there…over and over again. Years later…they are still entrenched in their non-Catholic views…some going as far as saying it is their duty to dissent. They also wish to stay in the Church…not to receive or better understand the Truth, but to help change it. These Catholics are obstinate…and from what I have read they seem to fit the definition of a material heretic. I know, I know, no one likes it when we use that word…and I wonder, why are *we afraid to call a spade a spade?
I get that as a layperson I can not throw them out of the Church (and I would much rather they turn from their heretical ways…but they aren’t), but when will the Church do something wrt these Catholics? They are poisoning the Church. They aren’t going to leave on their own like the Protestants of old. I have asked in another thread and got no answers. I’m not the best when it comes to CHurch history, but I don’t think the CHurch has ever had to deal with this type of attack *within *the Church (am I right about that?). Perhaps it’s time for the Church to reassess how to deal with this. It’s a huge problem and I really don’t know what the answer is.
I believe with all of my heart that you mean well. You want to believe the best in all Catholics. You want to believe that they will return to the Faith wholeheartedly. I also believe as I stated in another thread with you that your TP vote was done with the best of intentions (despite the dismal reality of our political, voting system when it comes to such votes).
Yet you continuously say that you don’t know of any pro-choice Catholics (I’m just using abortion as one issue, we know there are other issues where Catholics disagree with Church teaching)…because you live in a rural area. I tend to believe that in a small town in a rural area the Catholics will probably tend to be more faithful.
However, you have also said that you have never seen any Catholics on this website go against Church teaching. How long have you been posting here? Doesn’t your profile say you are a veteran member? I have been here a shorter time and I have seen numerous posts by Catholics who disagree with Church teaching. I’m not sure how you can miss these.
Further, if you are not in the midst of such Catholics, how do you propose to help them return to the Faith? I mentioned it before…I was on a secular forum for years. * I reiterated Church teaching (in charity mind you) to fellow Catholics there…over and over again. Years later…they are still entrenched in their non-Catholic views…some going as far as saying it is their duty to dissent. They also wish to stay in the Church…not to receive or better understand the Truth, but to help change it. These Catholics are obstinate…and from what I have read they seem to fit the definition of a material heretic. I know, I know, no one likes it when we use that word…and I wonder, why are *we afraid to call a spade a spade?
I get that as a layperson I can not throw them out of the Church (and I would much rather they turn from their heretical ways…but they aren’t), but when will the Church do something wrt these Catholics? They are poisoning the Church. They aren’t going to leave on their own like the Protestants of old. I have asked in another thread and got no answers. I’m not the best when it comes to CHurch history, but I don’t think the CHurch has ever had to deal with this type of attack *within *the Church (am I right about that?). Perhaps it’s time for the Church to reassess how to deal with this. It’s a huge problem and I really don’t know what the answer is.
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Lucky7
Guest
Oops. I was wrong about that. It seems that this sort of person would be called a formal heretic. Here is an excerpt from newadvent.org
The guiding principles in the Church’s treatment of heretics are the following: Distinguishing between formal and material heretics, she applies to the former the canon, “Most firmly hold and in no way doubt that every heretic or schismatic is to have part with the Devil and his angels in the flames of eternal fire, unless before the end of his life he be incorporated with, and restored to the Catholic Church.” No one is forced to enter the Church, but having once entered it through baptism, he is bound to keep the promises he freely made. To restrain and bring back her rebellious sons the Church uses both her own spiritual power and the secular power at her command. Towards material heretics her conduct is ruled by the saying of St. Augustine: "Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious zeal (animositas), especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected
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Mickey
Guest
The Church has had to deal with heretical factions many times throughout history. The greatest example was probably the Arians…the majority of the Church was Arian at one time!
But the gates of Hades will not prevail.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Once the saint received the gift of union with Jesus Christ, they did not sin,
It’s why they are Saints, who’s lives are a model of living out the Gospel in union with Jesus Christ.
Jim
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Interesting, then, that such dissidents as there may be are the ones who remain silent. It’s good that they do if, indeed, they would otherwise espouse positions that would mislead the laity into immoral decisions like politically supporting or failing to oppose someone like Obama.
I don’t think we can assume there is no intentional decision to err on the part of some Catholics. Having read lots and lots of posts on the morality of opposing someone like Obama, it is clear to me that many, for example, equate such issues as capital punishment or welfare levels with abortion despite the fact that it has been made quite clear that the Church teaches they are not proportionate issues at all and certainly not in the context of contemporary American politics.
Some who are quite ready to attribute bad faith to the more radical supporters of unfettered capitalism, for example, should not be any quicker to attribute good faith to those who support the promoters of abortion, homosexual marriage, oppression of the Church, and certainly not when the clear teachings of the Church are presented to them time and again.
One cannot cite the Catechism as supporting the absolute primacy of conscience, because it does not. That’s protestantism, not Catholicism. We cannot hide behind “my conscience tells me” if the teachings of the Church are contrary to it and the teachings of the Church are readily accessible to us.
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ProVobis
Guest
I think one of the dangers is that by simply saying vote for this guy or that woman releases you from the need to perform other civic duties. Besides voting takes you all of about 5 minutes once you get a ballot. A whole 5 minutes every two years? When everyday one can himself perform some function furthering pro-life causes. The politicians certainly don’t do it but sure do know how to exploit the system for their political gain.
Cicero said to choose the least of evils. He didn’t specifically say at the ballot box either.
Keep the faith.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I don’t think anyone would say that one fulfills one’s moral duty to oppose abortion simply by voting against its promoters, though that would be very minimally one’s duty. There are many other things one can do in one’s life, including, but certainly not limited to, telling the truth in here about the evil of supporting it and its proponents.I think one of the dangers is that by simply saying vote for this guy or that woman releases you from the need to perform other civic duties. Besides voting takes you all of about 5 minutes once you get a ballot. A whole 5 minutes every two years? When everyday one can himself perform some function furthering pro-life causes. The politicians certainly don’t do it but sure do know how to exploit the system for their political gain.
Cicero said to choose the least of evils. He didn’t specifically say at the ballot box either.
Keep the faith.
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Lucky7
Guest
So was that like it is now? Were those Catholics choosing to stick around in the hopes that the Church would agree with them? Did they pride themselves on disagreeing with the Church? Or did they move on and create their own denomination so to speak? If they did not move on on their own, what did the Church do? Allow them to stay in the Church despite their heresy?The Church has had to deal with heretical factions many times throughout history. The greatest example was probably the Arians…the majority of the Church was Arian at one time!
But the gates of Hades will not prevail.
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Mickey
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Santi2
Guest
If you say so. You want to try it again?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
No. If they never sinned after some unitive/mystical experience with Jesus, then they never would have had to go to Confession. They all partcipated in that Sacrament, until their deaths: Teresa of Avila, Faustina, etc. More modern figures, too. Archbishop Fulton Sheen is on his way to canonization, and he also sinned.
To be canonized means that you live a life of charity and “heroic virtue.” It’s an extraordinary level of consistency with regard to personal sanctity, but it is not actual “sinlessness.” Again, only Jesus Christ, God-man, and Our Lady, were sinless on earth.
“Being a model of living out the Gospel” is NOT the same thing as sinlessness.
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livnlern
Guest
A modern Athanasius would be most welcome!
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
On their way to perfect union with Jesus, they sinned, but once they reached spiritual union, they wouldn’t commit the slightest sin for fear of offending him. This is according to St. John of the Cross.
Jim
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