Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

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Rence said:
Excuses Exuses. You also don’t believe a Bishop speaks for the Church when he says something contrary to your conservative views. It goes both ways.

The Bishops did DID say that Catholics are NOT one issue voters and gave a LIST of topics to consider when voting. Furthermore they said that one should not discount a candidate for one reason, thus ignoring all the other topics. And Pope Benedict didn’t list “Five Negotiables”. However part of protection from conception to natural death includes the ability to feed, clothe, house and provide healthcare to those who need it. There is more to life than just bein born and peole are important after they are born as well. Vote the way your concience dictates as it’s the only way you should. Likewise, I will do the same.
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Pope Benedict listed 3 what he calls, non negotiables - protection from conception to natural death, preserving and protecting marriage between 1 man and 1 woman and protecting the right for parents to educate their children

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060330_eu-parliamentarians_en.html

Not a single Priest, Bishop or Pope states the economy or health care is a proportionate reason, there are quotes from Bishops saying neither are

USSCB said
As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.
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usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=36092

Full quote produces a much different answer from just saying the Bishops said not to be single issue voters. Bishops say a candidate supporting an intrinsic evil disqualifies them from receiving support
 
_Abyssinia said:
Pope Benedict listed 3 what he calls, non negotiables - protection from conception to natural death, preserving and protecting marriage between 1 man and 1 woman and protecting the right for parents to educate their children

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060330_eu-parliamentarians_en.html

Not a single Priest, Bishop or a Pope states the economy or health care is a proportionate reason, there are quotes from Bishops saying neither are
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Individual Bishops do not speak for the Magisterium; however the US Bishops collectively gave us a means to form our conscience that was designed to help us decide on our vote, saying that Catholics are NOT single issue voters. There is no “one single issue”. And yes, economy and healthcare are important matters in the protection of all life to those who cannot provide for themselves.
 
_Abyssinia said:
As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support
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Exactly, As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. And yes, a candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support…because we are not single issue voters. And yes, a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil may disqualify them from receiving support – however, that’s not a given that it WILL. “May” and “will” are two different things. We are STILL not single issue voters, and the list of topics given by the Bishops still apply.
 
Rence said:
Individual Bishops do not speak for the Magisterium; however the US Bishops collectively gave us a means to form our conscience that was designed to help us decide on our vote, saying that Catholics are NOT single issue voters. There is no “one single issue”. And yes, economy and healthcare are important matters in the protection of all life to those who cannot provide for themselves.
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You can not provide a quote from individual Bishops or the USSCB that health care and the economy are proportionate reasons
 
Rence said:
Exactly, As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. And yes, a candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support…because we are not single issue voters. And yes, a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil may disqualify them from receiving support – however, that’s not a given that it WILL. “May” and “will” are two different things. We are STILL not single issue voters, and the list of topics given by the Bishops still apply.
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Abortion has been declared by the Church to be one of the most serious sins in society. You do not weigh it up with other issues like the economy and health care, those issues are prudentual judgement, abortion is an intrinsic evil. Without basic respect for life you can not have a just society. Respect for the sancity of life is the foundation of Catholic social teaching so voting pro life does not make you a mere single issue voter, you are voting for upholding the foundation of Catholic social teaching. Requiring that candidates acknowledge the sancity of life from conception does not make you a single issue voter, it means that you believe that life can not be compromised
 
Rence said:
As Catholics we are not single-issue voters.
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If one candidate promised to force everyone to worship Satan would you vote “single issue” against that? Abortion is as bad as that. The point is that some issues are evil enough that we have to vote in a “single issue” way to oppose it.
 
_Abyssinia said:
You can not provide a quote from individual Bishops or the USSCB that health care and the economy are proportionate reasons
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It doesn’t matter. The Church doesn’t dictate via exact script what Catholics are to do about many things. For example, using NFP for ‘grave’ or ‘serious’ reason is not scripted either. Everyone with a conscience knows that providing for those in need, particularly the young, the old, the sick and the disabled, is a huge component of protection of life and a major priorty, which puts the economy and healtcare front and center. The Church lists topics to consider when voting and says we are not one issue voters. That speaks volumes about what one should do and it’s as plain as day: consider all the issues when voting, and we are not one-issue voters. If we are not one issue voters, then candidates are not disqualified based on one issue all other factors considered.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Abortion has been declared by the Church to be one of the most serious sins in society. You do not weigh it up with other issues like the economy and health care, those issues are prudentual judgement, abortion is an intrinsic evil. Without basic respect for life you can not have a just society. Respect for the sancity of life is the foundation of Catholic social teaching so voting pro life does not make you a mere single issue voter, you are voting for upholding the foundation of Catholic social teaching. Requiring that candidates acknowledge the sancity of life from conception does not make you a single issue voter, it means that you believe that life can not be compromised
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Ensuring that our vulnerable citizens (the old, the sick, the young, the disabled) are cared for is a very basic component of respect for life, which makes issues regarding our economy and healthcare very important.
 
livingwordunity said:
If one candidate promised to force everyone to worship Satan would you vote “single issue” against that? Abortion is as bad as that. The point is that some issues are evil enough that we have to vote in a “single issue” way to oppose it.
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Rence said:
A candidate would not promise that.
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A candidate can do whatever they want. Answer the question. Yes or no?
 
Rence said:
Excuses Exuses. You also don’t believe a Bishop speaks for the Church when he says something contrary to your conservative views. It goes both ways.

The Bishops did DID say that Catholics are NOT one issue voters and gave a LIST of topics to consider when voting. Furthermore they said that one should not discount a candidate for one reason, thus ignoring all the other topics. And Pope Benedict didn’t list “Five non-Negotiables”. However part of protection from conception to natural death includes the ability to feed, clothe, house and provide healthcare to those who need it. There is more to life than just bein born and peole are important after they are born as well. Vote the way your concience dictates as it’s the only way you should. Likewise, I will do the same.
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Please don’t insult faithful Catholics who believe that voting responsibly includes valuing the unborn as one issue voters.
 
There were many major reasons to oppose Obama and the Dems.

I oppose Obama because he has gutted the military. I’ve seen many good military members kicked out over arbitrarily imposed bureaucratic technicalities. Obama only cares about keeping his own job.

Obama just implemented a new rule that just before retiring after 20 years a military member must be weighed and/or measured. This has no purpose other than to take one last swipe at them to see if the government can get out of paying them their retirement. What a petty, dirty thing to do to someone at the last minute after they gave 20 of the best years of their life to the military. And because of Obama’s cuts to the military, 20 year vets have to pay 5 times more for family health insurance. But the military now pays for so-called “sex-change” operations for military members. All this and raiding medicare to give more money to Obamacare and to support Planned Parenthood’s abortions.

Obama’s universal “affordable” health care is a lie because vets have to pay more, and it’s not universal since children in the womb don’t have a right to health coverage.

I think Obama acted like a fool as president when he sided against the police department calling them racists and saying they “acted stupidly”. But oops, turned out Obama was wrong when the facts came out that the police department had done everything the way they should have done.

Obama made the same foolish blunder again by taking sides in the Treyvon Martin case before knowing any facts of it. And again, when the facts came out we found out things like how the media edited the 911 call to make Zimmerman look guilty. And we find out that Trayvon Martin might not be the innocent one. This is after Obama said if he had a son he would look like Trayvon, doh!

Obama disgraced the nation when after becoming president he went on his apology tour telling Muslims that Americans torture people and giving them more reason to hate Americans.

Obama said that the president of Egypt had to go, and now Egypt has fallen into the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Islamic extremist group, as a result. This will likely lead to a future problem similar to our problem with Iran. Obama’s promise of an “Arab Spring” utopia has also led to the big mess we see in Syria.

But the biggest reason for my opposition to Obama is his war on the Catholic Church. I don’t believe his lie that the Catholic Church has a “war on women”. And I strongly disagree with how the Democrat Party has made sodomy and abortion the twin pillars of the party platform.
 
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JMJSHJ said:
Please don’t insult faithful Catholics who believe that voting responsibly includes valuing the unborn as one issue voters.
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I’m not. So please, with all due respect, don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t in any way criticize the way you or anyone else chooses to vote, and I ask for the same courtesy. Seriously. 🙂
 
livingwordunity said:
A candidate can do whatever they want. Answer the question. Yes or no?
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Actually, no a candidate cannot do whatever they want, not if they want to be taken seriously. I can’t answer that because it’s not a reasonable question. Sorry 🤷
 
Rence said:
Actually, no a candidate cannot do whatever they want, not if they want to be taken seriously. I can’t answer that because it’s not a reasonable question. Sorry 🤷
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Abortion used to be considered evil by everyone, but now most people think it’s something good. Same with sodomy. So with the culture as hedonist as it is now, a candidate who openly says he’s a Satanist would probably gain himself more votes. The point is that it’s wrong to say that Catholics can never vote based on a single issue. But in this past election there were several major reasons for Catholics to be against the Obama admin.
 
livingwordunity said:
That’s your opinion which you can’t support. But the point is that it’s wrong to say that Catholics can never vote based on a single issue.
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One can vote however they like, but, it’s a false claim to say that if a Catholic voter has voted for a pro-choice candidate that they are automatically guilty of grave sin. A voter can vote with whatever issues they feel are most important, and of course they should. However, it’s false to say that Catholics are called on by the Church to vote with only one issue in mind, because that’s not how it is. The Church does not compell Catholics to vote with only one issue (or five) being the very most important, thereby disregarding all the other issues. What the Church has provided is a way to form one’s conscience by carefully examining a whole list of important topics.

I don’t know anyone who is in favor of abortion, let alone any Catholics who are in favor of abortion. But not everyone believes the same efforts will yield wanted results. In other words, voting for one candidate over another doesn’t convince me in any way that the abortion problem will get any better. In fact, because I believe one candidate is stronger in social issues than another, I believe the abortion issue will get worse if social issues are not addressed effectively. Sure, we can argue that both candidates are concerned about social issues, and we can argue about whose plan is the best, but I, the voter, am not convinced of the one’s plans at all, whereas I think less damage will be done with the other. And that’s our job as voters: to look at all the topics and look at the whole picture and vote for the candidate who will do the less damage and hope they do the best they can do.
 
Rence said:
One can vote however they like, but, it’s a false claim to say that if a Catholic voter has voted for a pro-choice candidate that they are automatically guilty of grave sin.
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I didn’t say that everyone who voted for Obama is guilty of grave sin. There are some, for example, who voted for him because they don’t know any English, and the only media source they have is Univision which totally promotes the Democrat candidate. My mother-in-law falls into that category. She is a faithful Catholic who didn’t know that voting for Obama was a vote for more intrinsic evils imposed on Americans.
 
livingwordunity said:
Abortion used to be considered evil by everyone, but now most people think it’s something good. Same with sodomy. So with the culture as hedonist as it is now, a candidate who openly says he’s a Satanist would probably gain himself more votes. The point is that it’s wrong to say that Catholics can never vote based on a single issue. But in this past election there were several major reasons for Catholics to be against the Obama admin.
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Well now, your senario has changed, hasn’t it? 😉

Your first senario asked:
Originally Posted by livingwordunity
If one candidate promised to force everyone to worship Satan would you vote “single issue” against that? Abortion is as bad as that. The point is that some issues are evil enough that we have to vote in a “single issue” way to oppose it.
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And of course, I can’t answer that because this country is not keen on meshing religion and the government. No laws can favor any one religion. So it’s not likely that your first senario will ever happen, not if the candidate wants to be taken seriously. As to your second one:
So with the culture as hedonist as it is now, a candidate who openly says he’s a Satanist would probably gain himself more votes.
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Maybe. But then this “Satanist” isn’t promising everyone to worship Satan, or anyone else. That would be the same with any other religion, like…the mormon religion.
The point is that some issues are evil enough that we have to vote in a “single issue” way to oppose it.
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Of course, but again, the Church isn’t the one compelling Catholics to vote with only one ‘single issue’ in mind, therby disregarding all the others. What’s happening is, indiviual Catholics are compelling other Catholics to do so. Which again, is a completely different story.
 
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