Papal prerogatives

[Fr_Ambrose]

"According to the data published by the [Vatican] Central Office of Statistics of our Secretary of State, on 1 January 2000 there were 117,000 Catholics in Israel and the Palestinian Territories out of a population of 6.1 million inhabitants. We know besides that there are a considerable number of other Christians, primarily of the Greek-Orthodox Patriarchate.

vatican.net/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20011213_sodano-holy-land_en.html

interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate – according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate’s Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful.

This will have some impact on the future of the Patriarchate.

---

We see from these statistics that the Orthodox outnumber the 117,000 Catholics (of seven years ago.)

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

It is singularly the daughters of the EP that remain steadfast in their infidelity to Rome.

The Coptic Orthodox will not even allow one of their members to marry a Roman Catholic! What example of “fidelity” to Rome is that!?

 

[dvdjs]

Gentlemen:
Thanks for reposting my lovely graph.

Now I will repost my earlier comment to Fr. Ambrose, when he made the same interpretive error as he did on this thread:

"First, the data points involve estimates that are probably a bit crude beyond the last couple of centuries. Second, the lines are merely a guide to the eye (they derive from fitting the coefficients of a 7th order polynomial to the data points - an autoregression). You should be cautious about over-interpreting the (longer) interpolations. (Note, similarly, that if the graph is extrapolated to ~2100 the Orthodox fraction vanishes altogether!) Overall, even if the “time of the schism” is taken arbitrarily as 1054, it can only be inferred, taking the data at face value, that the very close to half of the Christian church was Orthodox, and that at this time the Orthodox church was losing its majority.

You previously wrote:
“I have always understood that at the time of the 1054 Schism, the Christians in the East far outnumbered those in the West.” I don’t think there is any reasonable sense of “far outnumbered” that is compatible with the linked data."

Anthony’s point is interesting. The folks who compiled this data used in the graph are no doubt aware of the unity of the church in the first millenium. Nevertheless for the purposes of illustration there is a division into, let’s say, proto-catholics and proto-orthodox. More interestingly, there is also a separate tabulation of proto-anglicans, who are certainly part of the West.

Thus, even if the data and the interpolations are taken as perfectly accurate, the East and West were “even steven” not in 1125 but in ~1070 (~51% O in 1054). Moreover, if one is interested in whether the EO’s were in the majority, on would have to subtract the OO’s which the compilers tabulated with the EO’s as “orthodox”. This discussion may be tangential to anything serious, but it would be nice if we could agree on obvious things.

 

[dvdjs]

Dear Father Ambrose:

I wrote:
At the present time, in the territory of the Antiochian and Jerusalem churches, there is a hefty majority of Christians in communion with Rome over the Eastern Orthodox.

You responded:
Not so at all.

Then you proceeded to talk about Israel and Palestine. I, however, considered the territory (singular) of the Antiochian and Jerusalem churches (plural) together. I did this simply because I don’t exactly know where the border of these territories are and how they map into present-day nations, diocese, eparchies, …

Is the JP territory identical to modern Israel, the left-bank and Gaza? If so, it will be possible to get good numbers from the Catholic Hierarchy website to compare with Roberson’s estimates for EO Christians in the JP.

 

[dvdjs]

The Coptic Orthodox will not even allow one of their members to marry a Roman Catholic! What example of “fidelity” to Rome is that!?

None at all. And…?

Perhaps I should have worded my comment more carefully, and not have relied so much on context. Especially here.

We were discussing alignments - the faithfulness to Rome in your words - of churches that separated at “1054”. The OO church was obviously not involved in that separation.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Gentlemen:
Thanks for reposting my lovely graph.

Now I will repost my earlier comment to Fr. Ambrose, when he made the same interpretive error as he did on this thread:.

The point stands… your graph shows that at the time of the schism the Catholics of the East outnumbered the Catholics of the West. The Pope lost more than half his entire Church.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

We were discussing alignments - the faithfulness to Rome in your words - of churches that separated at “1054”. The OO church was obviously not involved in that separation.

Rome failed to understand that the differences with the Copts and the Orientals were not a matter of theology but of semantics. It mistakenly cast the Orientals out of the Catholic Church.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

If so, it will be possible to get good numbers from the Catholic Hierarchy website to compare with Roberson’s estimates for EO Christians in the JP.

Generally the trouble is that nobody figures in the great influx of Russian Orthodox (Christian) Jews. They now outnumber the entire Arab Orthodox membership of the holy Church of Jerusalem. But they are a hot political potato and often de-emphasized. The Patriarchate has formed a special department for their spiritual care, offering Services in both Slavonic and Hebrew.

One in 5 Israelis is now Russian, 20% of the population. A proportion of these are Jews by ancestry but Russian Orthodox Christians by religion. Today new Orthodox churches are being built throughout Israel and even on the kibbutzim! The Russians and the Arabs are brother Orthodox in Israel and together they will bring a new springtime of Christianity to the Mother Church of Jerusalem.

Hebrew has returned to Orthodoxy as a liturgical language. One day in the future a Jew (a son from the Russian community) will once again sit on the Throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Just to get back on topic… Mardukm has placed the same Poll on Apologetics. How is it being received by the Catholic community?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello

It is similar to why nobody who denied papal infallibility in the Latin Church prior to 1870 was branded a heretic for doing so.

A pile of bricks does not an edifice make.

Your quotes for the most part don’t deal with infallibility, but supremacy. No matter, for us it’s much the same problem.

• Opatatus (c. 367 A.D.):
  “In the city of Rome … Recall then the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church.”
  (Opatatus, The Schism of the Donatists, 2:2)

Yes, we dealt with this already:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2764078&highlight=Optatus#post2764078

St. Optatus goes on to list, as his "proof, an incorrect (according to New Advent, maybe it just wasnt’ the latest revised official list)list of popes. So it’s all important for that one chair, but not so much to recognize the right occupant.

+ Socrates Scholasticus (c. AD 380-450), a Greek Church historian in Constantinople:
“…the churches shall not make any ordinances against the opinion of the bishop of Rome.”
(The Ecclesiastical History 2, 8, NPNF2, 2:38)

Another problem with recognizing the right occupant: Socrates adhering to the Novatian sitting in that chair.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.ii.iii.ii.html

Your quote is partial “…an ecclesiastical canon commands that the churches…” Where is said canon? what collection?

As for the allegation (Socrates’ colleague Sozomon’s word ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.iii.viii.x.html ) of the Pope of Rome that “whatever is enacted contrary to the judgment of the bishop of Rome is null,” when the pope “perceived that what he had written to those who held the sacerdotal dignity in the East was of no avail, he made the matter known to Constans the emperor. Accordingly, Constans wrote to his brother Constantius, requesting him to send some of the bishops of the East, that they might assign a reason for the edicts of deposition which they had passed.” So much for deriving his authority from St. Peter, without Romulus’ successor (and at the time still pontifex maximus) to back it up.

• Signatories of the “Formula of Hormisdas” (519 AD) to

See the Epistle of the Patriarchs (1848) and their comments on the acceptance of Leo’s tome, here alluded to. I believe I’ve already posted it here.

• Patriarch Mennas (ca. A.D. 536-552; d. A.D. 552), commemorated in the West on August 25, in his own sentence against Anthimus at a council in Constantinople (ca. A.D. 536):
  “Indeed Agapetus of holy memory, pope of Old Rome, giving him time for repentance until he should receive whatever the holy fathers defined, did not allow him to be called either a priest or a Catholic… we follow and obey the apostolic throne; we are in communion with those with whom it is in communion, and we condemn those whom it condemns.”
  (Mansi 8: 968-70, as found in “Keys Over the Christian World”; author Scott Butler).

It is no wonder he spoke highly of Agapetus: that Pope consecrated him to succeed Anthimus, part of Justianian I’s program of bringing the East in line with the West.

St. Mennas did not always follow and obey Rome: he was excommunicated twice by Rome, in 547 and in 551, although his patriarchate represents the apogee of Rome’s power in New Rome. Both times St. Mennas was upholding, against the pope of Rome, what would be the definition at the Fifth Ecumenical council.

It is interesting that at this you mention, Mennas presided, and not the 5 Italians BISHOPS who the Pope sent as his legates.
newadvent.org/cathen/10190a.htm

I do believe that I went through the trouble here to post the quotes of Polycrates response to Pope Victor, Eusebius’ record of the rebukes of Victor from across the Catholic world, including St. Iranaeus. So much for the early witness of Rome infallible supremacy in faith and morals.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Generally the trouble is that nobody figures in the great influx of Russian Orthodox (Christian) Jews. They now outnumber the entire Arab Orthodox membership of the holy Church of Jerusalem. But they are a hot political potato and often de-emphasized. The Patriarchate has formed a special department for their spiritual care, offering Services in both Slavonic and Hebrew.

One in 5 Israelis is now Russian, 20% of the population. A proportion of these are Jews by ancestry but Russian Orthodox Christians by religion. Today new Orthodox churches are being built throughout Israel and even on the kibbutzim! The Russians and the Arabs are brother Orthodox in Israel and together they will bring a new springtime of Christianity to the Mother Church of Jerusalem.

Hebrew has returned to Orthodoxy as a liturgical language. One day in the future a Jew (a son from the Russian community) will once again sit on the Throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.

Yes, I remember being in the Jerusalem in 1992, and already the Hebrews were filling the Churches. The of course causes problems for the Arab Orthodox’s situation, already problematic because of the Greek hold on the episcopate.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The Coptic Orthodox will not even allow one of their members to marry a Roman Catholic! What example of “fidelity” to Rome is that!?

Yes, I notice the omission too of hte OO, who aren’t running to Rome.

 

[dvdjs]

The point stands… your graph shows that at the time of the schism the Catholics of the East outnumbered the Catholics of the West. The Pope lost more than half his entire Church.

And one could similarly say that the EO suffered a similar loss.

The graph simply does not “show” that “the Catholics of the East outnumbered the Catholics of the West” at the time of the schism. There are students here; please set a better example.

 

[dvdjs]

Rome failed to understand that the differences with the Copts and the Orientals were not a matter of theology but of semantics. It mistakenly cast the Orientals out of the Catholic Church.

 

[dvdjs]

Generally the trouble is that nobody figures in the great influx of Russian Orthodox (Christian) Jews…

Nobody but you?

So what is the canonical territory of the JP (ditto for the AP)?
I quick look at Roberson and Catholic Hierarchy gives numbers that disagree with your suggestions.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

The graph simply does not “show” that “the Catholics of the East outnumbered the Catholics of the West” at the time of the schism.

Well, to my eye that is certainly what the graph shows. Here it is again for students to gaze upon…

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5191/graphstatisticsschismdv9.gif

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Fr Ambrose:

Rome failed to understand that the differences with the Copts and the Orientals were not a matter of theology but of semantics. It mistakenly cast the Orientals out of the Catholic Church.

Your point? That Rome acted correctly in dismissing the Orientals from the Church?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

So what is the canonical territory of the JP (ditto for the AP)?
I quick look at Roberson and Catholic Hierarchy gives numbers that disagree with your suggestions.

Would you quote please.

 

[dvdjs]

Father,

If one is uncritical about the accuracy of the data, and naive about the hazards of interpolation (in particular interpolation not guided by theory, but only by smooth connection of the data points), one can see all sorts of things. But such observations are not sound.

A better way to think about this is: given some reasonable estimate of the uncertainties of the data, how confident can one be that at 1054 the East or West was in the majority? This is pretty much a coin flip, thus one would have little confidence in such an inference. So little that one ought not make it.

How confident can I be that one church did not vastly (say by 3x) outnumber the other? With only the modest assumption that the data are not way off (fractional errors approaching 100%), then that idea is pretty clearly false.

The data supporting some inferences at at godd level of confidence; but others they do not. They should not be pushed furhter than is appropriate.

 

[dvdjs]

Would you quote please.

The Catholic Hierarchy site gives ~190,000 Catholics in Israel, Palestne, and Jordan. (Since these three entities had to sign off on the JP appointment, I assume all should be included.) Roberson gives the total for the JP as 130,000. This is not a big difference; the disparity grows substantially when one adds in the AP.