So Jane the care of millions of souls hinges on whether or not Ignatius meant universal authority or local authority?
Simon, I understand your frustration here. Truly, I do, more than you can imagine. Our very nature begs that we not submit. Our brokenness tells us to doubt anyone or anything that would attempt to assert power over us, especially when it is so counter-intuitive.
However, yes, I trust that Christ has power enough to guide His Church, under the successors of St. Peter, throughout Christendom without stain or blemish, in matters of faith and morals. I trust that through the Holy Spirit, the Church has been prepared and preserved since Christ Himself gave the keys to Peter.
That is the one ECF you are willing to hang your hat on?
Do not misunderstand me, Simon. I never have said nor implied that Ignatius alone is sufficient to “hang my hat.” Instead, I provided his strong and pointed witness as proof to satisfy your arbitrary pre-200 A.D. qualification.
To be sure, no one ECF is sufficient on his own. This is particularly why the writings of the Early Church Fathers serve as brushstrokes within the canvas of Catholic theology and Catechetical teaching.
Even though, over and over you can see evidence to the contrary from other writers that is was both Peter and Paul
Once again, the prominence of Peter AND Paul at Rome does not diminish the role of Peter as keeper of the keys. There is no contradiction here.
and you can see Roman bishops being chastised by other bishops and even threats of excommunication,
I think an honest consideration of human nature provides clear insight into why this would be the case. We all have authority over us that we sometimes deny. We want so badly to be our only authority or to suppose our authority over others. Don’t we all at some point want to be the greatest, too? That’s human nature.
The important thing to consider, however, is despite any evidence of dissent or threats, who holds the key? All the bishops hold thrones of judgment. All the bishops are capable of fraternal correction. This does not contradict papal primacy.
What makes this issue even more interesting regarding the issue of Peter is what Jesus says immediately after he gives the Apostles their thrones. In the very next verse, he turns to Peter. He says to him, “Simon, Simon! Remember Satan has asked for you, to sift you all like wheat. But I have prayed for **you **that **your **faith may never fail.
You in turn must strengthen your brothers” (Lk. 22:30). Just three verses before he says this to Peter, he tells all the Apostles, “Let the greater among you be as the junior, the leader as the servant” (Lk. 22:26). You can imagine the eyes that turned to Peter as Jesus begins to single him out in such a tone as “Simon, Simon!” You can just imagine the muffled snickers. . .Oooh, Peter’s gonna get a lesson! Jesus is very demonstratively turning Peter into the “junior” who is being given a warning about Satan and his temptation. Then, still in keeping with his previous instruction, he gives Peter a special responsibility, enforced by Christ’s own prayer for him, to serve his brothers. To strengthen them. Certainly, the Apostles would not have missed tthe connection.
And this is the connection we see as we consider the Pope’s capacity to receive correction even as he holds the key. He is the servant. He is the greatest. And at times he is corrected for the glory of God and the benefit of the Church. His charge then is to stregthen his brothers in turn.
your going to hang it all on Ignatius?
No I don’t.
What if your wrong?
What if I’m right?
Likewise.
And further, how does your submission to the Bishop of Rome jeopardize your salvation in Jesus Christ? Pascal’s wager is echoing here. . .where is the weight of expected value? The patristic consensus is sound and strong. The Scriptural support is solid. And history is in favor of a Christian church under the authority of the Roman episcopate.
I am assured that my submission to Peter’s successor keeps me in line with the Apostolic tradition. My adherence to the Church’s teachings, charged to the Magisterium, has served only to bring me more in line with the gospel and convert my soul towards my Lord and God, Jesus Christ.
for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me:
Paul had been preaching to the