Parallelism between Quran and previous scriptures

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

MARY, JESUS AND THE PALM TREE

The Bible canon does not contain the episode of Mary, Jesus and the palm tree as this is included in the apocrypha. On the other hand the Quran does contain the story.

19:22
فحملته فانتبذت به مكانا قصيا
Fahamalat-hu faintabathat bihi makanan qasiyyan
Literal So she was pregnant (with) him so she distantly isolated herself with him (to) a far/remote place/position.
Maulana Ali Then she conceived him; and withdrew with him to a remote place.

‏19:23
فاجاءها المخاض الى جذع النخلة قالت ياليتني مت قبل هذا وكنت نسيا منسيا
Faajaaha almakhadu ila jithAAi alnnakhlati qalat ya laytanee mittu qabla hatha wakuntu nasyan mansiyyan
Literal So the labour/childbirth came to her to (at) the palm tree’s trunk/stem, she said: “Oh I wish I would have died before this and I was forgotten (and long) forgotten.”
Maulana Ali And the throes of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten!

‏19:24
فناداها من تحتها الا تحزني قد جعل ربك تحتك سريا
Fanadaha min tahtiha alla tahzanee qad jaAAala rabbuki tahtaki sariyyan
Literal So he (Jesus) called her from below/beneath her: “That do not be sad/grieving, your Lord had put below/beneath you a stream/clearance of a burden/generosity .”
Maulana Ali So a voice came to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely thy Lord has provided a stream beneath three.

‏19:25
وهزي اليك بجذع النخلة تساقط عليك رطبا جنيا
Wahuzzee ilayki bijithAAi alnnakhlati tusaqit AAalayki rutaban janiyyan
Literal And shake/move to(wards) you with the palm tree’s trunk/stem, it causes freshly harvested/gathered ripe/moist (dates) to fall/drop repeatedly on you.
Maulana Ali And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm-tree, it will drop on thee fresh ripe dates.

‏19:26
فكلي واشربي وقري عينا فاما ترين من البشر احدا فقولي ان نذرت للرحمن صوما فلن اكلم اليوم انسيا
Fakulee waishrabee waqarree AAaynan fa-imma tarayinna mina albashari ahadan faqoolee innee nathartu lilrrahmani sawman falan okallima alyawma insiyyan
Literal So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say: ‘That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the merciful, a fast , so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human .’
Maulana Ali So eat and drink and cool the eye. Then if thou seest any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent, so I will not speak to any man to-day.

This is a clear parallel of the account in the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew.

“CHAP. 20.-- And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.”
wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/gospels/psudomat.htm

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Dating issues
The dating of this apocrypha is contentious. Most scholars date it to the fourth or fifth century, although some date it later to the eighth or ninth century. However, the balance of probability suggests that it pre-dates Islam. This is because of its reference in the ‘Decretum Gelasianum De Libris Recipiendis Et Non Recipiendis’ as ‘the book of the nativity of the saviour and of Mary or the midwife’. tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

{Note: Apocrypha are known by various names, particularly in translations.}

The Decretum is said to have been issued by Pope Gelasius I (492-496AD) in 494 although some scholars claim it was wrongly attributed to Gelasius I and believe it was written in the sixth century. newadvent.org/cathen/03281a.htm

Here are some evidence of the dating of the apocrypha:
catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=224
58. Pseudo-Matthew, Gospel of, a late Latin infancy gospel of 8th or 9th century. Our earliest MSS are of the 11th century. When certain infancy gospels had been condemned by Popes Damasus, Innocent I, and the Gelasian Decree popular interest seems to have motivated the writing of Pseudo-Matthew. It is substantially a rewrite, with additions, omissions, changes of the Protoevangelium of James and the Gospel of Thomas. It seems also to have aimed at the veneration of Mary as Queen of Virgins. It had great influence on medieval literature and art.

udayton.edu/mary/questions/yq2/yq335.htm
When asking about sources or origins of the Nativity, we are well advised to look with one eye to the Bible (the Infancy Narrations in Luke and Matthew), and with the other eye, to the so-called apocryphal writings. Among them are four I would like to mention: the Pseudo-Gospel of James (150-2–), where the midwife and her friend are mentioned; the Arabic Infancy Gospel (500); the Book about the Infancy of the Savior (500-800); and the Pseudo-Gospel of Matthew (550-700).

newadvent.org/cathen/01601a.htm#III1
Gospel of St. Matthew
This is a Latin composition of the fourth or fifth century. It pretends to have been written by St. Matthew and translated by St. Jerome. Pseudo-Matthew is in large part parallel to the “Protoevangelium Jacobi”, being based on the latter or its sources. It differs in some particulars always in the direction of the more marvellous. Some of its data have replaced in popular belief parallel ones of the older pseudograph. Such is the age of fourteen in which Mary was betrothed to Joseph. A narrative of the flight into Egypt is adorned with poetic wonders. The dragons, lions, and other wild beasts of the desert adore the infant Jesus. At His word the palm-trees bow their heads that the Holy Family may pluck their fruit. The idols of Egypt are shattered when the Divine Child enters the land. The “Gospel of the Nativity of Mary” is a recast of the Pseudo-Matthew, but reaches only to the birth of Jesus. It is extant in a Latin manuscript of the tenth century.

muhammadanism.org/Crescent/p166.htm
Tisdall:
The Pseudo-Matthew (otherwise called Hist. Nativ. Mariae) “may belong to the fifth century.” (Cowper, p. 27; cf. Introd., p. liv.)

answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/borrow.htm
Jacques Hervieux writes in “The New Testament Apocrypha”, published by Hawthorn Books, page 18: “About the sixth century there appeared in Latin a certain book on the birth of the Blessed Mary and of the Savior’s infancy. An introductory letter presented this new work as a “supplement” to the Gospel of St. Matthew, translated personally by St. Jerome the great fourth century exegete.”[35] “The New Testament Apocrypha”, Hawthorn Books

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

earlychristianwritings.com/tixeront/section1-3.html
8. The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew. The “Protoevangelium Jacobi” has its Latin counterpart in the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, entitled Liber de Ortu Beatae Mariae et Infantia Salvatoris,[15] the contents of which are much the same as that of the “Protoevangelium,” plus the subject matter of the “Gospel of Thomas.” It is a compilation of the fifth century.

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-66.htm
The greater number of the authorities on the subject, however, seem to agree in assigning to the first four centuries of the Christian era, the following five books: 1. The Protevangelium of James; 2. The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew; 4. The History of Joseph the Carpenter; 5. The Gospel of Thomas; 9. The Gospel of Nicodemus.

Conclusion
The parallel between the Quran and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew suggests a non-divine source for the Quran. This story, in which Jesus was still in the womb during the flight to Egypt, is clearly at odds with the canonical gospels which suggest that Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1,5-6,8,16; Luke 2:4,15; John 7:42) and the flight to Egypt occurred only after his birth at Bethlehem.

KJV Matthew 2:13-14:
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Christians believe that Jesus was prophesized to be born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). It looks like Muhammad bin Abdallah never read the Old Testament.

Next topic: Satan’s Refusal to Prostrate Before Adam

PS Neverland: you’re welcome to use my work as much as you like. Ciudate, Rodrigo

 

[inJESUS]

Conclusion
The parallel between the Quran and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew suggests a non-divine source for the Quran.

thats something new

Good posts
waiting for the plagiarism of Satan and Adam

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

SATAN’S REFUSAL TO PROSTRATE TO ADAM

The Quranic story that Satan was expelled from Heaven for defying Allah’s command to prostrate to Adam seems to have antecedents in pre-Islamic Jewish tales. The Torah and Bible do not contain this tale.

7:11
ولقد خلقناكم ثم صورناكم ثم قلنا للملائكة اسجدوا لادم فسجدوا الا ابليس لم يكن من الساجدين
Walaqad khalaqnakum thumma sawwarnakum thumma qulna lilmala-ikati osjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa lam yakun mina alssajideena
Literal And We had created you, then We pictured/formed you, then We said to the angels: “Prostrate to Adam.” So they prostrated except Satan, was not from the prostrating.
Maulana Ali And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam. So they submitted, except Iblis; he was not of those who submitted.

‏7:12
قال مامنعك الا تسجد اذ امرتك قال انا خير منه خلقتني من نار وخلقته من طين
Qala ma manaAAaka alla tasjuda ith amartuka qala ana khayrun minhu khalaqtanee min narin wakhalaqtahu min teenin
Literal He (God) said: “What prevented/stopped/forbid you, that you not prostrate when/if I ordered/commanded you?” He (the devil)said: “I am better than him, You created me from fire, and You created him from mud/clay .”
Maulana Ali He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not submit when I commanded thee? He said: I am better than he; thou hast created me of fire while him Thou didst create of dust.

7:13
قال فاهبط منها فما يكون لك ان تتكبر فيها فاخرج انك من الصاغرين
Qala faihbit minha fama yakoonu laka an tatakabbara feeha faokhruj innaka mina alssaghireena
Literal He (God) said: “So drop/reduce/decline from it, so (it) was not to be for you that you be arrogant in it, so get out/emerge , that you are from the subservient/humiliated/lowly .”
Maulana Ali He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it is not for thee to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely thou art of the abject ones.

‏7:18
قال اخرج منها مذؤوما مدحورا لمن تبعك منهم لاملان جهنم منكم اجمعين
Qala okhruj minha mathooman madhooran laman tabiAAaka minhum laamlaanna jahannama minkum ajmaAAeena
Literal He (God) said: “Get out/emerge from it expelled/degraded, expelled/driven away, whom (E) followed you from them, I will fill (E) Hell from you all/all together (E).”
Maulana Ali He said: Get out of it, despised, driven away. Whoever of them will follow thee, I will certainly fill hell with you all.

This story recurs several times in the Quran, for instance:

Remember when your Lord said to the angels, “I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him then fall you down prostrating yourselves unto him.” SO the angels prostrated themselves all of them together, except Iblis, he refused to be among the prostrators. Allah said: “O Iblis! What is your reason for not being among the prostrators?” Iblis said: “I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.” Allah said: "Then get out from here for verily you are Rajim (an outcast or cursed one). Verily the curse shall be upon you till Day of Recompense (Day of Resurrection). (15:28-35 Quran).

“Shall I prostrate to one whom You created from clay?” Iblis said: “See? those whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite (keep me alive) to the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring (by sending them astray) all but a few!” (17:62 Quran).

Remember when your Lord said to the angels: “Truly I am going to create man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” So the angels prostrated themselves all of them; except Iblis, he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. Allah said: “The truth is, and the truth I say, that I will fill Hell with you and those of them (mankind) that follow you together.” (38:71-85 Quran).

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Apparently, the story of Satan refusing to prostate/worship (sajada) Adam is found in the apocryphal ‘Life of Adam and Eve’, a first to fourth century Jewish Hellenistic work. Some authorities date it to the first century CE based on the absence of the Christian concept of original sin and the influence of the story on the Ebionites. britannica.com/eb/article-73363

A version of it in Syriac, The Cave of Treasure, appeared in the sixth century. There were early versions also of this story in Arabic, Ethiopic, and Armenian, which indicate the early spread of the story regarding the worship of Adam by the angels.
answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Zwemer/Studies/chap10.htm

“And with a heavy sigh, the devil spake: ‘O Adam! all my hostility, envy, and sorrow is for thee, since it is for thee that I have been expelled from my glory, which I possessed in the heavens in the midst of the angels and for thee was I cast out in the earth.’ Adam answered, ‘What dost thou tell me? What have I done to thee or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us?’

“The devil replied, ‘Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled from that place. When thou wast formed, I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life and thy face and likeness was made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made (us) worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord spake: “Here is Adam. I have made him in our image and likeness.”

“‘And Michael went out and called all the angels saying: “Worship the image of God as the Lord hath commanded.”

“‘And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said: “Worship the image of God the Lord.” And I answered, “I have no (need) to worship Adam.” And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him, “Why dost thou urge me? I will not worship an inferior and younger being (than I). I am his senior in the Creation, before he was made was I already made. It is his duty to worship me.”

“‘When the angels, who were under me, heard this, they refused to worship him. And Michael saith, “Worship the image of God, but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wroth with thee.” And I said, “If He be wroth with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the Highest.”

“‘And God the Lord was wroth with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on thy account were we expelled from our abodes into this world and hurled n the earth. And straightway we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we were grieved when we saw thee in such joy and luxury. And with guile I cheated thy wife and caused thee to be expelled through her (doing) from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory.’

“When Adam heard the devil say this, he cried out and wept and spake: ‘O Lord my God, my life is in thy hands. Banish this Adversary far from me, who seeketh to destroy my soul, and give me his glory which he himself hath lost.’ And at that moment, the devil vanished before him. But Adam endured in his penance, standing for forty days (on end) in the water of Jordan.”
unicorngarden.com/adameve.htm

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The story is also found in the Talmud, namely the Genesis Rabba (or Bereshith Rabba – compiled in the fourth or fifth century CE, some say sixth century CE) and the Pirke Rabbi De Eliezer. Also, in Die Schatzhöle, an anonymous work, which dates from the sixth century, we have the Christian legend of what took place after the creation of Adam:

“When the angels saw his splendid appearance, they were moved by the fairness of his aspect. And God gave him there the dominion over all creatures, and all the wild beasts and the cattle and the birds, and they came before Adam and he gave them names, and they bowed their heads before him and worshipped him, and all their natures worshipped and served him. And the angels and powers heard the voice of God, who said to him, ‘O Adam, behold I have made thee king, priest, prophet, lord, head and leader of all creatures and they serve thee and are thine. And I have given thee dominion over all I have created.’ And when the angels heard this word, they all bent their knees and worshipped him.

“And when the head of the lower order saw that greatness had been given to Adam, he envied him thenceforth, refused to worship him and said to his powers: ‘Worship him not and praise him not with the angels. It befits him to worship me, not me to worship dust, formed out of a grain of dust.’ Such things the rebel had uttered and was disobedient and by his own free will became separated from God. And he was felled and he fell, he and his whole band. On the sixth day in the second hour, he fell from heaven, and they were stripped of the robes of their glory, and his name was called Satana, because he had turned away from God, and Sheda, because he had been cast down, and Daiva, because he had lost the robe of his glory. And look, from that same day and until today, he and all his armies are stripped and naked and ugly to look on. And after Satan had been cast from Heaven, Adam was exalted so that he ascended to Paradise.”
answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Zwemer/Studies/chap10.htm

Conclusion
The Quranic story of Satan refusing to worship or prostate before Adam seems to have distinct antecedents in pre-Islamic Jewish and Christian sources. It is possible that this is mere coincidence. For more than fifteen centuries after God revealed Genesis to Moses he was content to leave this story untold. Then around the first century CE Jewish story tellers, independent of divine revelation, invented this story. After another six hundred years or so, Allah decided it was high time this story was properly told to humanity, thus he chose to reveal it to Muhammad in a form almost exactly similar to that told by the non-divine Jewish writers.

One begs the question why an omniscient deity would leave himself open to a charge of ‘parallelism’ when the simplest solution would merely be to include the story within the first chapter of the Torah. Instead, he chose to permit Jewish rabbis the distinction of co-inventing this story long before his revelation to any prophet.

Next topic: The Queen of Sheba

 

[Neverland]

Dear Rodrigo,

The Queen, is it related to Solomon?

Neverland

P.S. I wonder where Gonzales, Joseph Allison, Shen and others? Don’t they want to share and study too?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The short answer is ‘yes’.

After this topic, I intend to discuss the Samaritan, then make a summary of the remaining parallelisms, including Abraham and the idols, Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, The Story of Talut - Saul, Gideon, David and Goliath, and then move on to the conclusion. This thread is long enough.

Hasta Luego,
Rodrigo

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Perhaps Bivar is busy right at moment. Anybody has the source about the next topic (listed by Rodrigo) could be posted here. There topics are a very useful information!

 

[inJESUS]

Cyber Knight:

Perhaps Bivar is busy right at moment. Anybody has the source about the next topic (listed by Rodrigo) could be posted here. There topics are a very useful information!

i do but i leave it to the “boss”

 

[arthra]

I think since the time of George Sale you could read that most Christians believed there were influences on the Qur’an from apocryphal or Talmudic sources and so that’s over about two hundred years ago of this supposition so it’s not a particularly original idea … however I have yet to find any historical evidence confirming this.

There’s an essay you can peruse at

salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawi/Quran/Sources/Bibleborro.html

Which I think should be read by interested parties.

• Art

 

[inJESUS]

arthra:

I think since the time of George Sale you could read that most Christians believed there were influences on the Qur’an from apocryphal or Talmudic sources and so that’s over about two hundred years ago of this supposition so it’s not a particularly original idea … however I have yet to find any historical evidence confirming this.

There’s an essay you can peruse at

salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawi/Quran/Sources/Bibleborro.html

Which I think should be read by interested parties.

• Art

i read half on the link and stopped coz it includes many historical mistakes especially the ones about christians in Mecca and the existence of the arabic Bible over there; the islamic hadith is full of evidences that opposes these mistakes. Later. Do you read arabic?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

THE QUEEN OF SHEBA

The story of the Queen of Sheba is an ancient one, dating back to the Old Testament (1 Kgs. 10:1-10 and 2 Chr. 9:1-12). Josephus also mentions the Queen of Sheba as does the Quran, which interestingly embellishes the Old Testament account with the episodes of the hoopoe and the Queen of Sheba’s exposing her legs.

Hilali & Khan 27:20-44 He inspected the birds, and said: “What is the matter that I see not the hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?” I will surely punish him with a severe torment, or slaughter him, unless he brings me a clear reason." But the hoopoe stayed not long, he (came up and) said: “I have grasped (the knowledge of a thing) which you have not grasped and I have come to you from Saba (Sheba) with true news.” I found a woman ruling over them, and she has been given all things that could be possessed by any ruler of the earth, and she has a great throne." I found her and her people worshipping the sun instead of Allah, and Shaitan has made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and has barred them from (Allahs) Way, so they have no guidance," Al-La (this word has two interpretations) (A) (As Shaitan has barred them from Allahs Way) so that they do not worship (prostrate before) Allah, or (B) So that they may worship (prostrate before) Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what you conceal and what you reveal. (Tafsir At-Tabaree, Vol. 19, Page 149)Allah, La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Lord of the Supreme Throne! Sulaiman said: “We shall see whether you speak the truth or you are (one) of the liars.” Go you with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them, then draw back from them, and see what (answer) they return." She said: "O chiefs! Verily! Here is delivered to me a noble letter,“Verily! It is from Sulaiman, and verily! It (reads): In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful;” Be you not exalted against me, but come to me as Muslims (true believers who submit to Allah with full submission) “She said: “O chiefs! Advise me in (this) case of mine. I decide no case till you are present with me.” They said: “We have great strength, and great ability for war, but it is for you to command; so think over what you will command.” She said: “Verily! Kings, when they enter a town (country), they despoil it, and make the most honourable amongst its people low. And thus they do.” But verily! I am going to send him a present, and see with what (answer) the messengers return.” So when (the messengers with the present) came to Sulaiman, he said: “Will you help me in wealth? What Allah has given me is better than that which He has given you! Nay, you rejoice in your gift!”(Then Sulaiman said to the chief of her messengers who brought the present): "Go back to them. We verily shall come to them with hosts that they cannot resist, and we shall drive them out from there in disgrace, and they will be abased. "He said: “O chiefs! Which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me surrendering themselves in obedience?” An Ifreet (strong) from the jinns said: “I will bring it to you before you rise from your place (council). And verily, I am indeed strong, and trustworthy for such work.” One with whom was knowledge of the Scripture said: “I will bring it to you within the twinkling of an eye!” then when Sulaiman saw it placed before him, he said: “This is by the Grace of my Lord to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! And whoever is grateful, truly, his gratitude is for (the good of) his ownself, and whoever is ungrateful, (he is ungrateful only for the loss of his ownself). Certainly! My Lord is Rich (Free of all wants), Bountiful.” He said: “Disguise her throne for her that we may see whether she will be guided (to recognise her throne), or she will be one of those not guided.” So when she came, it was said (to her): “Is your throne like this?” She said: “(It is) as though it were the very same.” And (Sulaiman said): "Knowledge was bestowed on us before her, and we were submitted to Allah (in Islam as Muslims before her)."And that which she used to worship besides Allah has prevented her (from Islam), for she was of a disbelieving people. It was said to her: “Enter As-Sarh” ((a glass surface with water underneath it) or a palace), but when she saw it, she thought it was a pool, and she (tucked up her clothes) uncovering her legs, Sulaiman said: “Verily, it is Sarh ((a glass surface with water underneath it) or a palace) paved smooth with slab of glass.” She said: “My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, and I submit (in Islam, together with Sulaiman, to Allah, the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists).”

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

This story parallels that in the Second Targum of Esther, or Targum Sheni, and is taken as evidence of the Quran’s non-divine source.
answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Sources/sheba.html
answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Saifullah/sheba.htm
answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Naik/quranclaims2.htm

“At another time, when the heart of Solomon was gladdened with wine, he gave orders for the beasts of the land, the birds of the air, the creeping things of the earth, the demons from above and the Genii, to be brought, that they might dance around him, in order that all the kings waiting upon him might behold his grandeur. And all the royal scribes summoned by their names before him; in fact, all were there except the captives and prisoners and those in charge of them. Just then the Red-cock, enjoying itself, could not be found; and King Solomon said that they should seize and bring it by force, and indeed he sought to kill it. But just then the cock appeared in presence of the King, and said: O Lord, King of the earth! having applied thine ear, listen to my words. It is hardly three months since I made a firm resolution within me that I would not eat a crumb of bread, nor drink a drop of water until I had seen the whole world, and over it make my flight, saying to myself, I must know the city and the kingdom which is not subject to thee, my Lord King. Then I found the fortified city Qîtôr in the Eastern lands, and around it are stones of gold and silver in the streets plentiful as rubbish, and trees planted from the beginning of the world, and rivers to water it, flowing out of the garden of Eden. Many men are there wearing garlands from the garden close by. They shoot arrows, but cannot use the bow. They are ruled by a woman, called Queen of Sheba. Now if it please my Lord King, thy servant, having bound up my girdle, will set out for the fort Qîtôr in Sheba; and having “bound their Kings with chains and their Nobles with links of iron,” will bring them into thy presence. The proposal pleased the King, and the scribes prepared a despatch, which was placed under the bird’s wing, and away it flew high up in the sky. It grew strong surrounded by a crowd of birds, and reached the Fort of Sheba. By chance the Queen of Sheba was out in the morning worshipping the sea; and the air being darkened by the multitude of birds, she became so alarmed as to rend her clothes in trouble and distress. Just then the Cock alighted by her, and she seeing the letter under its wing opened and read it as follows: “King Solomon sendeth to thee his salaam, and saith, The high and holy One hath set me over the beasts of the field, etc.; and the kings of the four Quarters send to ask after my welfare. Now if it please thee to come and ask after my welfare, I will set thee high above them all. But if it please thee not, I will send kings and armies against thee; — the beasts of the field are my people, the birds of the air my riders, the demons and genii thine enemies, — to imprison you, to slay and to feed upon you.” When the Queen of Sheba heard it, she again rent her garments, and sending for her Nobles asked their advice. They knew not Solomon, but advised her to send vessels by the sea, full of beautiful ornaments and gems, together with 6000 boys and girls in purple garments, who had all been born at the same moment; also to send a letter promising to visit him by the end of the year. It was a journey of seven years but she promised to come in three. When at last she came, Solomon sent a messenger shining in brilliant attire, like the morning dawn, to meet her. As they came together, she stepped from her carriage. “Why dost thou thus?” he asked. “Art thou not Solomon?” she said. “Nay, I am but a servant that standeth in his presence.” The queen at once addressed a parable to her followers in compliment to him, and then was led by him to the Court. Solomon hearing she had come, arose and sat down in the Palace of glass. When the Queen of Sheba saw it, she thought that the glass floor was water, and so in crossing over lifted up her garments. When Solomon seeing the hair about her legs, cried out to her: Thy beauty is the beauty of women, but thy hair is as the hair of men; hair is good in man, but in woman it is not becoming. On this she said: My Lord, I have three enigmas to put to thee. If thou canst answer them, I shall know that thou art a wise man: but if not thou art like all around thee. When he had answered all three, she replied, astonished: Blessed be the Lord thy God, who hath placed thee on the throne that thou mightest rule with right and justice. And she gave to Solomon much gold and silver; and he to her whatsoever she desired.”

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

A counter argument to the idea that Muhammad derived the story from Jewish sources is produced by Dr Saifullah and the Islamic-Awareness team.
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBsheba.html

The crux of the argument lies with the dating of the Targum of Sheni. It is commonly believed that this targum dates to around the seventh to ninth century, thus making it too late to account for the parallelism with the Quran.

According to Saifullah, quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia:
“Targum Sheni (the second [Targum]: date about 800), containing material not germane to the Esther story. This may be characterized as a genuine and exuberant midrash.[14]
In the case of the Targum Sheni, the internal evidence is used to date the FINAL REDACTION (emphasis mine) which is put in end of the seventh century or the beginning of the eighth century:”

Note that the dating is only of the FINAL REDACTION of the targum, not of the midrash enclose therein.

Saifullah goes on to report, citing Encyclopaedia Judaica:
“The date of the work cannot be determined exactly. The view of S. Gelbhaus that it belongs to the amoraic period, in the fourth century, is disproved by the fact that it contains later material. P. Cassel dates it in the sixth century and explains its mention of Edom to be the rule of Justinian (527-565). However, this view of Edom can also apply to other periods. A basis for dating was also found among the accusations made by Haman: “They come to the synagogue… and curse our king and our ministers.” This statement is regarded as an allusion to the suspicion that Jews combine a curse with the prayer said in the synagogue for the welfare of the kingdom. Since this prayer is thought to have been composed in the eighth century it is conjectured that the Targum Sheni postdates that century. L. Munk puts its date still later, in the 11th century, but he gives no proof. It seems that the most acceptable view is that which places its composition at the end of the seventh or the beginning of the eighth century, a view that is strengthened by its relationship to the Pirkei de-R. Eliezer. Regarding its relationship to the Targum Rishon, there are features common to both Targums, but there are also many differences, and there are many aggadot in the Targum Rishon not included in the Targum Sheni. The view of P. Churgin may be accepted that they are two independent compositions.”

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

One must remind Dr Saifullah and his supporters that final redaction is not composition. It is merely the date of final compilation and editing of earlier works. Dr Saifullah’s dating of Targum Sheni has been answered by the answering-islam team.

“The Targum of Esther is mentioned in the Jerusalem Talmud and cited in the Tractrate Sopherim (Xlll:6). Thus its existence is in at least Amoraic times. { i.e. 4th Century }
In another place in his introduction Professor Grossfeld states in connection with the origin of the Targum that it: Must have begun before the Christian era.

On the same subject the Jewish Encyclopedia 1925 edition by Funk & Wagnalls Company, Vol 12, p 63 states:

In the Masseket Soferim (lc) a quotation from the Targum Sheni to Esther lll is introduced by the words ‘Tirgem Tab Yosef’ (Rabbi Joseph has translated)

So the Targum, having been quoted in the Jerusalem Talmud, must have had existence at least before the time the Jerusalem Talmud was finally concluded.

On the subject of the dates of the Jerusalem Talmud the Encyclopedea Judaica 1996 edition, Vol 15, p 772, states:

Jerusalem Talmud was compiled about a century before the Babylonian in 500CE. Its close was entirely due to the situation which prevailed in (Erez) Israel. The activities of the main school, that of Tiberius, came to an end in 421 (CE)

This again supports the claim that the Targum existed in pre-Islamic times and at least early enough for the legend of the Queen of Sheba to have travelled to wherever the Jewish community had dispersed throughout Arabia.”

There is also evidence that the story of the Queen of Sheba’s hairy legs was an ancient Arabian tale:
“Concerning the legend of the queen’s hair on her legs, Ginsberg (legends Vol VI p289 n41) links it with an ancient Arabic legend about the story.”
answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Naik/quranclaims2.htm

Conclusion
One cannot be too dogmatic about this parallelism as the dating of Targum Sheni is not beyond doubt. Nevertheless, it is likely that the story of the Queen of Sheba pre-dates the Quran as the targum is mentioned in the Jerusalem Talmud. It is also clear that the post-Quranic dates often ascribed to Targum Sheni are that of the final redaction and not that of the Queen of Sheba myths.

Next topic: The problematic parallelisms.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

arthra:

I think since the time of George Sale you could read that most Christians believed there were influences on the Qur’an from apocryphal or Talmudic sources and so that’s over about two hundred years ago of this supposition so it’s not a particularly original idea … however I have yet to find any historical evidence confirming this.

There’s an essay you can peruse at

salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawi/Quran/Sources/Bibleborro.html

Which I think should be read by interested parties.

• Art

I read the original from the Islamic-Awareness site long ago. From memory, I found two large flaws in the Muslim arguments:

1. The historical facts are wrong. The hadiths and sira do report that there were Christians and Jews in and around Mecca during Muhammad’s lifetime.
2. They commit the logical fallacy of the red herring in that they argue the point that there is no extant Christian manuscripts (written in Arabic). This is ‘beside the point’ as the contention in the Quran and ancillary Islamic literature claim that Muhammad ‘heard’ these parallel stories. It wasn’t the contention that Muhammad READ and directly copied these stories. One suspect the Islamists have forgotten the Quranic verses 25:5 and 16.101-104.

Ciudate,
Mata Moro

 

[inJESUS]

Waraqa ben Nawfal used to translate from Hebrew to Arabic .

Hey Rodrigo , this is for you and your patience :bowdown2: hehe

 

[inJESUS]

Hey Rodrigo…we havent seen you for quite some time…Hope everything is ok…God bless…