C
Cyber_Knight
Guest
Dont worry… Rodrigo is busy with dog and all.
- Status
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Dear inJesus and Cyber,
My apologies. I’ve been rather busy debating a rather obnoxious person in another forum regarding the inheritance laws in the Quran.
ABRAHAM AND THE IDOLS
The parallel between the Quran and the Midrash is given below.
Midrash B’reishit Rabbah 38:13:
And Haran died in front of Terach his father. R. Hiyya the grandson of R. Ada of Yafo [said]: Terach was an idolater. One day he went out somewhere, and put Avraham in charge of selling [the idols]. When a man would come who wanted to purchase, he would say to him: “How old are you”? [The customer] would answer: “Fifty or sixty years old”. [Avraham] would say: “Woe to the man who is sixty years old And desires to worship something one day old.” [The customer] would be ashamed and leave. One day a woman came, carrying in her hand a basket of fine flour. She said: “Here, offer it before them.” Abraham siezed a stick, And smashed all the idols, And placed the stick in the hand of the biggest of them. When his father came, he said to him: “Who did this to them”? [Avraham] said:, “Would I hide anything from my father? a woman came, carrying in her hand a basket of fine flour. She said: “Here, offer it before them.” When I offered it, one god said: “I will eat first,” And another said, “No, I will eat first.” Then the biggest of them rose up and smashed all the others. [His father] said:, “Are you making fun of me? Do they know anything?” [Avraham] answered: Shall your ears not hear what your mouth is saying? He took [Avraham] and handed him over to Nimrod. [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the fire”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship the water which extinguishes the fire.” [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the water”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship the clouds which bear the water.” [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the clouds”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship the wind which scatters the clouds.” [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the wind”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship man who withstands the wind.” [Nimrod] said to him: “You are speaking nonsense; I only bow to the fire. “I will throw you into it. “Let the G-d to Whom you bow come and save you from it.” Haran was there. He said [to himself] Either way; If Avraham is successful, I will say that I am with Avraham; If Nimrod is successful, I will say that I am with Nimrod. Once Avraham went into the furnace and was saved, They asked [Haran]: “With which one are you [allied]”? He said to them: “I am with Avraham.” They took him and threw him into the fire and his bowels were burned out. He came out and died in front of Terach his father. This is the meaning of the verse: And Haran died in front of Terach.
Soorat al-Anbiya 21:51-70:
Before that, we granted Abraham his guidance and understanding, for we were fully aware of him. He said to his father and his people, “What are these statues to which you are devoting yourselves?” They said, “We found our parents worshipping them.” He said, “Indeed, you and your parents have gone totally astray.” They said, “Are you telling us the truth, or are you playing?” He said, "Your only Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, who created them. This is the testimony to which I bear witness. “I swear by GOD, I have a plan to deal with your statues, as soon as you leave.” He broke them into pieces, except for a big one, that they may refer to it. They said, “Whoever did this to our gods is really a transgressor.” They said, “We heard a youth threaten them; he is called Abraham.” They said, “Bring him before the eyes of all the people, that they may bear witness.” They said, “Did you do this to our gods, O Abraham?” He said, “It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak.” They were taken aback, and said to themselves, “Indeed, you are the ones who have been transgressing.” Yet, they reverted to their old ideas: “You know full well that these cannot speak.” He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you? “You have incurred shame by worshipping idols beside GOD. Do you not understand?” They said, “Burn him and support your gods, if this is what you decide to do.” We said, “O fire, be cool and safe for Abraham.” Thus, they schemed against him, but we made them the losers.
geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/borrow.html
The claim is that this parallelism originated from the Midrash as an invention of a rabbi:
“It will no doubt come as a shock for some to discover that the Qur’an which claims to be “divine revelation” contains one such Jewish legend and presents it as being an historical fact concerning the life of Abraham. However this story is a well known illustration invented by Rabbi Hiyya in the 2nd century CE; it is recorded in the Midrash Rabbah Genesis and all authorities agree that it was never mean’t to be considered historical.
cont
My apologies. I’ve been rather busy debating a rather obnoxious person in another forum regarding the inheritance laws in the Quran.
ABRAHAM AND THE IDOLS
The parallel between the Quran and the Midrash is given below.
Midrash B’reishit Rabbah 38:13:
And Haran died in front of Terach his father. R. Hiyya the grandson of R. Ada of Yafo [said]: Terach was an idolater. One day he went out somewhere, and put Avraham in charge of selling [the idols]. When a man would come who wanted to purchase, he would say to him: “How old are you”? [The customer] would answer: “Fifty or sixty years old”. [Avraham] would say: “Woe to the man who is sixty years old And desires to worship something one day old.” [The customer] would be ashamed and leave. One day a woman came, carrying in her hand a basket of fine flour. She said: “Here, offer it before them.” Abraham siezed a stick, And smashed all the idols, And placed the stick in the hand of the biggest of them. When his father came, he said to him: “Who did this to them”? [Avraham] said:, “Would I hide anything from my father? a woman came, carrying in her hand a basket of fine flour. She said: “Here, offer it before them.” When I offered it, one god said: “I will eat first,” And another said, “No, I will eat first.” Then the biggest of them rose up and smashed all the others. [His father] said:, “Are you making fun of me? Do they know anything?” [Avraham] answered: Shall your ears not hear what your mouth is saying? He took [Avraham] and handed him over to Nimrod. [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the fire”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship the water which extinguishes the fire.” [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the water”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship the clouds which bear the water.” [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the clouds”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship the wind which scatters the clouds.” [Nimrod] said to him: “Let us worship the wind”. [Avraham said to him: “If so, let us worship man who withstands the wind.” [Nimrod] said to him: “You are speaking nonsense; I only bow to the fire. “I will throw you into it. “Let the G-d to Whom you bow come and save you from it.” Haran was there. He said [to himself] Either way; If Avraham is successful, I will say that I am with Avraham; If Nimrod is successful, I will say that I am with Nimrod. Once Avraham went into the furnace and was saved, They asked [Haran]: “With which one are you [allied]”? He said to them: “I am with Avraham.” They took him and threw him into the fire and his bowels were burned out. He came out and died in front of Terach his father. This is the meaning of the verse: And Haran died in front of Terach.
Soorat al-Anbiya 21:51-70:
Before that, we granted Abraham his guidance and understanding, for we were fully aware of him. He said to his father and his people, “What are these statues to which you are devoting yourselves?” They said, “We found our parents worshipping them.” He said, “Indeed, you and your parents have gone totally astray.” They said, “Are you telling us the truth, or are you playing?” He said, "Your only Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, who created them. This is the testimony to which I bear witness. “I swear by GOD, I have a plan to deal with your statues, as soon as you leave.” He broke them into pieces, except for a big one, that they may refer to it. They said, “Whoever did this to our gods is really a transgressor.” They said, “We heard a youth threaten them; he is called Abraham.” They said, “Bring him before the eyes of all the people, that they may bear witness.” They said, “Did you do this to our gods, O Abraham?” He said, “It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak.” They were taken aback, and said to themselves, “Indeed, you are the ones who have been transgressing.” Yet, they reverted to their old ideas: “You know full well that these cannot speak.” He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you? “You have incurred shame by worshipping idols beside GOD. Do you not understand?” They said, “Burn him and support your gods, if this is what you decide to do.” We said, “O fire, be cool and safe for Abraham.” Thus, they schemed against him, but we made them the losers.
geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/borrow.html
The claim is that this parallelism originated from the Midrash as an invention of a rabbi:
“It will no doubt come as a shock for some to discover that the Qur’an which claims to be “divine revelation” contains one such Jewish legend and presents it as being an historical fact concerning the life of Abraham. However this story is a well known illustration invented by Rabbi Hiyya in the 2nd century CE; it is recorded in the Midrash Rabbah Genesis and all authorities agree that it was never mean’t to be considered historical.
cont
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
The Qur’anic account of Abraham and the idols commences in Sura 6:74 where Abraham is quoted as saying “Takest thou idols for gods?” and this theme is then expanded in Sura 21:51-71. It is exactly the same theme of the Midrashic legend where Abraham takes issue over the idols of his father.
The shared themes in the Midrashic account
The Midrashic account is given here and the Qur’anic equivalent can be found in the ayats in the brackets.
Abraham’s father accused of being an idolater: “Terah (Abraham’s father) was a manufacturer of idols” ie. He was an idolater. (52)
“He once went away somewhere and left Abraham…” (57)
Abraham breaks all the idols except the biggest: “So he took a stick, broke them, (the idols) and put the the stick in the hand of the largest.” (58)
“When his father returned he demanded, ‘What have you done to them?’” (59) (In the Qur’anic account this demand is made by his father and the people.)
Abraham claims: “Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them.” (63)
Abraham is seized and delivered up for judgement: “Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.” (68) The Qur’an does not mention by name who was to punish Abraham.
Abraham is saved from the fire: “When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved…” (69)
All the above points are unique both to the Qur’anic and mythical midrashic accounts. They do not appear in the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians.”
answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Sources/abraham.html
cont
The shared themes in the Midrashic account
The Midrashic account is given here and the Qur’anic equivalent can be found in the ayats in the brackets.
Abraham’s father accused of being an idolater: “Terah (Abraham’s father) was a manufacturer of idols” ie. He was an idolater. (52)
“He once went away somewhere and left Abraham…” (57)
Abraham breaks all the idols except the biggest: “So he took a stick, broke them, (the idols) and put the the stick in the hand of the largest.” (58)
“When his father returned he demanded, ‘What have you done to them?’” (59) (In the Qur’anic account this demand is made by his father and the people.)
Abraham claims: “Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them.” (63)
Abraham is seized and delivered up for judgement: “Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.” (68) The Qur’an does not mention by name who was to punish Abraham.
Abraham is saved from the fire: “When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved…” (69)
All the above points are unique both to the Qur’anic and mythical midrashic accounts. They do not appear in the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians.”
answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Sources/abraham.html
cont
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Dr Saifullah and the Islamic-awareness team have sought to disparage the above evidence, and these objections have been addressed by the freethoughtmecca team.
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBrabbah.html
geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/sayfallaah.html
a. Additions (i.e. in the parashiyyot) and alterations may have been made to the text of the Bereshit Rabbah (i.e. Genesis Rabbah) after its redaction in the sixth century CE.
This parallelism is a complex issue. However, it is clear the story of Abraham disdaining idol worship, destroying idol, and been thrown into the fire pre-dates Islam in various Judeo-Christian sources. It is not the contention that Muhammad copied from these texts, but that he heard this story or variants thereof from other people, probably Jews and Christians. The Judeo-Christian sources used as evidence are merely evidence of the antiquity of this story.
One is forced to wonder how a story invented by Rabbi Hiyya in the 2nd century CE managed to find its way into a source purported to be of divine origin. Allah seems to prone to co-invention of many JC stories not believed to be of direct revelation by Yahweh or Jehoveh to any pre-Islamic prophets.
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBrabbah.html
geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/sayfallaah.html
a. Additions (i.e. in the parashiyyot) and alterations may have been made to the text of the Bereshit Rabbah (i.e. Genesis Rabbah) after its redaction in the sixth century CE.
- Redaction does not mean the date of origin of the text.
- The Abraham and the idols story is not in the parashiyyot but the Noach. This story is not in the list of texts added or edited.
- Historical evidence from various sources evidence a pre-Islamic date for the Bereshit Rabbah. For example, St Jerome mentions the Jewish interpretation of Genesis 11:28 in respect to Abraham refusal to worship fire and his consumption by fire. Also, the Book of Jubilees mention Abraham’s dislike of idol worship, and the Babylonian Talmud mentions Nimrod casting Abraham into the fire.
- It is not asserted that Muhammad copied from the Bereshit Rabbah, rather he heard this JC story from others, possibly Jews and Christians. The Bereshit Rabbah is merely evidence to date this particular JC story. There are other JC sources as listed above.
- Again, the charge is not that Muhammad referred to any particular text, although the Bereshit Rabbah’s version comes closest to the Quranic version.
This parallelism is a complex issue. However, it is clear the story of Abraham disdaining idol worship, destroying idol, and been thrown into the fire pre-dates Islam in various Judeo-Christian sources. It is not the contention that Muhammad copied from these texts, but that he heard this story or variants thereof from other people, probably Jews and Christians. The Judeo-Christian sources used as evidence are merely evidence of the antiquity of this story.
One is forced to wonder how a story invented by Rabbi Hiyya in the 2nd century CE managed to find its way into a source purported to be of divine origin. Allah seems to prone to co-invention of many JC stories not believed to be of direct revelation by Yahweh or Jehoveh to any pre-Islamic prophets.
I
inJESUS
Guest
the mathematical absurdity?Rodrigo Bivar said:
nice to see you again
I
inJESUS
Guest
Great posts, as usual
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
CONCLUSION
This topic is solely about the parallelism between the Quran and previous scriptures. The similarities between the Quran and previous scriptures have been noticed since the beginning of Islam. However, the Judeo-Christian tales and their Quranic counterparts do not always match. There are three explanations for this:
None of the early Christian texts support the Muslim contention of corruption of the Judeo-Christian scriptures because Muslims fail to distinguish between apocryphal and canonical works. They fail to see the difference between mainstream texts and cultic/Gnostic texts.
One really needs either the original manuscripts or a succession of early manuscripts to show how the corruption has occurred. However, since the original manuscripts are long lost, this avenue is unavailable to Muslims. The next possibility is to examine the change in the succession of early manuscripts – the historical approach. However, as far as is known, the Judeo-Christian scriptures are remarkably similar to historical manuscripts. The next possibility is to examine the extra-scriptural writings of the early Rabbis and early Church fathers. Alas, no irrefutable evidence has yet surfaced that would lead one to conclude the Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted.
Since Muslims have been unable to produce even an irrefutable tangible evidence of corruption in the original Judeo-Christian scriptures, one must conclude that the charge of corruption is UNPROVEN.
However, the parallelism between the Quran and the Judeo-Christian scriptures is undeniable. The main parallelisms have been mentioned in this set of articles. I have ignored other charges such as the seven sleepers in the cave ayat 18; 8-26 (as per the seven sleepers of Ephesus); the story of the angels Harut and Marut in ayat 2;102 (as per Midrash Yalkut chapter 44 with the angels Shamhazai and Azael: ref Tisdall truthnet.org/islam/src-chp3.htm);
and God holding Mt Sinai over the Israelites in ayat 7; 171 (as per the second century Jewish apocrypha Abodah Sarah).
Robert Morey has listed some other parallelisms also. bible.ca/islam/islam-koran-fairy-tales-dr-morey.htm
To reiterate, the main parallelisms are: Talking baby Jesus; Mary daughter of Amran & sister of Aaron; Sanhedrin 37a; the raven and the burial of Abel; Mary, Jesus and the Trinity; Jesus and the clay birds; Mary’s upbringing & her relationship with Zachariah; Mary, Jesus & the palm tree; Satan’s refusal to prostrate to Adam; the Queen of Sheba; and Abraham & the idols.
The point that becomes apparent is that these parallelisms are either apocryphal, heretical, commentaries by religious figures, or mere folk tales. Or, in the case of the Trinity, a clear misunderstanding of Christian doctrine.
Now, one must stress that the charge is not that Muhammad copied from previous scripture, but that he incorporated stories he heard from other people. Some of these tales he probably heard from the Christian slave of Bukhari 4:56:814 whom Ibn Ishaq named as Jabr for which ayat 16.101-104 was probably revealed. Waqidi names this Christian as ibn Qumta. Ibn Ishaq also recounts the story of how three Christians, Abu Haritha Ibn
Thus, it is quite conclusive that the parallelism, particularly the imperfect parallelisms, point to Muhammad and not any divine source as being the originator of the Quran.
So, is the Quran corrupted? Strictly speaking no. The Quran was not corrupted but it was false from the start.
Chau,
Rodrigo
This topic is solely about the parallelism between the Quran and previous scriptures. The similarities between the Quran and previous scriptures have been noticed since the beginning of Islam. However, the Judeo-Christian tales and their Quranic counterparts do not always match. There are three explanations for this:
- The original Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted (as Muslims like to claim).
- Muhammad imperfectly borrowed from the Judeo-Christian scriptures.
- The Quran was corrupted.
None of the early Christian texts support the Muslim contention of corruption of the Judeo-Christian scriptures because Muslims fail to distinguish between apocryphal and canonical works. They fail to see the difference between mainstream texts and cultic/Gnostic texts.
One really needs either the original manuscripts or a succession of early manuscripts to show how the corruption has occurred. However, since the original manuscripts are long lost, this avenue is unavailable to Muslims. The next possibility is to examine the change in the succession of early manuscripts – the historical approach. However, as far as is known, the Judeo-Christian scriptures are remarkably similar to historical manuscripts. The next possibility is to examine the extra-scriptural writings of the early Rabbis and early Church fathers. Alas, no irrefutable evidence has yet surfaced that would lead one to conclude the Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted.
Since Muslims have been unable to produce even an irrefutable tangible evidence of corruption in the original Judeo-Christian scriptures, one must conclude that the charge of corruption is UNPROVEN.
However, the parallelism between the Quran and the Judeo-Christian scriptures is undeniable. The main parallelisms have been mentioned in this set of articles. I have ignored other charges such as the seven sleepers in the cave ayat 18; 8-26 (as per the seven sleepers of Ephesus); the story of the angels Harut and Marut in ayat 2;102 (as per Midrash Yalkut chapter 44 with the angels Shamhazai and Azael: ref Tisdall truthnet.org/islam/src-chp3.htm);
and God holding Mt Sinai over the Israelites in ayat 7; 171 (as per the second century Jewish apocrypha Abodah Sarah).Robert Morey has listed some other parallelisms also. bible.ca/islam/islam-koran-fairy-tales-dr-morey.htm
To reiterate, the main parallelisms are: Talking baby Jesus; Mary daughter of Amran & sister of Aaron; Sanhedrin 37a; the raven and the burial of Abel; Mary, Jesus and the Trinity; Jesus and the clay birds; Mary’s upbringing & her relationship with Zachariah; Mary, Jesus & the palm tree; Satan’s refusal to prostrate to Adam; the Queen of Sheba; and Abraham & the idols.
The point that becomes apparent is that these parallelisms are either apocryphal, heretical, commentaries by religious figures, or mere folk tales. Or, in the case of the Trinity, a clear misunderstanding of Christian doctrine.
Now, one must stress that the charge is not that Muhammad copied from previous scripture, but that he incorporated stories he heard from other people. Some of these tales he probably heard from the Christian slave of Bukhari 4:56:814 whom Ibn Ishaq named as Jabr for which ayat 16.101-104 was probably revealed. Waqidi names this Christian as ibn Qumta. Ibn Ishaq also recounts the story of how three Christians, Abu Haritha Ibn
Alqama, Al-Aqib Abdul-Masih and Al-Ayham al-Said, spoke to Muhammad regarding such Christian subjects as the Trinity, Jesus speaking in infancy, and Jesus animating clay birds. Ibn Ishaq also claimed that as a result of these discussions, the Qur’an was revealed addressing all these arguments – leading to the conclusion that Muhammad incorporated Judeo-Christian tales he heard from other people.Thus, it is quite conclusive that the parallelism, particularly the imperfect parallelisms, point to Muhammad and not any divine source as being the originator of the Quran.
So, is the Quran corrupted? Strictly speaking no. The Quran was not corrupted but it was false from the start.
Chau,
Rodrigo
I
inJESUS
Guest
Hey Rodrigo, thx for this thread…no one is objecting coz it is the truth…yet after all this, quran is from God…ears that don’t listen, eyes that don’t see . You have such a patience! i peronally dust off my sandals explaining the Bible for them…it’s like teaching a cow how to fly.
thx again
thx again
I
inJESUS
Guest
Rodrigo Bivar:
well thou there is evidence of corruption, but who cares…it started out of corruption. Great post Rodrigo.
C
Cyber_Knight
Guest
After cannot refute what Rodrigo posted here, someone (who loves jumping around) accusing me as Roddie’s disciple or Roddie in a different ID… You are right InJesus…these guys are so ‘rock’ and Rodrigo just kick ***!!!Hey Rodrigo, thx for this thread…no one is objecting coz it is the truth…yet after all this, quran is from God…ears that don’t listen, eyes that don’t see . You have such a patience! i peronally dust off my sandals explaining the Bible for them…it’s like teaching a cow how to fly.
thx again
Thank you Rodrigo for great thread!
I
inJESUS
Guest
Cyber Knight:
here it’s 7:20 AM! am going to church then to office miss you all …kisses…
hey i see you are all onlineAfter cannot refute what Rodrigo posted here, someone (who loves jumping around) accusing me as Roddie’s disciple or Roddie in a different ID… You are right InJesus…these guys are so ‘rock’ and Rodrigo just kick ***!!!
Thank you Rodrigo for great thread!
here it’s 7:20 AM! am going to church then to office miss you all …kisses…
B
Booklover
Guest
Rodrigo Bivar:
:clapping:
Vickie
BULLSEYE!! Excellent post!
:clapping:Vickie
E
exoflare
Guest
Rodrigo Bivar:
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed all this. But I think a lot of others on here already did as well. In any case, good observations here.
G
George_Waters
Guest
Rodrigo Bivar:
How very convenient for them, don’t you think?
I
inJESUS
Guest
mohammad himself attested the Bible within his hands…and we all know we have the same one even before mohammad
and the Dead Sea Scrolls was a great discovery…and discoveries will never stop
I
inJESUS
Guest
George Waters:
what did u expect?How very convenient for them, don’t you think?
I
inJESUS
Guest
a boost to this site since muslims take it at face value that quran is from God when many of his passages are from legends
Refute it if you can…
Refute it if you can…
C
Cyber_Knight
Guest
soon… the bible verses expert and his loyal companion will jump over herea boost to this site since muslims take it at face value that quran is from God when many of his passages are from legends
Refute it if you can…
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
THE WEALTH OF KORAH
The Torah and Mishnah tells the story of Korah and his rebellion against Moses (Numbers 16:1-35). This story is also replicated in the Quran.
al-Qasas 28:76
ان قارون كان من قوم موسى فبغى عليهم واتيناه من الكنوز ماان مفاتحه لتنوء بالعصبة اولي القوة اذ قال له قومه لاتفرح ان الله لايحب الفرحين
Inna qaroona kana min qawmi moosa fabagha AAalayhim waataynahu mina alkunoozi ma inna mafatihahu latanoo-o bialAAusbati olee alquwwati ith qala lahu qawmuhu la tafrah inna Allaha la yuhibbu alfariheena
That Qaroon/Korah was from Moses’ nation, so he oppressed/transgressed on them, and We gave/brought him from the treasures what that its keys (is a) burdensome weight with (for) the group/band/company of strength/power , when his nation said to him: “Do not rejoice/delight , that God does not love/like the rejoiced/delighted .”
The parallelism between the Quran and the Gemara has not escaped noticed. geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/chartumim.html
“Well, those certainly sound like some heavy keys! As it turns out, this tale about Korah’s heavy keys is not found in the Bible, but it is mentioned in Talmud Bavli. The story is found in both Sanhedrin 110a and Pesachim 119a, with only minor differences. Let us take a look at the version in tractate Sanhedrin:
V’amar Rabi Levi: “masoi sh’lsh me’ot pardot l’vanot hayu maftchot shel beyt g’nazaiv shel Qorach, V’khulhu aqlidei v’qilfei d’ghilda.”
And Rabbi Levi said: “The keys to Korah’s treasure house was a load for 300 white mules and the keys and locks were leather.”
It is clear that the Islamic literature, be it the Qur’an or the extracanonical traditions and commentaries, show a great deal of Judeo-Christian influence.”
A check of Tractate Sanhedrin 110a shows this to be indeed the case. come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_110.html
“Riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt:28 Resh Lakish said: This refers to Korah’s wealth. And all the substance that was at their feet:29 R. Eleazar said: This refers to a man’s wealth, which puts him on his feet. R. Levi said: The keys of Korah’s treasure house were a load for three hundred white mules,30 though all the keys and locks were of leather.31
R. Hama son of R. Hanina said: Three treasures did Joseph hide in Egypt: one was revealed to Korah; one to Antoninus the son of Severus,32 and the third is stored up for the righteous for the future time.”
Professor Shenan also noted that the Jewish sages had two theories about how Korah acquired his wealth.
“According to the first: “Joseph hid three treasures in Egypt. One was revealed to Korach, one was revealed to Antoninus son of Asviros, and one is hidden away for the righteous in the end of days” (Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 119a). Joseph’s great wealth, from when he gathered “all the money which was in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan” (Bereishit 47:14)”
“According to the other opinion, Pharaoh’s wealth reached Korach since he was Pharaoh’s finance minister, “and he had in his hands the keys to his treasures” (Bamidbar Rabba 18:15).”
Here is Professor Shenan’s conclusion:
“Why do the Sages wish to present Korach as extremely wealthy? It is difficult to find a basis for this in the biblical story. There it is written that the mouth of the earth opened in order to swallow Korach and his followers, their homes “and every man that was for Korach and all the property” (Bamidbar 16:32) and there is not enough in these words to find a basis for the assertion that he was extremely wealthy.”
Thus, it can be seen that there is little or no basis in the Bible for Korah to be a wealthy man, especially since he fled with Moses during the Exodus. It is unlikely, although Jewish tradition has it, that the Hebrews would have fled in haste from a vengeful Pharaoh and his army carrying a load of treasure.
So where did Muhammad get his idea about Korah being so wealthy that the keys to his treasure house themselves were so heavy that they required the strength of a body of strong men?
Apparently Allah was none other than Rabbi Levi, a third century Haggadist who lived in Palestine, who made up the story of Korah’s keys.
The Torah and Mishnah tells the story of Korah and his rebellion against Moses (Numbers 16:1-35). This story is also replicated in the Quran.
al-Qasas 28:76
ان قارون كان من قوم موسى فبغى عليهم واتيناه من الكنوز ماان مفاتحه لتنوء بالعصبة اولي القوة اذ قال له قومه لاتفرح ان الله لايحب الفرحين
Inna qaroona kana min qawmi moosa fabagha AAalayhim waataynahu mina alkunoozi ma inna mafatihahu latanoo-o bialAAusbati olee alquwwati ith qala lahu qawmuhu la tafrah inna Allaha la yuhibbu alfariheena
That Qaroon/Korah was from Moses’ nation, so he oppressed/transgressed on them, and We gave/brought him from the treasures what that its keys (is a) burdensome weight with (for) the group/band/company of strength/power , when his nation said to him: “Do not rejoice/delight , that God does not love/like the rejoiced/delighted .”
The parallelism between the Quran and the Gemara has not escaped noticed. geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/chartumim.html
“Well, those certainly sound like some heavy keys! As it turns out, this tale about Korah’s heavy keys is not found in the Bible, but it is mentioned in Talmud Bavli. The story is found in both Sanhedrin 110a and Pesachim 119a, with only minor differences. Let us take a look at the version in tractate Sanhedrin:
V’amar Rabi Levi: “masoi sh’lsh me’ot pardot l’vanot hayu maftchot shel beyt g’nazaiv shel Qorach, V’khulhu aqlidei v’qilfei d’ghilda.”
And Rabbi Levi said: “The keys to Korah’s treasure house was a load for 300 white mules and the keys and locks were leather.”
It is clear that the Islamic literature, be it the Qur’an or the extracanonical traditions and commentaries, show a great deal of Judeo-Christian influence.”
A check of Tractate Sanhedrin 110a shows this to be indeed the case. come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_110.html
“Riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt:28 Resh Lakish said: This refers to Korah’s wealth. And all the substance that was at their feet:29 R. Eleazar said: This refers to a man’s wealth, which puts him on his feet. R. Levi said: The keys of Korah’s treasure house were a load for three hundred white mules,30 though all the keys and locks were of leather.31
R. Hama son of R. Hanina said: Three treasures did Joseph hide in Egypt: one was revealed to Korah; one to Antoninus the son of Severus,32 and the third is stored up for the righteous for the future time.”
- Eccl. V, 12.
- Deut. XI, 6.
- This of course is not to be taken literally.
- Instead of metal, so as to be light in weight, yet they amounted to such a load.
Professor Shenan also noted that the Jewish sages had two theories about how Korah acquired his wealth.
“According to the first: “Joseph hid three treasures in Egypt. One was revealed to Korach, one was revealed to Antoninus son of Asviros, and one is hidden away for the righteous in the end of days” (Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 119a). Joseph’s great wealth, from when he gathered “all the money which was in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan” (Bereishit 47:14)”
“According to the other opinion, Pharaoh’s wealth reached Korach since he was Pharaoh’s finance minister, “and he had in his hands the keys to his treasures” (Bamidbar Rabba 18:15).”
Here is Professor Shenan’s conclusion:
“Why do the Sages wish to present Korach as extremely wealthy? It is difficult to find a basis for this in the biblical story. There it is written that the mouth of the earth opened in order to swallow Korach and his followers, their homes “and every man that was for Korach and all the property” (Bamidbar 16:32) and there is not enough in these words to find a basis for the assertion that he was extremely wealthy.”
Thus, it can be seen that there is little or no basis in the Bible for Korah to be a wealthy man, especially since he fled with Moses during the Exodus. It is unlikely, although Jewish tradition has it, that the Hebrews would have fled in haste from a vengeful Pharaoh and his army carrying a load of treasure.
So where did Muhammad get his idea about Korah being so wealthy that the keys to his treasure house themselves were so heavy that they required the strength of a body of strong men?
Apparently Allah was none other than Rabbi Levi, a third century Haggadist who lived in Palestine, who made up the story of Korah’s keys.
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