Parallellism between Mani and Muhammad

[french]

He did exactly that what a prophet was supposed to do.
He did exactly that what a messenger was supposed to do.

We don’t need magic tricks from him to believe in him. Just a logical reasoning will do. We get that reasonings in Quran more than enough.

LOL did what a prophet was supposed to do??

a Prophet is supposed to follow the word of God just as everyone else does. but your prophet had 12 wives, when quran says to have 4.

a Prophet sends a message and does not change their mind every 10 seconds. they don’t one minute say “face Jerusalem” and the next say “face mecca…”

as for miracles being performed… Deuteronomy 18 tells us that we can know if someone is a Prophet by if they 1. can perform miracles and 2. prophesy the future. However, the Bible also tells us that false prophets can do that too.

if someone claims to be a prophet and can NOT perform miracles or fortell the future… then they are not a prophet. no matter what!

 

[Khalfan]

hola Khalfan,

there is no need to insult… lets not say things like ‘stupid’ or imply that not accepting your position is the same as not thinking…

I am sorry about that. In fact I experience a lot of insult on Islam and Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) in this forum. That’s a sad situation. Howmuch ever a Christian insult Mohamed (pbuh), a Muslim cannot insult Jesus (pbuh) or Mary (ra).

so if you will allow me to say some things… i think you might be confused about some issues and perhaps i can help… for example: ‘theophilus’ is not a person… it is a title meaning ‘friend of God’ and it was used as a salutation by St. Luke to the readership more generally and to the believers of his day (to whom he was writing directly) more specifically.

newadvent.org/cathen/14625b.htm

Theophilus:

Patriarch of Alexandria (385-412). Concerning the extraction and early life of Theophilus we have but scanty information.

newadvent.org/cathen/14625a.htm

Bishop of Antioch. Eusebius in his “Chronicle” places the name of Theophilus against that of Pope Soter (169-77), and that of Maximinus, Theophilus’s successor, against the name of Eleutherus (177-93).

Theophilus existed in either the 2nd or the 4th centuries.

St. Luke was was a disciple of Paul and lived in the first Christian community founded by the disciples, in his opening he explains that he decided to write down the recent oral tradition from the disciples and apostles.

Who wrote gospel of Luke?

“The author’s name does not appear in the book, but much unmistakable evidence points to Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1529)”

It is just an assumption that St. Luke wrote it.

Where is the Spiritual Inspiration? Why he needed oral tradition If the very God/Holy Spirit was helping him?

Since it is made based on oral tradition and human understandings, it can contain human errors.

Luke 24:46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

Luke 24:46 says that it is written in the Law of Moses (i.e., the Torah) that Jesus will die and resurrect on the third day. Where in the entire Old Testament (not just in the 5 books of Moses that make up the Law of Moses or the Torah) do you have that? Show me one Old Testament verse that prophesized about Jesus’ third day resurrection!

determining spiritual inspiration is not impossible, but it is exclusive. the apostles taught that no scripture was brought by man, instead men spoke as if carried along by the spirit. they also taught that the apostles have the power to determine spiritual inspiration… this is why the Church has the exclusive responsibility to determine inspiration.

Spiritual Inspiriation is a super natural concept. Unless you have super natural power, you can’t mesure it in work of spirit. What you can’t do is assuming.

You cannot say any of the sects in Christianity can claim Spiritual help. Because Catholics claim it. SDA claim it. Pentacost claim it. All the protastent sects claims the same Holy Spirit presence with them. How possibly, all you have same spirit and that Spirit leading all of you to different directions?

also i did not say mohammed plaguerized just scripture… if he were really a prophet i could understand why he said some of the same things prior prophets said… but i provided examples of him plaguerizing mani, arab paganism, heretical christianity and gnosticism. no prophet of God has ever done such a thing, and nobody (certainly not ‘long ago’) has provided a reasonable answer for my examples of mohamed plaguerizing against these foreign religions.

i hope that helps

gracias
que Dios te bendiga

The concept of God incarnating in man is there mentioned 5000 year old scriputres in Hinduism. If I say Christianity copied this concept to promote Jesus (pbuh) as God, (That is probably could happened, since Jesus (pbuh) never said he is God) would you agree on that?

 

[Khalfan]

Hundreds of eye witneses of Jesus and sucesors of the aposotles of Jesus died martyrs becasue of the faith they had.

They died claiming that Jesus was God and they would have been released from death only if they abandon that believes, however they died martyrs becuase they truly believed what they were claiming.

The question is not what they claimed and what they died for. Many Muslims got killed in crusades. Many Jews killed by Hitler. Many British got killed in freedom fight in India. We can find martyrs in every religion, even atheists. That doesn’t prove true or false but the courage and honesty they had in the concept they believed.

 

[BelFarfalla]

The question is not what they claimed and what they died for. Many Muslims got killed in crusades. Many Jews killed by Hitler. Many British got killed in freedom fight in India. We can find martyrs in every religion, even atheists. That doesn’t prove true or false but the courage and honesty they had in the concept they believed.

Now lets not leave out the millions of martyrs of Chritians, Jews and pagans in the Middle East, North Africa, Europe and the Indian Subcontinent died defending themselves against Muslim invaders prior to the Crusades. Those Muslims who died in the Crusades were not martyrs, they died because those who Muslims had attacked for so long just sick and tired of Islam’s constant invasions for hundreds of years.

 

[jimmy85]

The question is not what they claimed and what they died for. Many Muslims got killed in crusades. Many Jews killed by Hitler. Many British got killed in freedom fight in India. We can find martyrs in every religion, even atheists. That doesn’t prove true or false but the courage and honesty they had in the concept they believed.

I think you must take in account that they saw Jesus unlike any muslims and any person that died in teh crusades or any other type of martyrs. they were more aware of what they believed.

and the gospels were not letters they were used to evangelizate and to inform about the religion. Therefore thats the reason some gospels dont have the name or the introduction of the authors, that stuffs only happens on the letters.

 

[Khalfan]

Khalfan - i just got done doing a little independent investigation on khadija, mohammads first wife.

one interesting thing to note, is that khadija was in a religion that was a break off of Catholicism. it was popular in pagan arabia, and here’s some things they believed.

• Jesus was not God, but merely a prophet.
• Jesus was not the son of God
• They thought that Catholics worshipped te Blessed Mother, which is prolly why the quran is in grave error when it says Trinity is Father, son, and Mary.
• they believed that the kabaa in mecca was built by adam, then the flood destroyed it, and Abraham built it.

i do not remember the name of the sect, but it was a sect from syria, and it started with an a.

muslims say that khadija was a hanif… which she was. she was a monotheist. but she was also in this sect.

and it’s interesting to note that almost all that the quran says on Christianity agrees with what this sect believed. that Jesus was not God, that He was only a prophet, etc.

No problem. I can clear all those problems.

We believe, the concept of One GOD and messengers existed since Adam (pbuh). We believe, shades of those concepts existed even before Mohamed (pbuh) and at the time of him and Khadija. So there no problem with what you said. It doesn’t disprove Islam. Until Mohamed (pbuh) declare Islam as the true religion, Christianity (teachings of Jesus (pbuh) if there was any true teachings existed. We believe there was people who believed in the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) like the uncle of Khadija (ra), who recognised the consular, the spirit of truth that Jesus (pbuh) promised in Mohamed (pbuh)) was the true religion.

one of the objections that i have to islam, is how mohammad thought that he was above the quran law. for example, he was able to have 11 or 12 wives, whereas the quran says 4 maximum. might i ask what gave him the special privaliges to go above that? this is prolly one of the biggest problems Christians have with islam. and not a single Prophet of the Bible was able to do that.

peole are to live by example of the Prophet. and if the Prophet says “ohh, you can have only 4 wives” yet he has 11 or 12… do you honestly think that they are a prophet? it is heretical for anyone to think that someone who does that is a prohpet!

Prophet (pbuh) married all of them before the command about number of wives that anyone. Before that there wasn’t any rule that restricts anyone to marry as much as they wanted. Stoping that habit at once would be suicidal. So Quran commanded to marry upto 4 and to prefer only one.

“Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.” [Al-Quran 4:3]

The Quran is the only religious scripture in the world that says,“marry only one”. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:

“Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women…” [Quran 4:129]

Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception.

Since you read the history of Khadeeja, Let me ask you some questions.

In what age Mohamed (pbuh) married Khadeeja (ra)? How old was she at the time marriage? How many other wives Prophet (pbuh) had at the time khadeeja (ra)? How many years they lived together? Was it a happy family?

another problem i have with islam is the issue of abrogation.

God is perfect. God does not need to change His mind. so why does “allah” change his mind so many times in the quran? pray towards Jerusalem. OoH! wAiT! now pray towards mecca!

Prayers was supposed to be done towards Jerusalem. But the prophet liked to pray towards Kaaba in Mecca. God was accepting that will of prophet (pbuh) by permitting to pray towards kaaba.

do not ever fight during ramadan! OoH! wAiT! now you can!

Fight is prohibited. It doesn’t mean, if someone beats you, don’t fight back. Self-defense is allowed.

no compulsion in religion! OoH! wAiT! if they accept a religion other then islam, it will not be accepted in the hereafter!

You can choose whichever religion you like. But God will accept only Islam. Where is the problem?

Countinued.

 

[Khalfan]

Continued.

abrogation, in my opinion, is just a really heretical belief, and one that should not be accepted. how do we know that “allah” hasn’t changed his mind about mohammad being the seal of prophets! or everyone having a jinn!

you see… God does not change His mind. and if He did, how would He be perfect?

you see, these are my problems with islam. and this is why i am positive that islam is nto a true religion of God.

If everything is predefined, how can God answer our prayers, unless God change his mind?

I think you are talking form such a perception that past, present and future is predefined by God. In such a world, we will lose one of the most important aspects of life that persuade us to live today and face tomorrow; HOPE. If there is no meaning in hope, there is something seriously wrong with the logic.

We should think different then. Islam proposes a future not predefined. Our future is in our hand. But whatever we get good and bad is from God.

also, some of the erros mohammad made with quran… there are a few dozen!
thequran.com/Errors.aspx?t=2

May be you can quote some.

 

[Khalfan]

mm I think you must consider the way in whcih the first christians martyrs died , that was giving their lifes without fighting for it, Imitating Jesus.

Suicide?

 

[BelFarfalla]

Suicide?

IF someone held a sword to your neck and said…
Denounce Muhammad. Admit that he was not a prophet but instead the agent of Satan. Denounce Allah. Denounce the Qur’an. Here spit on the Qur’an and rub it in dirt. Denounce Islam. And then once you denounced all of this you have to become a worshiper of Baal.
Would you denounce all of this and become a worshiper of Baal? Or would you hold fast to your faith and let them behead you?
Would you take the easy way out and live?
If they killed you was it suicide?

 

[Khalfan]

Quran was revealed in 23 years of time.

LOL did what a prophet was supposed to do??

 

[Khalfan]

Now lets not leave out the millions of martyrs of Chritians, Jews and pagans in the Middle East, North Africa, Europe and the Indian Subcontinent died defending themselves against Muslim invaders prior to the Crusades. Those Muslims who died in the Crusades were not martyrs, they died because those who Muslims had attacked for so long just sick and tired of Islam’s constant invasions for hundreds of years.

And what about the Christian invades started even before that and still continuing?

 

[Khalfan]

I think you must take in account that they saw Jesus unlike any muslims and any person that died in teh crusades or any other type of martyrs. they were more aware of what they believed.

and the gospels were not letters they were used to evangelizate and to inform about the religion. Therefore thats the reason some gospels dont have the name or the introduction of the authors, that stuffs only happens on the letters.

You mean, thats why you don’t know who wrote it?

 

[Khalfan]

IF someone held a sword to your neck and said…
Denounce Muhammad. Admit that he was not a prophet but instead the agent of Satan. Denounce Allah. Denounce the Qur’an. Here spit on the Qur’an and rub it in dirt. Denounce Islam. And then once you denounced all of this you have to become a worshiper of Baal.
Would you denounce all of this and become a worshiper of Baal? Or would you hold fast to your faith and let them behead you?
Would you take the easy way out and live?
If they killed you was it suicide?

I will fight.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I will fight.

Seems to be the nature of your faith.

 

[jimmy85]

You mean, thats why you don’t know who wrote it?

We know it. It is another thing if you refuse to understand.
you should take a bible theology course in order to know the exact history and to do an exegesis about how, where, when, and by whom the gospels were written. and you shouldnt just relly on secular or skeptic info about it.

And what about the Christian invades started even before that and still continuing?

Do you know anything about history? The muslism were in france until the christians were able to stop them.
most of the midle east was christian, grece, spain sicily egipt, syria, turkey, lebanon and many more were christian countrys,
and then the muslism were as far as france.
Do you expect europe to allow themselves to be conquered by them and to be submited to muslism laws? lol

 

[french]

khalfan - ok i do not have the time right now to respond to everything you said, but i will say this…

1. about prayers changing from Jerusalem to mecca… you said because mohammad wanted it. so why is God giving in to mohammad? why is God conforming to satisfy the prophet? God makes the rules, not the prophet.
2. you say mohammad had wives BEFORE the 4 wives “revelation” came around… that is just stupid. why didn’t “allah” or “angel gabirel” not tell him not to have any more then 4 before he married the 5th!

ok so let’s say that i was a stripper… and it was my normal job. then let’s say i took shahada for some reason. so whould i still be able to strip, since i did not recieve islam in my life until AFTER i started stripping? lol you see… so STUPID to believe that.

1. you ask me about khadija - might i ask why? all i told you is that mohammad got his ideas from her belief in Jesus and such.
2. muslims believe that during puberty is when someone is held accountable for whatever. so since aisha was 6, does that mean that it was a forced marriage? possibly rape.
3. mohammads message was NOT clear. because when someone converts to islam and tries to pick to be sunni or shia, they ask… “hmm, do i take shia, which mohammads daughter fatima believed, or do i take sunni which is what aisha believed?” you see… two very respected people in islam disagreeing. if islam was so clear, then there would not be such a huge division. i do not know a single sunni that considers a shiah a muslim. yet fatima was shia! and shia and sunni are wayyyyyyy opposite.

like i know that Chrsitianity isn’t so unified either, ut it was for 1500 years, and the only reason there are protestants is because of cults. martin luther… we know he was a cult because he started hating the Jews once they did not accept his beliefs. anglican church… HAH. they split because the king wanted power. etc. etc.

 

[exoflare]

Seems to be the nature of your faith.

 

[BelFarfalla]

And what about the Christian invades started even before that and still continuing?

Which Christian invasions? Christians were not invading Muslim lands before the Crusades. They were defending themselves from Muslm invaders.

The Crusades slowed down the Muslim invasions into Europe for a while… but then as soon as that was over Muslim armies started their march on Europe again… they did not stop until Europe finally got smart and attacked the Ottoman empire on it own land.

Do you know what was the first war that the USA fought off our our own soil? In north africa against Muslims who were attacking our ships and taking crew and passangers as slaves.

 

[Booklover]

No problem. I can clear all those problems.

We believe, the concept of One GOD and messengers existed since Adam (pbuh). We believe, shades of those concepts existed even before Mohamed (pbuh) and at the time of him and Khadija. So there no problem with what you said. It doesn’t disprove Islam. **Until Mohamed (pbuh) declare Islam as the true religion, **Christianity (teachings of Jesus (pbuh) if there was any true teachings existed. We believe there was people who believed in the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) like the uncle of Khadija (ra), who recognised the consular, the spirit of truth that Jesus (pbuh) promised in Mohamed (pbuh)) was the true religion.

Blind acceptance with no proof! You only believe it because Muhammad said so!

Jesus did not say anything about Muhammad’s coming! He meant the Holy Spirit! You keep stating that our scripures are corrupted and yet constantly keep using them to prove the validity of your false prophet!

Prophet (pbuh) married all of them before the command about number of wives that anyone. Before that there wasn’t any rule that restricts anyone to marry as much as they wanted. Stoping that habit at once would be suicidal. So Quran commanded to marry upto 4 and to prefer only one.

“Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.” [Al-Quran 4:3]

The Quran is the only religious scripture in the world that says,“marry only one”. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:

“Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women…” [Quran 4:129]

Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception.

Since you read the history of Khadeeja, Let me ask you some questions.

In what age Mohamed (pbuh) married Khadeeja (ra)? How old was she at the time marriage? How many other wives Prophet (pbuh) had at the time khadeeja (ra)? How many years they lived together? Was it a happy family?

Muslims will always justify anything Muhammad did! Answer me this, if Muhammad had said that incest was “halal”, would Muslims have sex with their children???

Prayers was supposed to be done towards Jerusalem. But the prophet liked to pray towards Kaaba in Mecca. God was accepting that will of prophet (pbuh) by permitting to pray towards kaaba.

Nonsense! He changed his mind about that when the jews wisely did not accept his so-called prophethood!

Fight is prohibited. It doesn’t mean, if someone beats you, don’t fight back. Self-defense is allowed.

We also have the right to protect ourselves from anyone who wants to destroy us and what we believe!

You can choose whichever religion you like. But God will accept only Islam. Where is the problem?

Yes, we believe in freedom of religion. As for your arrogant statement that God only accepts Islam, you only have Muhammad’s word for that, and you’ve accepted it again without proof!

We also believe that no one has the right to force us to accept any religion against our will!

If there is one thing I’ve learned from most Muslim posters here, is that arrogance is an integral part of your belief in Islam!

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

Seems to be the nature of your faith.

Yes. You may just watch when someone loot your home or trying rape any of your relative. I can’t. Self defence is not a crime in any country. Even Jesus (pbuh) taught to do that.