K
Khalfan
Guest
I like that joke. But wrong timing.To use your favorite word, this is “stupid” reasoning!
Vickie
- Status
K
Khalfan
Guest
Nothing, but just a sign for those men of understanding.
Aha…
The world knows who George Bernard Shaw was.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
A simple question. How do you know the intermediary was Gabriel? It does not say so in the Koran.
K
Khalfan
Guest
It does say in the Quran. God confirmed about Gabriel (AS).
A simple question. How do you know the intermediary was Gabriel? It does not say so in the Koran.
“Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.” Sura 16:102
“Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-” Sura 26:192-193
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2: Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah’s Apostle “O Allah’s Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ’ off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says.” 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.
The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96, 96, 96) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija replied, “Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones.”
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira’ sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, ‘Wrap me (in blankets).’ And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):
‘O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!’ Arise and warn (the people against Allah’s Punishment),… up to ‘and desert the idols.’ (74-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Keeping in mind the Qur’an was recited by Mohammad only…lets look at your answer.
Gabriel is the Holy Spirit? Why doesn’t it say the angel Gabriel?
Gabriel is now the spirit of Faith and Truth? Why doesn’t it say the angel Gabriel?
Wow, now you jump to hadith which is a 3rd person account, Gabriel has been replaced by a bell, sweating, a dream, and FINALLY, her cousin concludes the spirit is Gabriel. How did he know it was Gabriel?
Waraqa never converted, and the spirit that never identified itself stopped visiting Mohammad for about 3 years, causing great distress to Mohammad.
This 3rd person account also does not mention Gabriel.
You have not proven to any rational person, the spirit in the cave, who rang a bell in his head, that made Muhammed have a sweat or convulsions in which divine revelations were given was Gabriel.
Today such people would be considered unstable for good reason.
Since you cannot support the claim the one instructing Mohammad was Gabriel (except for willfull stubborness), that word- The Koran, which was given to Mohammad to recite to others, is suspect as authorative from God. It is clear from the Koran, allah did not speak directly to Mohammad, but through another…as told by Mohammad.
If it wasn’t Gabriel, as you were unable to prove, and it isn’t allah itslef, who/what produced what the Jinn call a wonderful Quran and believe it? (Sura 72)
K
Khalfan
Guest
Gabriel is the Holy Spirit? Why doesn’t it say the angel Gabriel?
Gabriel is now the spirit of Faith and Truth? Why doesn’t it say the angel Gabriel?
Gabriel (as) introduced himself.
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 459:
Narrated Samura:
The Prophet said, "Last night I saw (in a dream) two men coming to me. One of them said, “The person who kindles the fire is Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire, and I am Gabriel, and this is Michael.”
Waraqa ddin’t know the name but he said,
“This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses…”
Waraqa never converted, and the spirit that never identified itself stopped visiting Mohammad for about 3 years, causing great distress to Mohammad.
Waraqa said,
“…I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Volume 2, Book 21, Number 225:
Narrated Jundab bin 'Abdullah :
Gabriel did not come to the Prophet (for some time) and so one of the Quraish women said, “His Satan has deserted him.” So came the Divine Revelation: “By the forenoon And by the night When it is still! Your Lord (O Muhammad) has neither Forsaken you Nor hated you.” (93.1-3)
Continued.
K
Khalfan
Guest
Those were the early stages of revelation. Prophet didn’t know Gabriel (as). Then a lot of hadeeses recorded as prophet (pbuh) calling him Jibreel (as) and the angel himself introduces to prophet (pbuh).
Some of them are below.
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 459:
Narrated Samura:
The Prophet said, "Last night I saw (in a dream) two men coming to me. One of them said, “The person who kindles the fire is Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire, and I am Gabriel, and this is Michael.”
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, “What is faith?” Allah’s Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, “What is Islam?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan.” Then he further asked, “What is Ihsan (perfection)?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you.” Then he further asked, “When will the Hour be established?” Allah’s Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
- When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
- When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: “Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour–.” (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, “That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion.” Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.
Narrated Abu Salama:
'Aisha said that the Prophet said to her “O ‘Aisha’ This is Gabriel and he sends his (greetings) salutations to you.” 'Aisha said, “Salutations (Greetings) to him, and Allah’s Mercy and Blessings be on him,” and addressing the Prophet she said, “You see what I don’t see.”
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 442:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Gabriel read the Qur’an to me in one way (i.e. dialect) and I continued asking him to read it in different ways till he read it in seven different ways.”
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 444:
Narrated Ibn Shihab:
Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz delayed the 'Asr prayer a little. 'Urwa said to him, "Gabriel descended and led the prayer in front of the Prophet " On that 'Umar said, “O Urwa! Be sure of what you say.” "Urwa, “I heard Bashir bin Abi Masud narrating from Ibn Masud who heard Allah’s Apostle saying, 'Gabriel descended and led me in prayer; and then prayed with him again, and then prayed with him again, and then prayed with him again, and then prayed with him again, counting with his fingers five prayers.”
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 454:
Narrated 'Aisha:
That she asked the Prophet , 'Have you encountered a day harder than the day of the battle) of Uhud?" The Prophet replied, "Your tribes have troubled me a lot, and the worse trouble was the trouble on the day of 'Aqaba when I presented myself to Ibn 'Abd-Yalail bin 'Abd-Kulal and he did not respond to my demand. So I departed, overwhelmed with excessive sorrow, and proceeded on, and could not relax till I found myself at Qarnath-Tha-alib where I lifted my head towards the sky to see a cloud shading me unexpectedly. I looked up and saw Gabriel in it. He called me saying, ‘Allah has heard your people’s saying to you, and what they have replied back to you, Allah has sent the Angel of the Mountains to you so that you may order him to do whatever you wish to these people.’ The Angel of the Mountains called and greeted me, and then said, “O Muhammad! Order what you wish. If you like, I will let Al-Akh-Shabain (i.e. two mountains) fall on them.” The Prophet said, “No but I hope that Allah will let them beget children who will worship Allah Alone, and will worship None besides Him.”
Word of God, Prophet (pbuh) and Companians are given to prove that the revelations were from God, and it was given to prophet (pbuh) through angel Gabriel (as).
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Sorry bud, I am afraid it does not wash. The spirit of the Quran revealing things to Mohammad does not ever identify itself. The hadith are untrustworthy, as are the revelations within the Koran.
I invite you to study the true Word, as contained in the 4 Gospels.
K
Khalfan
Guest
E
exoflare
Guest
LOL this red herring again
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
It is a fact that you refuse to admit. It is not subject to interpretation. No where does that spirit identifiy itself and yet you believe it from tradition only.
I will be happy to discuss and debate Scripture, it’s authors, and it’s authenticity- but that is not the topic. Don’t be a typical Mohammedan apologist and deflect the subject when you can’t answer the first question about your faith.
When you admit the spirit that influenced Muhammad is an unknown entity that never identified itself as Gabriel- meaning Mulslims cannot be sure who/what gave these revelations to Mohamet, then we can move to another topic.
Where is your integrity?
K
Khalfan
Guest
Gabriel (as) introduced himself.
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 459:
Narrated Samura:
The Prophet said, "Last night I saw (in a dream) two men coming to me. One of them said, “The person who kindles the fire is Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire, and I am Gabriel, and this is Michael.”
Can we discuss gospels now? in this thread or another? Or you still want to pull the subject further?
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Let’s go further.
What is the context of that hadith? It isn’t speaking about the time of the first revelation in the cave.
Who is Samura? How many hadith are accepted by that person?
Why isn’t such a claim in the Koran?
K
Khalfan
Guest
I have already said, the prophet didn’t know Gabriel (as) at the time of first revelation. He didn’t know if it is an angel or what. The Hadees is already quoted. Waraqa said, it is the same (he too didn’t know the name Gabriel (as)) that came to Moses (as).
A companian narrator mentioned in Sahih Bukhari. Since this Hadees is there in Bukhari, the source is conform and accepted in Islam.
“Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.” Sura 16:102
“Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-” Sura 26:192-193
The Spirit revealed its name.
I am sorry. I couldn’t get it in English but here is link to the Hadees in Arabic which gives the chain of narrators, the Hadees and the explanation.
hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=5059
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
See, I find that interesting and as a proof to the questionable validity to the Qur’an. All of the early encounters Mohammad had with that the spirit starting with in the cave at Hira soon stopped for about 3 years before he started receiving them again. That does not feel as if it is from God.
And Because Mohammad did not know, became very distressed and frightened to the point of considering suicide before having it suggested to him later that it was from God through an angel. Moses, or Abraham, or Mary; when visitied by an Angel of the Lord were not driven to such a state of abject fear.
Another proof is it was not Gabriel that came to Moses, or at least it is not recorded as such. In either case most, maybe all encounters with God or His angels in both the OT & NT have the phrase “Do not be afraid” within the message.
I do not think the spirit in the cave was from God; #1 because it didn’t say so & #2 Muhammads reaction was a genuine fear that would not come from God, in my view. Many Muslims have that frightening view of God too it seems.
I cannot get past that first event, and from that springs everything else.
That is not much to base an entire faith on. To believe Mohammad I would think you would need to believe who/what was talking to him, and there is very little evidence to suggest what spoke to him and threw him to he ground a few times was from God.
No, I don’t think so. The Holy Spirit and “Faith and Truth” are not names. Here is an example:
The angel answered, "I am Gabriel
You did great. Thanks for the dialog.
I don’t think the spirit in the cave was legitimate to speak for God. I think Mohammad was sincere, but fooled, and then became a bad man. I wish you could see that.
Ok, you had a question about the Gospels…fire away. I’ll do my best to answer, as you answered my question.
K
Khalfan
Guest
How would it be, if it is from God?
How do you know that?
Everything is not mentioned in NT or OT. The life Jesus (pbuh) itself is not written completely in NT.
- It wasn’t commanded to say so. It did what it was commanded to do by God.
- The fear wasn’t from God. No Muslim have the a frightening view of God.
I think you should learn what is Sahih Hadees.
That is from God. God said what is it, not the names.
Ofcourse he was legitimate. That is what God confirmed in Quran.
What I can see is the word of God came to Mohamed (pbuh) though an angel.
My question is very simple. Who wrote ‘Gospels according to John’?
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
The story of Paul is a good example as to what I think it would be if it was truly from God.
The many books about Mohammad I have read all indicate that after the encounter in the cave, he left to climb the mountain to throw himself off, but he saw the apparition again above him, so he turned back and went to Kadijja. Do you disagree with that?
True, but the important and consistant things seem to be.
I contend it was not from God. If it was God, the fear expressed by Mohammad would not be recorded like it is. Allah as master is very different from the Father God.
I have read many of them. They do not sound like it is from God to me.
Is it Allahs cause to do as those who fly planes into buildings or put bombs in cars in London and elswhere?
Only if you accept the spirit was Gabriel or from God, and that is not proven. That is my point.
Don’t you see that as circular logic? That confirmation is provided by one man only, Mohammad, and only Mohammad spoke what is in the Quran. He gives testamony to himslef, and that is invalid.
I am not satisfied. The Qur’an does not say, and no one but Mohammad interacted with that spirit. That is not proof.
I love this Gospel’s inspiration. I accept that it was the Apostle John (whom Jesus loved) who wrote/narrated the basis of the Gospel near the end of the first century. I acknowledge it went through complex development before it reached its final form.
Who wrote the final version to what we have today is unclear, but he left a statement that has no reason to be rejected.
John 21:24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
Christ had many witnesses to His miracles and words, as did the Apostles. The people themselves would know if what was being said was true/accurate or not.
Islam has only the word of Mohammad that a spirit thought to be Gabriel spoke what is in the Quran.
K
Khalfan
Guest
How do we know it was from God? Infact it was Jesus (pbuh) as per Paul. Did Paul know how Jesus (pbuh) look like?
Can you quote that part, where the suicide attempt was happened? It seems new to me. It is not mentioned in the Hadees either.
What is not important for you is important to me. Angels use to come to prophets. If all the events are not mentioned in OT, that is not my problem.
You don’t believe what is mentioned. How can I expect you will believe which is not mentioned?
Father? Thirsty of blood of animals and his own son? Allah is far different from what you portry of father.
Ha… Ha… and who told you, hadeeses (Sahih or Non-Sahih) are from God?
Not at all. Kiliing innocent people is committing Murder and those should get executed. It applies to U.S army too for killing civilians in Iraq and Afghan.
Flying plane into buildings are still under research. Search ‘9/11 coincidence’ in youtube. You may find something interesting.
A sahih Hadees is more than enough for me to believe in it. That is my choice. Rejecting is your choice. you too won’t reject if you know, the process done to confirm a hadees as ‘Sahih’.
It isn’t. The testimony was the Message. The message of one God (not trinity) which Moses and Jesus (pbut) brought. The companians and wives of Prophet (pbuh) were eyewitnesses of revelation many times. It is recorede in Hadeeses.
Quran did say. But you don’t want to agree.
Mohamed (pbuh) was chosen for the mission like Jesus (pbuh) was chosen for the mission to the people of Israel. Do everyone have to be born miraculously as Jesus (pbuh), to believe in God? No. It is our choice to believe in Jesus (pbuh) and in his message. It our choice to believe in Mohamed (pbuh) and in his message.
Continued.
K
Khalfan
Guest
You accept?!! Have you forgot all those conditions you asked to authorise Quran and Hadees?
Complex development? What is that?
If it is written by John, why would he write ‘according to John’?
And the words of that ‘unclear’ man entered in book of John and you believe it is ‘Gospels according to John’?
Believe me, you are the first christian who told me, there is a third party interference in Gospels of John.
A claim of an ‘unclear man’ (it is not one man since it says ‘we know’) is enough to believe in it. Fantastic logic.
Jesus (pbuh) had no authority on what he did. He said,
“I can of mine own self do nothing…”. –John 5:30
Another problem is, you don’t know the one who reported these events was a disciple or not. You don’t know the one who reported these events was spiritually inspired or not.
Jesus (pbuh) isn’t God. He spoke the words of God.
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”. –John 12:49
“…My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me”. –John 7:16
“…the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me”.
–John 14:24
He was ‘taught’ what to speak.
“…then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things” -John 8:28
How he was taught is not written. It was through angel. As you know everithing is not written, coming of angels either not written or removed from the book.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Physical appearance had nothing to do with the vision.
This is very clear
…But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: ‘He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)’ (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night). (Book #87, Hadith #111) Sahih Bukhari
I do not trust the source of the Quran which is Mohammad and the un-named spirit.
Yes, they are very different. This is another topic in itself. and would take a longer answer.
Not from God, of God. They carry the weight of civil and religious law.
I am glad you agree that the people in the WTC were innocent. Do you think the people in the Pentagon were innocent as well? The Quran qualifies the innocent as other Muslims in that context, not non-Muslims. The US does not target civilians in Iraq for killing, but the killers who hide behind the innocent.
Under research by lunatics only. Islam accepts words from a spirit no one ever saw, but thinks 9/11- captured on film- is a conspiracy with missles and explosives set by the government.
Reason should not be suspended to make such a choice.
They take Mohammeds word for it only. It is a completly different message. Jesus had His miracles as His witness. The Quran is not such a miracle.
It does not say. Mohammad was not chosen. Only one was born like Jesus, and that was Jesus. Islam does not listen to Jesus’ Words.
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