Parishes refusing to allow parents to teach Confirmation

[BornCatholic7]

Why would you force a child to paritiipate in BOTH the Confirmation instruction in the parish if they are already being instructed at home??? Be realistic. That is UNFAIR, and would burn a candidate out on learnirng the faith, as now the child is doing double the work, and spending double the time on Confirmation classes or any other sacrament instruction for that matter.
That kind of a schedual does not fit into everyone;s lifestyle either. There are families whose scheduals are already full, or families with disabilites. That should NEVER be manadated or even suggested. Would you have wanted to take double instruction time in Confirmation or the Sacrament of Marriage? I know I wouldn’t have! When a family attends Mass, they are already an “influence” and all the children get to spend time with each other children before and after Mass, or at church functions, prayer groups, church committee meetings, to “influence” other children at church as some of you think should be done.
Remember, your opinions mean nothing in the eyes of the Catechism and Canon law.
This is what needs to be followed, not opinions. The Diocese has guidelines, but that is not mandatory, they are suggestions to guide. I would certainly hope, that a bishop, would honor and be obiedient to the Canon law and honor the parents decision. The Canon law and pope encyclicals state that a parents right to teach cannot be “usurped”. Meaning, laypeople, priests, and bishops need to be obiedent to our decision to teach. Where we ALL, including DRS’s, priests and bishops need to be obiendent to is to the Canon Law.
Pope Benedict also wrote that it is grave mortal sin to prevent the reception of Confirmation. (will post quote later) Which is what DRE’s, priests and bishops are in when they deny reception of a sacrament to one is ready.
The Sacrament of Marriage is as high an honor as the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
Even St. Thomas compared the Sacraments: " Some only propagate and guard the spiritual life by a spiritual ministry, this is the role of the Sacrament of Orders, others do this for both corporal and spiritual life, and this is brought about by the Sacrament of Marriage, by which a man and a woman join in order to beget offspring and bring them up to worship God."

 

[CDNowak]

And yes, this is where abortion, contraception (the fact that it is wrong and that NFP is right and absitinence outside marriage is correct), discussion of vocational sacraments, etc comes up especially for older candidates and why it might be hard for these candidates to discuss their views on the “why” in front of their parents.

These issues are not necessarily part of the preparation for Confirmation. Given that norm in the Western Church is about 7 years old, it is a little disturbing to consider this a requirement (in the Eastern Rites it is just absurd).

Do you think that maybe parental involvement and a lack of questioning might be one of the reasons that some of the cradle Catholics today are so poorly cathechized as to have to ask what proper formation means. One should at least know about the faith in which they are imparting their loyalty do.

Homeschooling all-but disappeared for a while, following the creation of compulsory education laws and the industrial revolution. As of the early 1980’s (the youngest parents now with children preparing for the sacraments) there were only 50,000 homeschooled children in the US. In addition, until that time there was a presumption in canon law that all Catholic children would go to the parochial school. Furthermore the crisis in catechesis dates back at least a generation prior, probably further. So parental involvement is an unlikely factor in the general ignorance of the Faith (I’m sure someone can find studies showing that parental involvement aids education).

As to asking what proper formation means, that is an issue coming out of knowing **more **about the faith and its practice. For example, knowing that the age of reason is the minimum age for Confirmation in the West. Knowing also that this practice is about seven years later than in the East. Knowing that parents are given the right and duty to form their children quite explicitly, and that canon law is interpreted so as to leave the rights given to the faithful as free as possible (See: Home Schooling in Canon Law).

PS Please watch your quote tags, it looks like your attributing FAB’s post to me.

 

[joandarc2008]

These issues are not necessarily part of the preparation for Confirmation. Given that norm in the Western Church is about 7 years old, it is a little disturbing to consider this a requirement (in the Eastern Rites it is just absurd).

Homeschooling all-but disappeared for a while, following the creation of compulsory education laws and the industrial revolution. As of the early 1980’s (the youngest parents now with children preparing for the sacraments) there were only 50,000 homeschooled children in the US. In addition, until that time there was a presumption in canon law that all Catholic children would go to the parochial school. Furthermore the crisis in catechesis dates back at least a generation prior, probably further. So parental involvement is an unlikely factor in the general ignorance of the Faith (I’m sure someone can find studies showing that parental involvement aids education).

As to asking what proper formation means, that is an issue coming out of knowing **more **about the faith and its practice. For example, knowing that the age of reason is the minimum age for Confirmation in the West. Knowing also that this practice is about seven years later than in the East. Knowing that parents are given the right and duty to form their children quite explicitly, and that canon law is interpreted so as to leave the rights given to the faithful as free as possible (See: Home Schooling in Canon Law).

PS Please watch your quote tags, it looks like your attributing FAB’s post to me.

Actually I think your post SHOWS all that we have been speaking of for in your post you have confused the Sacraments of Eucharist and Confirmation. The age to receive Eucharist is the Age of Reason. The Age to receive Confirmation is the Age of Discretion. They are very different. If you do not believe me here is the stance on it:

IV. WHO CAN RECEIVE THIS SACRAMENT?

1306 Every baptized person not yet confirmed can and should receive the sacrament of Confirmation.123 Since Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist form a unity, it follows that "the faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the appropriate time,"124 for without Confirmation and Eucharist, Baptism is certainly valid and efficacious, but Christian initiation remains incomplete.

1307 For centuries, Latin custom has indicated “the age of discretion” as the reference point for receiving Confirmation. But in danger of death children should be confirmed even if they have not yet attained the age of discretion.125

1308 Although Confirmation is sometimes called the “sacrament of Christian maturity,” we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth, nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need “ratification” to become effective. St. Thomas reminds us of this:

Age of body does not determine age of soul. Even in childhood man can attain spiritual maturity: as the book of Wisdom says: "For old age is not honored for length of time, or measured by number of years. "Many children, through the strength of the Holy Spirit they have received, have bravely fought for Christ even to the shedding of their blood.126
1309 Preparation for Confirmation should aim at leading the Christian toward a more intimate union with Christ and a more lively familiarity with the Holy Spirit - his actions, his gifts, and his biddings - in order to be more capable of assuming the apostolic responsibilities of Christian life. To this end catechesis for Confirmation should strive to awaken a sense of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ, the universal Church as well as the parish community. The latter bears special responsibility for the preparation of confirmands.127

1310 To receive Confirmation one must be in a state of grace. One should receive the sacrament of Penance in order to be cleansed for the gift of the Holy Spirit. More intense prayer should prepare one to receive the strength and graces of the Holy Spirit with docility and readiness to act.128

1311 Candidates for Confirmation, as for Baptism, fittingly seek the spiritual help of a sponsor. To emphasize the unity of the two sacraments, it is appropriate that this be one of the baptismal godparents.129

Furthermore - it does not say that this sacrament should be taken with the parents - it says it is appropriate if one of the baptismal godparents is used. My baptismal Godparents were unavailable as I was 29 when confirmed and went through RCIA so I had my fiance who is now my husband sponsor me since he is now the spiritual head of our household - and yes, that is the vocation of marriage.

 

[H_Opey]

The age of reason is also the age of discretion or about.
In the US, the Bishops decided it would be between about 7 but no older than 16 with each Bishop deciding for his diocese. I am under the impression that they (the Bishops) received approval for that once again, but I could be wrong.

BUT his policy (what age he decides) never should trump the law. E.G. if a child is prepared but lacking one thing, such as not old enough, they should not be denied the sacrament because of their age. Or go a step further, they should not be denied because they didn’t make a “mandatory” coed sleep over either. The law is there for a reason and we should cooperate as much as we can with our priests and Bishop. Most do not know this and some act like they don’t care which is very sad.

The parents have a right and obligation to teach their children the faith and to see to it that they receive the sacraments a appointed times.

We are traveling to another diocese so our children can be confirmed.
Not something I would recommend but some times you have to.

 

[H_Opey]

Let me clarify, the Bishops decided for Confirmation, the age would be between 7-16 in the US with each Bishop deciding the age for his diocese.

If you view Confirmation as a strengthening with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then this should be something we would want sooner (7) than later (16+).
Or at least I do.

 

[CDNowak]

Actually I think your post SHOWS all that we have been speaking of for in your post you have confused the Sacraments of Eucharist and Confirmation. The age to receive Eucharist is the Age of Reason. The Age to receive Confirmation is the Age of Discretion. They are very different. If you do not believe me here is the stance on it:

I’m sorry, that quote shows no difference between the age of reason and that of discretion. In fact, the USCCB localized norm on the age for confirmation links the age of discretion to the seventh year. This also happens to be the age of reason. I’m sorry that the logical extension was not previously clear.

Furthermore - it does not say that this sacrament should be taken with the parents - it says it is appropriate if one of the baptismal godparents is used. My baptismal Godparents were unavailable as I was 29 when confirmed and went through RCIA so I had my fiance who is now my husband sponsor me since he is now the spiritual head of our household - and yes, that is the vocation of marriage.

You are completely unclear with the first part. If you mean parents as sponsors, then that is off topic. If you were referring to parents as teachers, Canon 226§2 states: “Since they have given life to their children, parents have a most grave obligation and possess the right to educate them. Therefore, it is for Christian parents particularly to take care of the Christian education of their children according to the doctrine handed on by the Church.”

 

[joandarc2008]

I’m sorry, that quote shows no difference between the age of reason and that of discretion. In fact, the USCCB localized norm on the age for confirmation links the age of discretion to the seventh year. This also happens to be the age of reason. I’m sorry that the logical extension was not previously clear.

You are completely unclear with the first part. If you mean parents as sponsors, then that is off topic. If you were referring to parents as teachers, Canon 226§2 states: “Since they have given life to their children, parents have a most grave obligation and possess the right to educate them. Therefore, it is for Christian parents particularly to take care of the Christian education of their children according to the doctrine handed on by the Church.”

I was referring to the OPs statement that said the parents should be taking the children up in front of the bishop when I added the statement about the Godparents from the CCC. Yes, you may decide the age of discretion for child is 7 just like the age of reason and have your child confirmed I will agree that you could do so with an incredibly intelligent and insightful mature child. I am sure yours is - no sarcasm intended. I do not insult people’s children. I am just going on how you speak of children.

However, this is not true of most children. I the NE where I am originally from age of discretion is 16. Down here in the SE it is sevent and eigth grade area. 13/14. This is a perception issue. Truly - how can you have someone make a decision to be confirmed if they are not able to discern if this is what they want?

Or are you one of those parents that believes it is OK to mandate sacraments?

 

[CDNowak]

However, this is not true of most children. I the NE where I am originally from age of discretion is 16. Down here in the SE it is sevent and eigth grade area. 13/14. This is a perception issue. Truly - how can you have someone make a decision to be confirmed if they are not able to discern if this is what they want?

The age of discretion in canon law is the age of reason and is approximately 7 years of age.

The USCCB document I cited:
USCCB:

The decree follows approval last November by the nation’s Latin Rite bishops of legislation for the United States setting the age for conferring the Sacrament of Confirmation at between the age of discretion (considered to be about age seven) and “about sixteen years of age.” The Holy See’s Congregation for Bishops gave its recognition of the U.S. Bishops’ action on May 9.

The decision to be confirmed is an anomaly, the Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) confirm at Baptism and delaying Confirmation a rather recent invention.

 

[Bluegoat]

The age of discretion in canon law is the age of reason and is approximately 7 years of age.

Not to be difficult, but does this actually matter if the person in question doesn’t have it?

 

[CDNowak]

Not to be difficult, but does this actually matter if the person in question doesn’t have it?

Considering that the mentally ill or developmentally delayed can be given the sacrament, I do not think it is a major issue if the child has not reached the age of reason (but presumably would in the next year or so).

 

[joandarc2008]

Why would you force a child to paritiipate in BOTH the Confirmation instruction in the parish if they are already being instructed at home??? Be realistic. That is UNFAIR, and would burn a candidate out on learnirng the faith, as now the child is doing double the work, and spending double the time on Confirmation classes or any other sacrament instruction for that matter.

If your child was properly catechized *** you state spending extra time being an example to other children of how to become a good follower of Christ should not cause “burn out” but should be a joyful encounter. Or are you admitting that you are unable to teach Christ’s love as well as the Parish priests?

 

[CDNowak]

If your child was properly catechized *** you state spending extra time being an example to other children of how to become a good follower of Christ should not cause “burn out” but should be a joyful encounter. Or are you admitting that you are unable to teach Christ’s love as well as the Parish priests?

There is a huge difference between “was” and “is being” properly catechized.

 

[Brendan]

Not to be difficult, but does this actually matter if the person in question doesn’t have it?

If they do not have it, then they are not to be admitted to First Communion, let alone Confirmation.

But the same level of reason (that common to a 7 year old) is what is required for both Sacraments.

 

[JButky]

I am a catichist, I have been since my children first started in my parishe’s formation program.(my oldest is now 27). I formed my children at home but also in the formation program in my parish. I never have assumed that I knew it all and still don’t. I also never assumed thast I could properly form my children outside of the church.

Peace,
FAB

It is an improper conclusion to state that these children are receiving their formation “outside the church”. It is better to say perhaps that they are receiving their formation outside the church “building”. Using approved materials (displaying imprimaturs ) means that your are accessing the teaching authority of the Church for formation and are well “within the Church.”

Parents, by virtue of their sacramental marriage automatically become catechists to their children and the grace of their marriage sacrament is manifested through their vocation to raise their children in the Catholic faith. This is part of the vow taken in the sacrament of Marriage. Marriage inherently calls the parents to BE catechists for each other and they are most properly disposed sacramentally to perform this task for their own children. The very Heart of the Christian community resides within the family which the Church rightfully calls “the domestic Church.”

To therefore claim that parents are forming children outside the church is demeaning to the very sacramental nature of marriage. To make such claims is also a slight against the Church by making an accusation on the inherent worth of family.

The parish is the place where the community gathers. Since we are a community of believers, the parish is the place where we receive the fount of all our blessings, conduct our public worship, and have opportunities to strengthen each other in our Catholic faith. Formation takes many forms and cannot solely be imparted through these formal classes. Children who receive their formation in the domestic church are simply not outside the parish community. Those that think so obviously have little understanding of what a parish is and its purpose. One must remember that even if a local parish church “fails” and disappears, the “domestic church” must never fail and will never fail.

It does not matter where your formation takes place. The only concern is that it is proper.

When there are sick members of the body, it is up to healthy members of the body to strengthen and bear the hardship. Right now both of these members are struggling. Culture is working to destroy sacramental marriage and Parishes often lack resources to deal with this as well. Both must turn towards the supernatural graces they are given and embrace them. If a Parish has strong Christian families, it is mind boggling to me that the Priests, Bishops, and diocesan policies would push them away and cause this consternation. And where Parishes have weak families, catechesis should concentrate on building strong Christian families through strong preaching and example and stop worrying about this prideful power struggle we’ve been discussing.

Joe B

 

[joandarc2008]

If they do not have it, then they are not to be admitted to First Communion, let alone Confirmation.

But the same level of reason (that common to a 7 year old) is what is required for both Sacraments.

This is a sub-forum of the forum “Traditional Catholicism.” I believe the Eastern Catholicism is handled in different forum. I believe it is difficult to discuss a sacramental age when you have two different definitions of when that sacrament is given.

 

[FAB]

When there are sick members of the body, it is up to healthy members of the body to strengthen and bear the hardship. Right now both of these members are struggling. Culture is working to destroy sacramental marriage and Parishes often lack resources to deal with this as well. Both must turn towards the supernatural graces they are given and embrace them. If a Parish has strong Christian families, it is mind boggling to me that the Priests, Bishops, and diocesan policies would push them away and cause this consternation. And where Parishes have weak families, catechesis should concentrate on building strong Christian families through strong preaching and example and stop worrying about this prideful power struggle we’ve been discussing./QUOTE

In my mind the opposite is true. The prideful struggle are the parents who believe they know more than the Church. If these are such strong Christian families, the parents and the children would be heavily involed in all aspects of the parish life including participation and teaching in the faith formation and sacrament preperation progams. They are guilty of lighting the lamp and putting it under a bushel basket. Condemnations against parish personel, and insisting on home schooling is a form of condemnation is not being a good Christian.
Questioning the bishop falls in the same category.

Peace,
FAB

 

[H_Opey]

On properly prepared and properly formed.

We can properly prepare our children at home for the sacraments. Anyone can. They can be properly prepared.

Formation of everyone should not exclude the parish however involved you can be or not. That is why we gather as a community for mass.

Are some homeschooling parents prideful? Maybe. No going there and I don’t really think anyone should.

Are some priests and CCD teachers prideful? Maybe. But I don’t think we should go there.

For whatever reason should parents so choose to prepare their children at home for the sacraments, the choice is still theirs and they have a right to do this. They should also work (if possible) with the priest and DRE if possible. This is not always the case.

 

[Brendan]

This is a sub-forum of the forum “Traditional Catholicism.” I believe the Eastern Catholicism is handled in different forum. I believe it is difficult to discuss a sacramental age when you have two different definitions of when that sacrament is given.

I did not mention the East at all. What I stated about the age of Reason was reserved to the Latin Rite.

The age allowed for Confirmation in the US is between 7 and 16 years of age, at (mostly) the discretion of the bishop.

In the Diocese of Gaylord, MI, for example, during thier First Communion Mass, 2nd Graders are Confirmed right after the homily, and then recieve their First Communion at Communion time during the same Mass.

 

[H_Opey]

As Brendan stated, some diocese are going back to the traditional way of receiving the sacraments: Baptism, Penance, Confirmation and then Holy Eucharist.

I will add an example.
Suppose a child wants and desires confirmation and suppose the only thing standing in their way is age, not old enough (meaning not 16 or whatever). Now, suppose after pleading the priest (which they can not attend the classes unless they are certain age and can not be confirmed without classes, not exception) and after trying to appeal to the Bishop (no exception, no reason to disregard his policy) the parents are faced with a difficult decision.

The child desires confirmation and is properly formed but the only thing standing in the way is age.

Would you not exhaust all measures to make sure your child receives this?
Why should they be denied these graces for x amount of time because of their age?

I don’t see it so much as prideful parents, as I do a misunderstanding mostly (from personal experience) of the growth of the child and a desire for holiness.

Note, that I didn’t say we do not volunteer, because how much we can do in the parish is beside the point. How many committees I am on does not necessarily reflect my holiness which is our goal.

I just wish, for those that are faced with this, it would be easier for us. No discussions have been brought up at the USCCB that I know of to make this easier.
And the Bishop (and priest) are there to hear us and to administer the sacraments to us and our children.

 

[joandarc2008]

On properly prepared and properly formed.

We can properly prepare our children at home for the sacraments. Anyone can. They can be properly prepared.

Formation of everyone should not exclude the parish however involved you can be or not. That is why we gather as a community for mass.

Are some homeschooling parents prideful? Maybe. No going there and I don’t really think anyone should.

Are some priests and CCD teachers prideful? Maybe. But I don’t think we should go there.

For whatever reason should parents so choose to prepare their children at home for the sacraments, the choice is still theirs and they have a right to do this. They should also work (if possible) with the priest and DRE if possible. This is not always the case.

This is what I have been trying to say - regardless there should be some community aspect to it - part of the Nicene creed talks very strongly about We believe in the communion of Saints. How can one that is only doing the sacraments at home and one on one with priest experience the communion of saints. I truly believe this is not just participation in mass it is the learning and growing process with your peers. Why not have the children do some of the events with the confirmation class or ask the Parish pastor if he could come up with some kind of homeschooling program to bring the homeschooled candidates together once or twice a year for a meeting or a class or get together or community service. Just suggestions. Maybe meeting in the middle is best.