Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Claudius]

On the one hand, I certainly understand the need for the Diocese to ask for the money. Finacially supporting the Church is a normal and expected part of being a Catholic. On the other hand, perhaps the Diocese could have showns greater tact but that does not remove the need for the finances. Maybe if they are hard pressed to get the money they can ask Mel for some. A normal parish usually has a much higher budget then this figure in the United States so in one way the we could look at this as a way that the Diocese has found to offer Latin language Mass at a discount. I do not understand the refusal of a Latin priest from the Priestly Fraternaty but some Bishops are just like that. If they can’t seem to raise the money, then perhaps a priest would be willing to say Latin Mass privately and just let the people in the back door.

 

[Spiller]

So then until everything is set up those that will transfer to the new chaplaincy should pay twice. Once for the current and once for the possible new one?

They won’t be paying twice. The cost is $72K/year. That sum does not change.

They can pay $18K up front (while still attending their current parishes and contributing there as well) and another $54K for the year, or they can wait and pay the entire $72K once they leave their existing parishes. The only difference is timing – the amount remains the same.

I’d concerned that those making the most noise about this have not taken the time to sit down and have someone explain the finances to them.

 

[Spiller]

On the one hand, I certainly understand the need for the Diocese to ask for the money. Finacially supporting the Church is a normal and expected part of being a Catholic. On the other hand, perhaps the Diocese could have **shown greater tact **but that does not remove the need for the finances. Maybe if they are hard pressed to get the money they can ask Mel for some. A normal parish usually has a much higher budget then this figure in the United States so in one way the we could look at this as a way that the Diocese has found to offer Latin language Mass at a discount. I do not understand the refusal of a Latin priest from the Priestly Fraternaty but some Bishops are just like that. If they can’t seem to raise the money, then perhaps a priest would be willing to say Latin Mass privately and just let the people in the back door.

I don’t think so. I think this is a very tactful way to let everyone know what this chaplaincy will cost (excellent planning BTW) and it allows the diocese to gauge up front what sort of support it will receive.

 

[Spiller]

It has been so many years in so many dioceses since the TLM was said, that very few would even remember it, let alone have any dedication to it. It seems odd to me that this diocese is putting up a barrier to younger people by expecting major financial support right up front. Seems to me the idea is to dissuade any who are not already TLM supporters, from becoming so.

Not only that, it is treating those who want the TLM as if they are some kind of separate Church that is not really part of the parish or the diocese. They wouldn’t do this if, say, there were a lot of Maronites in the diocese who wanted to use diocesan facilities for their liturgies and there was a priest who could do it. No, they would jump through their noses to make them feel welcome and to make them feel a part of the diocese.

And they wonder why the SSPX flourishes in places.

I would be very curious to know how they came up with the $72,000 figure. The diocese might well come to regret this move. If the TLM folks come up with the money, they’re likely to insist that it be used only to support the TLM effort and demand an accounting. If, indeed, TLM people are more generous than most, the diocese is going to wish it hadn’t done this.

That’s already part of the deal.

 

[Spiller]

Let’s be honest here. ANY perceived impediment to implementation of a TLM anywhere is going to be seen as confrontational or obstructive on the part of the Church by the TLM crowd, from what I read here.

I don’t think it’s an impediment, but yes, I get your point

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Can someone from that diocese explain why they are creating a ‘chaplaincy’ rather than just having an extra mass at one parish in the diocese? Was this requested by parishioners? Is there already a Latin Mass somewhere and people asked for more?

 

[Spiller]

Can someone from that diocese explain why they are creating a ‘chaplaincy’ rather than just having an extra mass at one parish in the diocese? Was this requested by parishioners? Is there already a Latin Mass somewhere and people asked for more?

I can speculate:

1.) The chaplaincy will serve a far larger geographic area than one parish.

2.) There are no priestly resources available in any of the existing parishes.

3.) Wants to ensure ALL the donations go to supporting the EF. (Given the comments here, that sounds like a great idea.)

 

[pnewton]

And they wonder …flourishes in places.

Ego, pride, rebellion, maybe?

 

[pnewton]

I can speculate:

1.) The chaplaincy will serve a far larger geographic area than one parish.

2.) There are no priestly resources available in any of the existing parishes.

3.) Wants to ensure ALL the donations go to supporting the EF. (Given the comments here, that sounds like a great idea.)

Talk about pessimism! If I was a traditionalist in this area I would see this as a great opportunity. Beyond the fact that any new chaplaincy is loaded with possiblity, to have a single priest dedicated just to the TLM community opens up a lot of possibilities. How about expanding, if interest allows to willing parishes and having a Mass said maybe once a year to give exposure to this form. I know some priest would not even consider it, but not all, especially if it gave them a day off.

 

[manualman]

Nobody knows the motives of the bishop, but in this case I don’t think there is even any necessity to speculate. What you have here is a nice straight fastball right in the sweet spot over home plate. It doesn’t matter if the bishop’s intention is to get it past you or to set you up for a grand slam. JUST SWING!!

Instead of proving the liturgical experimenters right by being whiny, negative, non-constructive, complaining Traditionalists, why not see what an opportunity you have here? If I read it right, you have the opportunity to show this diocese and the world what a community of TLM faithful will look like, including a separate accounting of your giving patterns.

Organize, get the word out. Reach out to places where you are likely to find interest. Do you believe the TLM has an inherently more reverent liturgy that calls the faithful to a proper disposition towards God or don’t you? $74k is NOT an extortionate sum, if it truly includes the full time ministry of a priest. He alone, along with his associated diocesan benefits and his portion of the diocesan financial burden are probably $50k of that. So if you are getting a guaranteed space and time allotment at a parish for $25,000 you are living SWEET! Most protestant communities getting started in movie theaters would gladly swap budgets with you!

Get over the whining and muster the faith to whack that ball out of the park! Make the adversity work FOR you.

 

[MrS]

Well, I have heard of pay to play… for those who want certain sports for their kids.

and now pay to pray…

You realize that those who will write a check will be tempted to borrow from Peter(NO) to pay Paul(TLM).

.

 

[agr4028]

Well, I have heard of pay to play… for those who want certain sports for their kids.

and now pay to pray…

You realize that those who will write a check will be tempted to borrow from Peter(NO) to pay Paul(TLM).

.

But if the “demand” is there, as they claim, it will all work out in the end

 

[manualman]

You realize that those who will write a check will be tempted to borrow from Peter(NO) to pay Paul(TLM).
.

That’s not a temptation, its a given. The TLM community BECOMES their parish. Why WOULDN’T their giving go there?

 

[jc-servant]

I don’t find it unreasonable to ask for people to commit financially to a new ministry or chaplaincy that requires additional resources above what is already being funded. They are dedicating one priest to the TLM which I would think would be a cause for rejoicing for those who desire this liturgy. They don’t have a particular group of registered parishioners already making a stewardship commitment for TLM, so how would they pay the bills unless they ask for people who want TLM to redirect their financial support to this cause? Even if I only went to one TLM, I would toss some money in the collection basket for them just as I do when visiting a parish other than my own (where I eGive).

When my parish wants to add a new ministry or organization or building or renovation, we have to make a plan and pony up with the funds, up front. It is a sad fact that everything costs money. We have to ask for additional money from people who want to use our large church for a wedding mass, so why would some parish not ask for help paying the janitor and electric costs if a TLM is done in their parish church as an extra liturgy?

We have an annual financial accounting that every parishioner receives with the breakdown of how our money is spent including electric bills, etc. It is sad to note that approximately 1/3 of registered parishioners support the entire cost for the parish every year. With that being said, we managed to raise just over 16 million to build our permanent church in 2001. The diocese required us to have 50 percent in pledges and cash before ground could be broken, so this story about the TLM is par for the course and not an outrageous sum of money. We spend over $50,000 on electricity alone every year at our parish. I think $72,000 is reasonable for a priest’s salary, reimbursement for use of a parish’s building, plus other supplies to support the chaplaincy.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t think it’s an impediment, but yes, I get your point

Of course its an impediment and it was done to kill the TLM in its tracks. It was apporved by the ultrasecret NCOBCTKTTM(National Council of Bishops Committe to Kill the Tridentine Mass).

 

[drafdog]

You are not establishing a new parish, so the bishop has not asked for an initial down payment on land for a church building. You are not building your own edifice, so the bishop has not asked for a start up fund for new construction. You’re getting off cheap. For the time being. I am assuming that the chaplain plans to celebrate Mass at a number of different venues for the convenience of the congregation. This will entail the payment of rent on a per use basis to a number of parishes. Each congregation is expected to provide salary and fringe benefits through the diocese for the parish staff, so you aren’t being expected to do anything more than anyone else. It appears that the bishop is bending over backwards to provide a ministry for a special interest group in his see.
One day if your group is large enough, the bishop may approve the establishment of a parish dedicated to the traditional style of worship. Then the cost of the ministry will begin to parallel the cost of any other parish. You will have a pastor, parish secretary, music minister, youth minister, education director, etc to pay salaries and fringe benefits. You will have to find and purchase land and build your own church building, rectory and parish offices, meeting rooms, classrooms, etc. You will have heating, electrical, telephone, internet service, equipment budget, grounds maintenance, etc to pay.
No, the bishop is being generous to a fault. Take the money and run.

Matthew

 

[Brenda_V]

Of course its an impediment and it was done to kill the TLM in its tracks. It was apporved by the ultrasecret NCOBCTKTTM(National Council of Bishops Committe to Kill the Tridentine Mass).

 

[Writer]

You are not establishing a new parish, so the bishop has not asked for an initial down payment on land for a church building. You are not building your own edifice, so the bishop has not asked for a start up fund for new construction. You’re getting off cheap. For the time being. I am assuming that the chaplain plans to celebrate Mass at a number of different venues for the convenience of the congregation. This will entail the payment of rent on a per use basis to a number of parishes. Each congregation is expected to provide salary and fringe benefits through the diocese for the parish staff, so you aren’t being expected to do anything more than anyone else. It appears that the bishop is bending over backwards to provide a ministry for a special interest group in his see.
One day if your group is large enough, the bishop may approve the establishment of a parish dedicated to the traditional style of worship. Then the cost of the ministry will begin to parallel the cost of any other parish. You will have a pastor, parish secretary, music minister, youth minister, education director, etc to pay salaries and fringe benefits. You will have to find and purchase land and build your own church building, rectory and parish offices, meeting rooms, classrooms, etc. You will have heating, electrical, telephone, internet service, equipment budget, grounds maintenance, etc to pay.
No, the bishop is being generous to a fault. Take the money and run.

Matthew

I agree… From the perspective of an auditor (my day job), I am a little mystified at the objections to a real budget. If you question the accuracy of the budget, I’d suggest that you request to review it for yourselves. I suspect that a budget review will set the concerns to rest.

 

[KathleenElsie]

They won’t be paying twice. The cost is $72K/year. That sum does not change.

They can pay $18K up front (while still attending their current parishes and contributing there as well) and another $54K for the year, or they can wait and pay the entire $72K once they leave their existing parishes. The only difference is timing – the amount remains the same.

I’d concerned that those making the most noise about this have not taken the time to sit down and have someone explain the finances to them.

I was saying that if I give X to my home parish and still need to give another X to get the new ministry started I am then giving X times 2 or double what I would normally give.

 

[Spiller]

Talk about pessimism! If I was a traditionalist in this area I would see this as a great opportunity. Beyond the fact that any new chaplaincy is loaded with possiblity, to have a single priest dedicated just to the TLM community opens up a lot of possibilities. How about expanding, if interest allows to willing parishes and having a Mass said maybe once a year to give exposure to this form. I know some priest would not even consider it, but not all, especially if it gave them a day off.

BIG TIME!

When out new bishop was appointed he really acted quickly to implement the MP at a local, very central parish. The attendees would have LOVED to have a chaplaincy because it would support their desires for a “traditional parish” because all their donations would go towards supporting the EF.