Part 2: Vocations to love & relationship for faithful LGBT Christians

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Annie said:
So maybe the vocation of LGBT people is to forget they are LGBT and just be themselves? The fact that the wider society is obsessed with sex doesn’t mean that we have to be.
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You bring up good points in your post.

I would just say that, even on this thread, I’m not just using “gay,” etc, to talk about sex. After all, this thread assumes celibacy. I think the problem is just as bad when we think a gay person is merely concerned with sex, when actually, they are human like everyone else – they want intimacy, closeness, companionship, and love. Not just sex. And their sexuality feeds into these other desires – not just the physical, sexual desires.
 
Many people are keeping secrets of one sort or another. It’s very difficult to socialize if you have any secrets. I know this firsthand.
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Could you explain this some more? I’m not sure what you mean.
 
You have a point in that there are straight people who are ineligible for traditional vocations as well, but the problem is more urgent for gay people because they are told from the very beginning that they are ineligible for traditional vocations and they are often alienated from the Church because they feel like there is no place for them. The solutions might be the same for both groups of people though.
 
Well, for instance, say you have had an abortion in the past. Somebody might ask you how you feel about motherhood or whether you would like to have kids. This could raise a wound.

Likewise, if like Dark Light says, a person has been in a homosexual relationship but they have converted to Catholicism. It’s difficult to engage with people.

And for you, it’s difficult because you don’t always want to say, “Heh, I have SSA but have chosen not to act on that. Papist here, ;)”

Essentially all your efforts at friendship will have a wrench thrown in them. It might help to have all the friendships you have enlisted, but how do you get to that point? Socializing is like stepping on landmines.
 
I see what you are saying and I sympathize with that a lot, because I read an article which really opened my mind and heart to this issue.

Peter Kreeft talks about putting second things first and toppling everything. If one’s top priority is filling need X and X is not the sort of thing which should be the number 1 thing, then neither the most important thing nor X will be properly accomplished.

Yes, people need love and acceptance and human contact. I meet people like this frequently as there are a lot of homeless people here. And I used to meet them on Meals-on-Wheels–you don’t have to be homeless to be lonely.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God… Focus on what you can do for others and then your needs will be met.
 
Annie said:
Seek ye first the Kingdom of God… Focus on what you can do for others and then your needs will be met.
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Personally, I’ve definitely put myself in a position where I focused on what I could do for others right up until I put myself in a position where my needs were so bad that I didn’t have the strength to do anything for anyone else.

Putting your own oxygen mask on before someone else’s isn’t selfish, just practical.
 
Trying to please someone else’s unreasonable desires is a totally different thing–btdt.

What I’m saying–and more to C1S than to you-- is to take care of oneself by growing in holiness and doing things that one wants to do instead of focusing on the desire one has for something. C1S seems focused on being LGBT in a way that you don’t seem to be.
 
I think @annie said it. The gay person’s vocation is unique. To be themselves, to be someone being holy. To be a witness to those within their personal sphere, a rule of life . A gay afflicted person’s path to heaven. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I also believe that part of that rule of life is to make the affliction private again.
 
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Do you know what they ARE saying? Do you know the genesis of the word used in this way?
  • I’ve broken my own Pledge to not remain on this thread. But in response to you, let me extend my grief over this whole mainstream-ization, this “normal”-ization, of a culture that is in contradiction to the Kingdom that we Catholics are called to. I was in the center of the “sex, drugs and rock 'n roll” 60’s and 70’s, in the San Francisco/Berkeley area, when “Gayness” was exploding along with every other amoral self-indulgence - and, I suppose, AIDS also beginning to ignite. “Gayness” was the ugliest culture that could be imagined - bars and bathhouses where men went from partner to partner - total strangers - in a desperate attempt to find what all men are created to find - happiness - and they called themselves GAY? - It was a dark, self-inflicted de-humanization of themselves, and they seized upon the mask of a name, “GAY”! Those days, from which America has yet to recover - maybe we never will, until Christ comes again, which may be soon, Lord willing - lit a fire that was first kindled in hell.
Man was made for woman, and woman for man. God will not be redefined, neither will mankind made in HIs image and likeness be redefined, according to man’s desires, no matter what they are. He is God, we are not.
 
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fide said:
I was in the center of the “sex, drugs and rock 'n roll” 60’s and 70’s, in the San Francisco/Berkeley area, when “Gayness” was exploding along with every other amoral self-indulgence - and, I suppose, AIDS also beginning to ignite. “Gayness” was the ugliest culture that could be imagined - bars and bathhouses where men went from partner to partner - total strangers - in a desperate attempt to find what all men are created to find - happiness - and they called themselves GAY? - It was a dark, self-inflicted de-humanization of themselves, and they seized upon the mask of a name, “GAY”! Those days, from which America has yet to recover - maybe we never will, until Christ comes again, which may be soon, Lord willing - lit a fire that was first kindled in hell.
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A gay subculture was not a new thing that exploded in the 1960s. It probably became more visible after Stonewall in 1969, but it has existed in the US since at least the end of the 19th century. You might want to read George Chauncey’s book, Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940 (Basic Books, 1995).

And all the things you describe have existed long before the 1960s. Between 1492 and 1494, forty-four men were prosecuted in Florence, Italy for the “vice of Sodomy,” some of which took place in the city’s bathhouses (see Michael Rocke, Forbidden Friendships: Homosexuality and Male Culture in Renaissance Florence [Oxford University Press, 1998]). And the police raided a Parisian bathhouse in 1876. The first raid on a gay bathhouse in the US was on the Ariston Hotel Baths in New York City in 1903 where 26 men were arrested, 12 of whom were brought to trial. Bars that catered to homosexuals have existed since at least the 17th century. One of the oldest gay bars in the US is the Black Cat Bar in San Francisco’s North Beach, founded in 1906 and operated continuously again after Prohibition was ended in 1933.
 
Not all vocations have to be grouped in terms of sexual orientation. We all have so much more in common as human beings. Don’t box yourself into something.
 
Annie said:
What I’m saying–and more to C1S than to you-- is to take care of oneself by growing in holiness and doing things that one wants to do instead of focusing on the desire one has for something. C1S seems focused on being LGBT in a way that you don’t seem to be.
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In the broadest sense, this is true. “Seek the Kingdom of God,” of course.

But many people “Seek the Kingdom of God” and don’t think it is found in the Catholic Church, because they don’t see the intelligibility of its sexual moral teachings, for example. And so LGBT people often find Christian homes outside of the Catholic Church that make more sense to them.

For example, my cousin in pastor of a Disciples of Christ church. She and her congregation are very welcoming and affirming to LGBT people. Disagree with their moral teachings, if you like. But it’s no secret that Christian gay people often find more “sense” in these kinds of progressive communities.

This is why it is paramount that the Catholic Church welcomes gay people in a way that fosters their human needs — not just a commandment to “not have sex.”

Besides that, it’s perfectly fine to seek help. This has been an issue for me for 10 YEARS — the same time I both started loving my faith AND also became more conscious of being gay/having SSA. To some participants in this thread, my very asking this kind of question is “selfish.” They’ve told me (on the other thread) I need to worry less about “myself” and more about “Christ.”

Wow, what if we responded to every question and pastoral need that way. 😲
 
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@Annie and others.

This was from about 5 years ago, so I’ve gained some new perspective. For example, I have since encountered the work of Eve Tushnet (Catholic lesbian woman who is celibate, adheres to Catholic teaching, and is also working to promote ways of vocation to love/relationship for LGBT Christians).

So while this blog post is not exacrtly representative of how I think now, I think it expresses well how I as a young college student perceived the difficulty and place in the Catholic Church as a gay person.

You will notice it is an intellectual struggle as much as spiritual and emotional.

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The Missing Flag

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Addressing the original question, these are just some thoughts that come to mind…
I am married and do not have SSA, but I was single for longer than average, and longer than I wanted to be–I married in my mid-30s. So I do understand the periodic loneliness and frustration of being single when all your friends and family are getting engaged, getting married, and having babies. I can only imagine how much that loneliness and frustration is intensified when you have no realistic hope of being able to marry in the future; and my heart goes out to those of you struggling with that isolation.

ShowersofRoses had some good ideas, and I don’t have additional ideas beyond those at this point, but it occurs to me (not for the first time) that building real Christian community and fellowship is the key. We live in a world that is increasingly individualistic and isolated, and it is so easy to overlook people who may be struggling with any number of crosses and don’t know where to turn. So maybe the discussion could focus on practical ways to find Christian friends and how to keep and strengthen those friendships.
 
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I did not mean to suggest that homosexual sin - and the desire to be embraced by all of society - began in the 60’s. I am concerned about the Orwellian “newspeak” [Definition of “newspeak”: propagandistic language marked by euphemism, circumlocution, and the inversion of customary meanings. Merriam-Webster on-line, Newspeak | Definition of Newspeak by Merriam-Webster] embraced and progressively accepted in American culture, set on steroids in the insane 60’s and 70’s. Homosexual sex is NOT GAY - there is nothing gay about it.

Orwell’s “newspeak” - Definition of newspeak for English Language Learners (same site as above): speech or writing that uses words in a way that changes their meaning especially to persuade people to think a certain way.

A list of newspeak words - see Newspeak - Wikipedia.

But “gay” to describe a self-destructive, sterile, self-directed lifestyle ought to be one of them. Our whole culture continues to move toward “God? - who? - what are you talking about? - Get real!” Meaning, “Join us in our make-believe fantasy - or at least tell us we’re OK, please.”
 
This remark doesn’t respect the thread parameters laid out by op. Sort of rude.
 
Norseman82 said:
You are constantly getting upset about being told that gays have the same obligation as other unmarried Catholics, but that is the honest truth. Singles also do not have a non-sinful outlet for their “human needs” , and divorced people cannot get remarried to someone else (except in cases where their marriage is null), and people who find a divorced person are told that those people are off-limits (unless the marriage is a null one). So, tell us what makes you different from other singles and then we may get somewhere.
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I think you are missing part of the story here. Yes, Catholic gay people are told to conduct themselves no differently than single (heterosexual people). The difference is that heterosexual people have a choice of actively searching for a spouse and looking forward to one day having that relationship. Gay Catholic people don’t (I am not entertaining the notion of gay people marrying straight people, or other gay people of the opposite sex, and “making it work”. That is a terrible thing to do, IMO). So it seems to lack empathy, for someone to make that remark to a gay person who is struggling with being a good Catholic. It may help them ward off the present day temptation to engage in a homosexual encounter, but what about the long-term concept of a loving and commited relationship? It doesn’t help at all with that. I guess what I am saying is that when the advice is given to just conduct themselves the same as a chaste, single heterosexual person it discounts the bigger problem of looking at their life as a whole, with a future and all of the things that one would want in that future. A family of their own, a loving spouse, a tight marriage, etc. I am not saying one Catholic should tell another Catholic to live outside of Church teachings. Have some understanding, though. This isn’t necessarily about sexual urges in the minute.
 
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I think the root of the problem is that heterosexual people can never know what it is like to be LGBTQ. They can have hearts of gold, with immense empathy and still not know what it feels like day to day, minute to minute. It is unrealistic to expect they can. I am a straight white women. I love people of all backgrounds. I love and seek out diversity. But I will never fully know or understand what it is like to be of a different race. I haven’t lived it.

I would say that a good first step to solving the issue outlined in the OP is to get the shame on the shelf. This issue requires a cohesive group of people who do know what it is like to be LGBTQ getting together and outlining their wishes, their desires, and their needs as they relate to their life in the Church. The shame goes on the shelf by having open and honest discussions, just like the OP on this thread. Vocabulary needs to be sorted out. Positive intent needs to be assumed, which will only happen once trust is establshed. There will be a certain percentage of people in the parish who will find this distasteful.
Account for those numbers from the get-go and accept that not everyone is going to have a positive attitutde. It is OK. Then the group needs to to convey those things to the rest of the congregation, understanding that the heterosexuals in the Church aren’t going to fully get it, because it isn’t their experience. That is OK. Many will be willing to help get things to where they need to be. In other words, the LBGTQ’ ers need to let the rest of the congregation and leadership know what they need. Direction is needed because, since being LGBTQ isn’t their experience, they need some pointers.

I suggest this be done first at the parish level and then let it grow beyond that.

I realize this isn’t an official definition, but I define “vocation” as what one does to elevate their spiritual life and their relationship with God. Certainly, on a parish level, some options could be developed. It would be a good start. It would create understanding and culture within the parish. No, it is not OK to contuously try to play matchmaker after someone has declined. To continue on is just bad manners, regardless of sexual orientation. This is just one example that, I can only image, makes life for a gay person trying to live within Catholic rules very difficult.
 
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