Passion of the Christ

[Ediana]

Hi, greetings to all of you, and thanks in advance for your attention.

Let me get right to it. This has been bothering me for years. I was raised Catholic, switched to being Protestant at around age 18, and now I’m 32 and have left going to church completely for the past 5 years…but thinking of coming back to the Catholic church.

When the above film came out, I was excited for Mel Gibson…but I didn’t go to the film, nor have I a desire to see it. I’ve studied the crucifixion in depth, and used to be grateful, but I am no more.

Perhaps you can help me through my logical conundrum:

I can be grateful (or at least a bit thankful) that God created me and my family/friends. However, I can’t seem to connect the gratitude for the crucifixion, though. I’ve learned that it was God’s plan to have His Son killed, planned ‘before the beginning’…so how am I to be blamed/held responsible → we all sin, and don’t seem to have a choice in the matter, whether we will sin in our lives–we surely will.

1. Did Jesus die because we sin?
2. If we sin because God didn’t give us the capacity to be sinless, then why are we to blame?

I realize I sound like Paul in Romans, but I don’t see how I can be grateful for Jesus “saving” me. I can be grateful for the lifestyle and blueprint for happiness, no doubt. But grateful for the sacrifice that really truly God intended…? Seems the ‘Christ-killers’ were actually doing God’s will, in some sense?

Thank you, hopefully you can help me sort this out,
Eugene

 

[patricius]

Hi Eugene,

First, I’d like to clarify something: God’s plan from “before the beginning” was that no human being should ever die. Humanity messed that up. Pope John Paul II has indicated (although perhaps not infallibly) that the Incarnation would have occurred even if there were no original sin. But that doesn’t mean Jesus would have died.

1. Did Jesus die because we sin?

Yes. He died because humanity turned away from God-- sinned.

1. If we sin because God didn’t give us the capacity to be sinless, then why are we to blame?

God did actually give us the capacity to be sinless! Note how I’m talking about “humanity” in general here, and not about each individual person. You’ll probably find that in Catholic thought there’s a consideration of the whole human race in God’s plan of salvation, as well as each individual. The point is that God created humanity, collectively, with the potential for sinlessness. The Catholic Church teaches that “our first parents” turned away from God and sinned, and that let the genie out of the bottle, so to speak-- it created a fundamental divide between God and humanity that was only healed with Christ’s death.

It’s like this: suppose that when you were 10 years old, your family was in danger of becoming homeless, until someone gave your family a very large gift. Let’s say it was a check for a million dollars. Now suppose that some unscrupulous character convinced your gullible father to blow it all on a widget factory, which promptly went belly-up, taking the whole million with it.

Well, this is where we would all be without Jesus: our ancestors blew our inheritance. Now, the question is: suppose that the person who had given the original million, through some huge sacrifice, was able to give you another million, and that this time he made sure that it would get passed down from generation to generation, and with interest!

Would you be grateful for that person’s gift, and for his sacrifice, even though it technically wasn’t “your fault” that the original gift got lost?

 

[Path]

patricius:

Hi Eugene,

First, I’d like to clarify something: God’s plan from “before the beginning” was that no human being should ever die. Humanity messed that up. Pope John Paul II has indicated (although perhaps not infallibly) that the Incarnation would have occurred even if there were no original sin. But that doesn’t mean Jesus would have died.

Yes. He died because humanity turned away from God-- sinned.

God did actually give us the capacity to be sinless! Note how I’m talking about “humanity” in general here, and not about each individual person. You’ll probably find that in Catholic thought there’s a consideration of the whole human race in God’s plan of salvation, as well as each individual. The point is that God created humanity, collectively, with the potential for sinlessness. The Catholic Church teaches that “our first parents” turned away from God and sinned, and that let the genie out of the bottle, so to speak-- it created a fundamental divide between God and humanity that was only healed with Christ’s death.

It’s like this: suppose that when you were 10 years old, your family was in danger of becoming homeless, until someone gave your family a very large gift. Let’s say it was a check for a million dollars. Now suppose that some unscrupulous character convinced your gullible father to blow it all on a widget factory, which promptly went belly-up, taking the whole million with it.

Well, this is where we would all be without Jesus: our ancestors blew our inheritance. Now, the question is: suppose that the person who had given the original million, through some huge sacrifice, was able to give you another million, and that this time he made sure that it would get passed down from generation to generation, and with interest!

Would you be grateful for that person’s gift, and for his sacrifice, even though it technically wasn’t “your fault” that the original gift got lost?

Well said!!!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Christ became sin and was crucified so that He may experience and defeat the separation from God that it brings.

A recurring theme in the Bible is that sin separates us from God; Jesus came to embody the ultimate separation which was evident when He testified “why did You abandon Me?” He had to suffer that abandonment, but He did not sin so He had to be condemned by the law (the absolutists, as it were) and sentenced to death in order to pull it off.

Another recurring theme is the reuniting of the separated. The prodigal son, the lost sheep, the lost coins for example. Our whole life is a roller coaster, or perhaps yo-yo, or spiritual ups and downs where we fall short of our own expectations in the eyes of God and feel isolated and guilty because we have separated ourselves from the Perfect, and then through Christ’s love and forgiveness we are redeemed. This process builds up our love; as Jesus said, the person who was forgiven the most loves the most. Therefore, without sin there cannot be redemption. Without death there cannot be life. Jesus died so that we may live.

Can you imagine how glorious the resurrection was for Christ? How abandoned He felt, and how great a reunion party He must have had? Dad surely killed the fatted calf when He got home.

Alan

 

[martino]

Question: Do you believe that you could attain eternal life in heaven without Christ’s Passion?

If you believe that His suffering and death was not neccessary then you would have no reason to feel gratitude, maybe pity, but not gratitude. Remember that Peter raised a similar question and Jesus answered him.

Matt 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” 23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

Ediana:

Hi, greetings to all of you, and thanks in advance for your attention.

Let me get right to it. This has been bothering me for years. I was raised Catholic, switched to being Protestant at around age 18, and now I’m 32 and have left going to church completely for the past 5 years…but thinking of coming back to the Catholic church.]

I feel that God is calling you back home. You have some things to reconcile, but I don’t think that they will prevent you from coming home. I think that your biggest problem will be finding the right person(s) to help you to come home. If you have not been a practicing Catholic since age 18, you will need some time to catch up. There are beautiful programs such as " Re-membering." But all areas do not have these programs. Marcus Grodi and his “Coming Home” group at EWTN might have some resources for you. God bless you.
Deacon Tony SFO

 

[FelixBlue]

Eugene,

I’m going to assume that what you are saying is that you are disatisfied with the “religious” or more theological explanations of what Christ did on the cross and why you should be thankful.

Another question that I’ve had, and I believe it is related to your question is: why did/does the crucifixion “work.” How does it save? Etc. If one cannot answer that question (in any fundamental sense) then it is hard to understand how one is to be grateful for the cross.

The problem is that most of the answers to the above question are given a religious or theological form (as are all of the above). For what they are, they don’t give any fundamental, philosophical understanding…we don’t really come to understand the “logic” of the cross (despite Paul calling it foolishness in the eyes of men) when given the background of the sacrificial system of Israel and the substitute lamb, and on and on (as above). These are all very good answers…and are probably the best, but for those of us who tend to be a little more hard-headed, we want to REALLY UNDERSTAND why the cross works and therefore why we should be thankful.

That said, here are a few things to think about from the philosophical angle:

1. Given the reality of Infinitude (God) and finitude (creation), how is it that the (rational) finite could ever come to participate in the Infinite. What would this look like? What would the Infinite “logically” have to do, become in order to allow the finite to participate in it’s life (assuming the Infinite is personal in some sense)?
2. Ask the same questions of the distinctions between becoming and Being. Creation is clearly a “becoming” in that we are and are not, while God (if we accept Thomas’ arguments in the Summa) simply Is. How does that which is becoming come to participate in the life of Being. Etc.
3. I believe another angle to look at is the distinction between time and eternity. Is the sum total of God’s creative act found in the cross and resurrection (the result being the “new-creation”)? If so, could we say, in some way known to us, that the cross is actually the beginning in some odd way…

Scripturally, I believe the passage from Philippians chapter two is key to understanding the incarnation and what followed. The kenosis…the emptying of God to become man. As the fathers say, God became man so that man might become God.

So, philosophically, why this need for emptying? As one of the posters wrote above, Jesus became sin. What does this mean but that he descended into the very depths of nothingness, into the darkness of radical finitude, the chaos of becoming, the painful limitations of time.

But perhaps you should try to approach it more philosophically. I have to agree with you that typical explanations for why the crucifixion works leave me cold. I’m not an Hebrew from 2000 years ago. I don’t “understand” the sacrificial system…at least not sympathetically.

 

[puzzleannie]

I read something today in the Beginning Apologetics book we got through CA that makes a lot of sense re this question. read the verses in John about Easter Sunday night when he appears to the apostles gathered in the upper room. He says “Peace”, breathes on them, and says, “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven, those you hold bound are held bound.” The only other time the breath of God is mentioned in the bible, the source says, is Genesis when God breathes life into the first human being. This ties forgiveness to the Resurrection and new life. The implication being that Christ had to suffer and die in order for the resurrection to happen and with it the defeat of sin and death. He commissioned the apostles to carry on his mission, the source says, which in essence is the forgiveness of sin. Linked with the commission to evangelize and baptize all nations, this also links the resurrection to new life in baptism, and to the forgiveness of original and actual sin via water baptism. Makes sense to me.

 

[tru_dvotion]

annie,
I :tiphat: to this one.

 

[Ediana]

Hi, thanks so much for all your thoughts, and I’m going to quote from Patricius, since this person seems to have gotten most of what I’m trying to ask:

First, I’d like to clarify something: God’s plan from “before the beginning” was that no human being should ever die. Humanity messed that up.

You mean Adam and Eve, yes? Am I to feel guilty for being a sinner (and hence needing Jesus’ passion) because of the original sin attributed to me by Adam?

Yes. He died because humanity turned away from God-- sinned.

Humanity meaning Adam and Eve, yes? Did God change His plan (to send Jesus to die) based on humanity’s actions (sins) ??

God did actually give us the capacity to be sinless! Note how I’m talking about “humanity” in general here, and not about each individual person.

So, realistically, He didn’t give ME the ability at all. If that is true, then He allows the ancestry of Adam to be sinful…did He plan this ahead of time?

You’ll probably find that in Catholic thought there’s a consideration of the whole human race in God’s plan of salvation, as well as each individual. The point is that God created humanity, collectively, with the potential for sinlessness. The Catholic Church teaches that “our first parents” turned away from God and sinned, and that let the genie out of the bottle, so to speak-- it created a fundamental divide between God and humanity that was only healed with Christ’s death.

I can live with that…but my question is, as an individual, did I inherit the inclination to sin from Adam and Eve? Is this “Original Sin” ? Am I in ‘bondage’ (a slave) to sin from birth ? If so, it seems to be God’s plan, given Romans 11:32, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. "

It’s like this: suppose that when you were 10 years old, your family was in danger of becoming homeless, until someone gave your family a very large gift. Let’s say it was a check for a million dollars. Now suppose that some unscrupulous character convinced your gullible father to blow it all on a widget factory, which promptly went belly-up, taking the whole million with it.

I think this is an incomplete analogy, but I also think part of it is useful–thanks.

Well, this is where we would all be without Jesus: our ancestors blew our inheritance. Now, the question is: suppose that the person who had given the original million, through some huge sacrifice, was able to give you another million, and that this time he made sure that it would get passed down from generation to generation, and with interest!

Would you be grateful for that person’s gift, and for his sacrifice, even though it technically wasn’t “your fault” that the original gift got lost?

I would be grateful, yes. But where does my personal sin and guilt play into all this?

Regards,
Eugene

 

[kmktexas]

I think you may be confusing omniscience with pre-destination. God did not WILL for Adam and Eve to sin. He gave them free will and they chose wrongly. Being all-knowing, he was aware that this would happen and sent his Son for our redemption.

 

[Exporter]

Ediana,

God created you with a “FREE WILL”. You have the capcity to chose what you will do. God did not “preordain” that you will sin, but the stain of Original Sin makes us have the propensity to sin.

In the begining, before there was a universe, God knew his creations would sin. They sinned against God. We as creatures cannot ever do a thing to repay God for our sins. So God let his Only Son, Jesus pay the price for our sins. Jesus was a Jew. In the Jewish religion they killed a bull or a bird and blood had to flow for it to be a real sacrifice for sin. Thats why Jesus had to have his blood flow(to pay for all our sins…for all time! ) Since Jesus was God( remember the Trinity?) then He could pay for sins against God. People couldn’t do that. That is why Jesus came and died. But guess what, since he was God…He rose on the third day! That rising on the third day was the big thing. But he couldn’t have risen if he had not first died on a cross!

Why don’t you ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom for three days in a row. Just talk to the Holy Spirit as if He was on the phone and He was a relative…talk plain language…no set prayer. If you doubt Him. tell him that. Just ask the Holy Spirit to give you the truth about your questions. Review what I wrote and check it out with the Holy Spirit.
JMJ

 

[Ediana]

Hello all,

I’m not trying to invoke a discussion about free-will (but maybe I’ll end-up there, who knows). I’ll try to drag this discussion right back onto the thread’s title, “Passion of the Christ”–the movie.

What has bothered me is that I have very little desire to see the movie, or to sympathize with Jesus for having to die on the cross. Hopefully that doesn’t sound too awful–I’m just trying to be honest. The reason is because his death seemed inevitable, almost like it had to happen from day 1 (or was that day 6? ). I’m to be grateful, yes? Am I to be grateful that Judas sold-out Jesus and turned Him in, and grateful for the rest of the occurrences leading up to the crucifixion (since the end-result is my salvation?)…grateful for the Jews demanding His death? I mean, Jesus had to die in order for us to be born-again, so why wouldn’t we be excited.

A lot of the Protestant theology (from what I’ve experienced, anyway) centers around “Jesus died for you”, “you put Jesus on the cross with your sin”, “you killed Jesus” (side note: like that U2 song w/BB King "When Love Comes to Town–“I threw the dice when they pierced his side”–but anyway)…perhaps this is where part of my confusion lies.

Did I really do this to Jesus? Did I really have a ‘snowball’s chance’ in avoiding “putting Jesus on the cross”, though? Based on reality, I don’t think I did, if I am in fact, at the end of the day, “responsible” for His death. Seems no one can completely avoid sin, no matter how hard they try–therefore Jesus death was prescribed from the birth of Cain…yes? But if we’re going that far back in time, then perhaps Original Sin really is the ‘culprit’ (i.e. impregnating us with the desire/propensity to sin), yes? And therefore that negates any feelings of responsibility that these Protestants might try to induce from their flock…

Or is someone going to try to convince me that “yes, we can avoid sin completely for our whole lives–God has given us the ability”…when in all practicality, we cannot, we are in “bondage”…from birth?

Thanks millions for your (name removed by moderator)ut,

Eugene

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Ediana:

Hi, greetings to all of you, and thanks in advance for your attention.

Let me get right to it. This has been bothering me for years. I was raised Catholic, switched to being Protestant at around age 18, and now I’m 32 and have left going to church completely for the past 5 years…but thinking of coming back to the Catholic church.

When the above film came out, I was excited for Mel Gibson…but I didn’t go to the film, nor have I a desire to see it. I’ve studied the crucifixion in depth, and used to be grateful, but I am no more.

Perhaps you can help me through my logical conundrum:

I can be grateful (or at least a bit thankful) that God created me and my family/friends. However, I can’t seem to connect the gratitude for the crucifixion, though. I’ve learned that it was God’s plan to have His Son killed, planned ‘before the beginning’…so how am I to be blamed/held responsible → we all sin, and don’t seem to have a choice in the matter, whether we will sin in our lives–we surely will.

1. Did Jesus die because we sin?
2. If we sin because God didn’t give us the capacity to be sinless, then why are we to blame?

I realize I sound like Paul in Romans, but I don’t see how I can be grateful for Jesus “saving” me. I can be grateful for the lifestyle and blueprint for happiness, no doubt. But grateful for the sacrifice that really truly God intended…? Seems the ‘Christ-killers’ were actually doing God’s will, in some sense?

Thank you, hopefully you can help me sort this out,
Eugene

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

See the film! It seems like you feel like the crucifixion is a planned guilt trip.Should it make you feel guilty? It does me. But, what is it that I saw in the movie, that I think you could get out of it?LOVE! Never, ever,in my life of reading the scriptures did that realization on just how much He loves us. When I sin and feel like a scumbag, I can with more ease fight the dispairing temptations that God won’t forgive me, doesn’t love me anymore ect.We can not fathom his Love.God Bless

 

[jimmy]

Ediana:

Hi, greetings to all of you, and thanks in advance for your attention.

Let me get right to it. This has been bothering me for years. I was raised Catholic, switched to being Protestant at around age 18, and now I’m 32 and have left going to church completely for the past 5 years…but thinking of coming back to the Catholic church.

When the above film came out, I was excited for Mel Gibson…but I didn’t go to the film, nor have I a desire to see it. I’ve studied the crucifixion in depth, and used to be grateful, but I am no more.

Perhaps you can help me through my logical conundrum:

I can be grateful (or at least a bit thankful) that God created me and my family/friends. However, I can’t seem to connect the gratitude for the crucifixion, though. I’ve learned that it was God’s plan to have His Son killed, planned ‘before the beginning’…so how am I to be blamed/held responsible → we all sin, and don’t seem to have a choice in the matter, whether we will sin in our lives–we surely will.

1. Did Jesus die because we sin?
2. If we sin because God didn’t give us the capacity to be sinless, then why are we to blame?

I realize I sound like Paul in Romans, but I don’t see how I can be grateful for Jesus “saving” me. I can be grateful for the lifestyle and blueprint for happiness, no doubt. But grateful for the sacrifice that really truly God intended…? Seems the ‘Christ-killers’ were actually doing God’s will, in some sense?

Thank you, hopefully you can help me sort this out,
Eugene

Hello Eugene,

I think you have things a little confused. It sounds like what you are saying is that God planned the fall of man and the redemption.

God did not plan the fall, but he did plan the redemption. In other words, God created us because he loved us. We were created so that we could do his will and not sin and to love him. But we did not obey and our first parents caused the fall by there disobedience. God is all knowing, so he knew beforehand that we would not use the free will properly and we would fall, so he planned for his son to come to earth and redeam us from our sins.

God does not give us a state where we are forced to sin or where we can not choose not to sin. I think that is a significance of the doctrines of Mary. They show that humans can follow the will of God and can abstain from sin. In that way Mary gives us hope that we, as humans, can reject sin.

It is through Gods grace that Mary did not sin. We are all given this grace, but we do not accept it as Mary did.

With the resurection, Jesus lifted us up so that we can be reconciled with God. All we have to do is reach out and take it. God has given us all that he can, it is our job to take what he has given us and to use it.

The sacrife was only planed in as far as God knew that man would disobey. I think that “intended” is the wrong word to use. It would mean that God had planed the fall so that he could redeem us. The truth is that he planned the redemption because he knew the fall was going to happen.

So the answers to your questions in short are

1. Christ died because we sinned and rejected God, but that does not mean that we can not not sin; Mary did not sin. (the double not is on purpose.)
2. We have the capacity to be sinless but we do not use it. Mary is the one created human of God that followed God and did not sin. She did this of her own free will.

 

[Ediana]

Hi Jimmy, thanks much for your thoughts.

I think you have things a little confused. It sounds like what you are saying is that God planned the fall of man and the redemption.

I seem to say this because of the assumption I’ve made that, along with tons of other people (many are Protestant–my major source of theology over the years), based loosely on
Romans 3:23 “all have sinned”, and 1 John 1 “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”, among others, that there isn’t a human being that is
without sin…which would realistically imply that no one can be sinless.

God did not plan the fall, but he did plan the redemption. In other words, God created us because he loved us. We were created so that we could do his will and not sin and to love him.

But we did not obey and our first parents caused the fall by there disobedience.

Did Adam and Eve then pass-on guilt (the need for infant baptism)…what did they pass-on?

God is all knowing, so he knew beforehand that we would not use the free will properly and we would fall, so he planned for his son to come to earth and redeam us from our sins.

I understand what you’re trying to say, and it makes sense that God would know ahead of time, and hence provide for the failure of 99.999% of the people (if indeed it’s a failure/tragedy to not avoid sin in your whole life–another issue related to above).

God does not give us a state where we are forced to sin or where we can not choose not to sin. I think that is a significance of the doctrines of Mary. They show that humans can follow
the will of God and can abstain from sin. In that way Mary gives us hope that we, as humans, can reject sin. It is through Gods grace that Mary did not sin. We are all given this grace,
but we do not accept it as Mary did.

I don’t know if I’d go that far and say we had the same chance as Mary did to not sin. But is this the theology of the RCC?

With the resurection, Jesus lifted us up so that we can be reconciled with God. All we have to do is reach out and take it. God has given us all that he can, it is our job to take what he has given us and to use it.

It seems all we have to do is try to die in a good moment, the more I read Catholic teaching. Another sticky issue with me.

The sacrife was only planed in as far as God knew that man would disobey. I think that “intended” is the wrong word to use. It would mean that God had planed the fall so that he could redeem us. The truth is that he planned the redemption because he knew the fall was going to happen.

Romans 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. "
How do you explain this passage, by the way? It seems to “say what I’m seeming to say” 8)

So the answers to your questions in short are

1. Christ died because we sinned and rejected God, but that does not mean that we can not not sin; Mary did not sin. (the double not is on purpose.)

I understand. Your premise that we can totally avoid sin is the lynch-pin in this whole issue, it seems, for me. And the only evidence of this is what was defined about a hundred years ago, ex cathedra, yes?

1. We have the capacity to be sinless but we do not use it. Mary is the one created human of God that followed God and did not sin. She did this of her own free will.

I’d have to be convinced that scriptures mentioned above (plus many others) are not contradicted with this view.

Again, thanks much for this–it is quite helpful to me to run this past good people.

Eugene

 

[Ediana]

Lisa, thanks for your post.

See the film! It seems like you feel like the crucifixion is a planned guilt trip.Should it make you feel guilty? It does me.

Is it the belief of Catholics that all people can avoid sin?

Then why infant baptism, if the infant hasn’t sinned yet? Did the fact that Adam sinned ruin our chances? Isn’t that why Jesus came, because the Garden gates have been shut? Then why could this be anyone’s but Adam’s fault?

But, what is it that I saw in the movie, that I think you could get out of it?LOVE!

I see your point…but I’m looking into the necessity of this brutality–why was it necessary?

Thanks,
Eugene

 

[jimmy]

Ediana:

Lisa, thanks for your post.

See the film! It seems like you feel like the crucifixion is a planned guilt trip.Should it make you feel guilty? It does me.

Is it the belief of Catholics that all people can avoid sin?

Then why infant baptism, if the infant hasn’t sinned yet? Did the fact that Adam sinned ruin our chances? Isn’t that why Jesus came, because the Garden gates have been shut? Then why could this be anyone’s but Adam’s fault?

But, what is it that I saw in the movie, that I think you could get out of it?LOVE!

I see your point…but I’m looking into the necessity of this brutality–why was it necessary?

Thanks,
Eugene

Baptism is more than just the remission of sins. It is an incorporation into the church which Christ founded upon Peter. Christ came for many reasons. One reason is that he came to conquer death and to show that sin and death had no power over the “son of man”. Adams sin did not mean that everyone else is guilty of sin. In order to be guilty of sin, you have to actually sin. As I said in my above post, Mary never sinned, so there is hope for us as Christians that we may reject sin. The guilt that Original Sin causes is not guilt that someone declares, it is guilt that a person feels. It is also called concupisence.

If you want to know why Christ died on the cross instead of God just declaring man to be guiltless, and free from all consequences of sin, you can read St. Thomas’ answer to this. He gives several reasons why the cross was the best situation for our redemption.

The first reason he gives is that it shows us how much God actually loves us. If God did not make this sacrifice we would not have the comprehension of how much God loves us. Love comes through sacrifice and it shows us how to love eachother. God gave us the ultimate sacrifice that he could give, himself.

The second reason Thomas gives is because it shows us an example of how to live a life of humility, obedience, and all the other virtues. Christ was very virtuous in his life and he showed us how we should live our lives.

The third reason Thomas gives is because it merited us grace.

The fourth reason is because it gives us a reason to do Gods will and to follow Christ. He quotes Corinthians here and says that we were bought with a great price. Therefore we have good reason to do Gods will.

The last reason he gives is because it appeals to mans dignity. It was a man who was decieved by the devil and caused death to the world, so it should be a man who would conquer the devil and destroy death. He quotes Athanasius here to back up his point.

Another reason that Christ died on the cross, as the church fathers would agree with, is that by dying he conquered death. He made man eternal. By death he conquered death.

Here is a link to the St. Thomas stuff. He gives a very in depth discussion about this.

ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/TP/TP046.html

I hope this helps.

 

[Shiann]

Ediana:

Is it the belief of Catholics that all people can avoid sin?

In short, with the help of God’s graces (the sacraments, et al.) YES

Then why infant baptism, if the infant hasn’t sinned yet?

Because Baptism removes the stain of Original Sin passed down to us from Adam. In removing this stain we open the doors to God to bestow the abovementioned Graces on us- and for us to refuse or accept them as we live.

“God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility; He has made us subject to His law, which is known to us by the dictates of conscience, and our acts must conform with these dictates, otherwise we sin (Rom. 14:23).”
Catholic Encyclopedia- SIN

The infant has not had an opportunity to go against these dictates as he has not the capacity for this reasoning- therefore he remains free from the effects of sin until the ‘age of reason’ (6-8) generally around the time of their First Confession.

Adam transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul [Denz., n. 175 (145)]. As death is the lack of the principle of life, the death of the soul is the lack of sanctifying grace which according to all theologians is the principle of supernatural life. Therefore, if original sin is “the death of the soul”, it is the lack of sanctifying grace.
Catholic Encyclopedia- Original Sin

Then why could this be anyone’s but Adam’s fault?

The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us (loc. cit., can. ii). If he has lost it for us we were to have received it from him at our birth with the other prerogatives of our race. Therefore the absence of sanctifying grace in a child is a real privation, it is the want of something that should have been in him according to the Divine plan. If this favour is not merely something physical but is something in the moral order, if it is holiness, its privation may be called a sin.
Catholic Encyclopedia- Original Sin

It was only Adam’s fault, and he paid the price with his death and his removal from Paradise. But just as the ripples of our actions often go well beyond our own life, the ripples of this first disobedience extended into all of humanity.

…but I’m looking into the necessity of this brutality–why was it necessary?

Because I believe that to truly understand the magnitude of his Love and Sacrifice- (which is what the movie and the Liturgy of the Eucharist is about) you must understand the magnitude of the Suffering.

We get to see that it isn’t just about people beating up Jesus and nailing him to a cross. We are opened to the personal suffering of a Man who knows what he must do and accepts it, who honestly loves those people who are so terrible to him. We see the suffering of friends who love their friend, and mentor, and Lord and are confused at his actions of peace and love to people who are so terrible to him- and their suffering at watching him die. (And most moving to me) we see the terrible suffering of a Mother who watches as her Son endures, remaining steadfast in her support.

If you believe that you will not be able to view the movie and look beyond the blood, then the movie isn’t for you. But I have to say, the movie is so well done, that those scenes only enhanced the emotions I had, and broadened my understanding of God’s Love for me, and his Sacrifice.