Pastor and DRE refusing FHC to homeschooled child

[EasterJoy]

It took some time but I got through all 119 posts.

I am an Asst DRE at a large parish and would like to try and shed a little light on what may be going on in the OP’s parish’s side of the fence. As a matter of practice, we do not allow at home sacrament prep because it is up to us (the parish) to make sure the child is properly instructed and knowledgeable. We have over 100 families who use our home school religious ed option. Our program has a built-in component that allows us to monitor completion of work as well as understanding. Even with all of this high tech accountability, we must foster the sense of community - the origin of the word Communion.

While a small number of posts does not allow me to fully know or understand the OP, the reasons for not wanting to have her child attend classes sounded weak.

Congratulations. You are a good soul to do that from scratch!

Here is the thing: the pastor seems to have approved an alternative route of preparation. If that is true, what’s the excuse for having a child admittedly disposed to receive the sacrament and who has met the requirements of the pastor and yet excluding that child from receiving the sacrament with all the other children in the parish?

It is one thing to say that the requirements have not been met and so the child cannot receive the sacrament. It is quite another to say the requirements have been met, but the child isn’t in the same “class” as those who met the requirements in another way and so will not be permitted to approach the sacrament on the same day or with the same amount of communal fanfare as the others.

Where do you find the “we” that means the religious education program instead of the person of the pastor in this:
**Can. 914 **It is primarily the duty of parents and those who take the place of parents, as well as the duty of pastors, to take care that children who have reached the use of reason are prepared properly and, after they have made sacramental confession, are refreshed with this divine food as soon as possible. It is for the pastor to exercise vigilance so that children who have not attained the use of reason or whom he judges are not sufficiently disposed do not approach holy communion.

This “requirement” to “foster a sense of community” by barring someone who is disposed to receive her First Holy Communion with everyone else requires logic that is quite beyond me. How does excluding someone “foster” anything like community? I do not see how this discrimination fosters either justice or charity, without which there is no Christian community. How does it not teach children to leave people out if they don’t happen to have been in their “program”? How does it not in fact put defending the formal program ahead of fostering true unity, dividing the parish into what used to be divisions between Jews and Greeks?

I think what the practice of preferring those who follow the formal program over those who obtained permission from the pastor to do their preparation with direct parental preparation fosters is compliance, and that is hardly the same thing as unity or community.

 

[mommy_k]

Why should I have trusted them in the first place?

I have stated a couple times that we were new to the parish this year. At our previous parish, I knew the pastor and DRE personally, and they approved of the training we provided in our homeschool as more than sufficient. The DRE actually told me that she would prefer I NOT enroll my children in weekly RE classes, but only do the extra sacramental prep materials in the proper years.

Then we moved cross country to a new parish where I knew no one. I had no reason to trust anything. I still don’t. Errors are still being taught right alongside the truth. I have mentioned only two of them in this thread. My son’s life was threatened by a disturbed child and initially it was going to be ignored, until my husband and I insisted that either the child be accompanied by his mother or by the DRE every week, because in no way would we tolerate a threat like that against our child. They complied when they realized we were not going to let that drop.

My weekly presence WAS due to a lack of trust. My volunteering has been a help to the parish, probably far more than a mere watchful and protective presence would have been. I would never volunteer at any parish at the expense of my family. In fact, if my children are not enrolled in a particular year, I will not be volunteering.

You may disagree with my priorities. But I have 5 kids and I homeschool. THAT is how I serve God. I still very much disagree with the false dichotomy you are making. God did not give me a parish. He gave me a spouse and children. We are free to select our own parish. I also think you are conflating our duty to God with parish volunteerism.

Yes, you addressed this upthread .

I can assure you that these teachings are not false----this addresses the catholic family hierarchy.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7794

The ccc paragraphs 1750-1752 address doing good for the wrong reasons and moral implications- you will see I am not conflating at all…if a person volunteers for benefits, vainglory, etc…it is addressed here. (You addressed this upthread a few times already, so it’s just backpocket info for you)

 

[Usige]

In fairness, many (most) of the posters on CAF are very, very interested in integrating their faith into all aspects of their family life, and do so. At the same time, I think many of us are aware that parish requirements are often not aimed at those who really make an effort in this area. It can be frustrating, and noting that it might not be the best system does not mean we aren’t really living our faith.

I think that is the challenge for many people who take being the primary educator to heart. When policies are written with zero room for accommodation it can lead to problems. I would suspect that the majority of regular CAF posters are as knowledgeable, if not more, about the faith than many that teach RE. It really comes down to what is the reason for the policy (what are it’s goals) and is that the only way those goals can be met? Some diocese are better at laying out the exceptions or alternatives from the begining, but it is frustrating having a DRE that says this is the policy, but that is not willing to see if there are alternatives.

I remember when my oldest son was going through confirmation prep and was told he must attend the diocesean retreat; no exceptions. This is a two day retreat held at a hotel event center with bands, skits, and stuff to “pump the kids up” about their faith. The issue for my son is that he is high functioning autism and has issues with crowds and loud noises. He also has social anxiety so being left at 14 with a couple hundred people he doesn’t know was just not going to work. We asked about if we could bring him and perhaps come get him during the event if his stress got too high and we’re told “no, he must attend all sessions including the evening sessions”. After trying to find a solution we finally talked to the Bishop. He said that the retreat is sponsored by the diocese as a convenience, but that he was fine if he did a silent retreat at a local retreat house with me. He said the goal it to get kids to reflect on the sacrament, but he understood that the diocesean retreat might not work for everyone. When we told the DRE, she was flabbergasted. She said there were no exceptions. When we asked if she had even asked the diocese or talked to the bishop, she told us no, she was only going of her understanding of the policy. So much for wanting to work with us.

I am lucky in the fact that we have a good relationship with our deacons and pastor and they are willing to listen to our concerns. They know we are vary serious about our children learning and living the faith so have worked with us on several occasions. That being said it would be nice to not have to rely on personal relationships to address short comings on how policies are written. If, by the grace of God, I am ordained to the diaconate in a few years, accomidating the large number of dedicated homeschooling Catholics is one of the things I have indicated to the Bishop I would like to help on.

 

[jmjZelie]

Yes, you addressed this upthread .

I can assure you that these teachings are not false----this addresses the catholic family hierarchy.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7794

The ccc paragraphs 1750-1752 address doing good for the wrong reasons and moral implications- you will see I am not conflating at all…if a person volunteers for benefits, vainglory, etc…it is addressed here. (You addressed this upthread a few times already, so it’s just backpocket info for you)

I never disagreed with the hierarchy of Catholic life. I disagreed with your assertion that volunteering should be done out of self- denial/humility, and not to ensure access to the sacraments. I also disagreed that volunteering at the parish equals putting God first. There are many times where putting God first means not volunteering during a season of life. If you are not actually asserting those points, then would you please clarify?

 

[Usige]

It took some time but I got through all 119 posts.

I am an Asst DRE at a large parish and would like to try and shed a little light on what may be going on in the OP’s parish’s side of the fence. As a matter of practice, we do not allow at home sacrament prep because it is up to us (the parish) to make sure the child is properly instructed and knowledgeable. We have over 100 families who use our home school religious ed option. Our program has a built-in component that allows us to monitor completion of work as well as understanding. Even with all of this high tech accountability, we must foster the sense of community - the origin of the word Communion.

While a small number of posts does not allow me to fully know or understand the OP, the reasons for not wanting to have her child attend classes sounded weak.

It is important to remember that the RE class is not a seperate community that is wholly distinct from the parish. My children are at the parish 2 or 3 times a week with various homeschool group activities and are active in parish life way beyond RE or Mass. Our children’s community extends beyond those in their age group, many of whom seem to disappear weeks after first communion. Community is organic and using RE classes as a forced community is a weak argument at best.

Given the large number of kids that can’t tell you the 10 commandments, the works of mercy, the precepts of the Church, etc. it is obvious that not every program has the same diligence as you do. Many are like failing schools that pass kids on as long as they haven’t missed too many classes. My whole problem with those who reject home education is that it assumes that the parents are not qualified to teach their children correctly. Maybe many, if not most, aren’t, but that does not mean it should be rejected out of hand. So how exactly am I less qualified to teach my children (and other’s in our support group) then Jenny’s mom who is doing it because she gets free tuition? Perhaps your area is different, but the only required training in my area is safe environment training. There is no requirement that the instructors are faithful to Church teaching or are living a lifestyle consistent with Catholic teaching. We had a couple in marriage prep/NFP who were lead catechists for 2nd grade. They were utterly offended when we jokingly said that abstaining while learning NFP shouldn’t be an issue since ether weren’t married. They straight faced asked how long they would need to abstain. And I said about 6 months until you get married. This was just after they had told us they were lead catechists and knew the faith backwards and forwards. Well, if you don’t even know that fornication is a sin, why would I trust you to instruct my children?

 

[jmjZelie]

It is important to remember that the RE class is not a seperate community that is wholly distinct from the parish. My children are at the parish 2 or 3 times a week with various homeschool group activities and are active in parish life way beyond RE or Mass. Our children’s community extends beyond those in their age group, many of whom seem to disappear weeks after first communion. Community is organic and using RE classes as a forced community is a weak argument at best.

Given the large number of kids that can’t tell you the 10 commandments, the works of mercy, the precepts of the Church, etc. it is obvious that not every program has the same diligence as you do. Many are like failing schools that pass kids on as long as they haven’t missed too many classes. My whole problem with those who reject home education is that it assumes that the parents are not qualified to teach their children correctly. Maybe many, if not most, aren’t, but that does not mean it should be rejected out of hand. So how exactly am I less qualified to teach my children (and other’s in our support group) then Jenny’s mom who is doing it because she gets free tuition? Perhaps your area is different, but the only required training in my area is safe environment training. There is no requirement that the instructors are faithful to Church teaching or are living a lifestyle consistent with Catholic teaching. We had a couple in marriage prep/NFP who were lead catechists for 2nd grade. They were utterly offended when we jokingly said that abstaining while learning NFP shouldn’t be an issue since ether weren’t married. They straight faced asked how long they would need to abstain. And I said about 6 months until you get married. This was just after they had told us they were lead catechists and knew the faith backwards and forwards. Well, if you don’t even know that fornication is a sin, why would I trust you to instruct my children?

And 2nd grade is the year for FHC, isn’t it?

It is amazing how backwards we humans can get things. And how often we put the cart before the horse. Prioritizing hygiene and cooking lessons over catechesis. Not knowing or believing that fornication is a sin. Insisting upon one method that makes no allowances for special needs or special circumstances. Couple that with the serious breach of trust that was made by the priests and bishops in preying upon children and paganizing parishes in the last century, it is very hard to find a way to practice the virtue of obedience while also protecting our children from physical and spiritual harm.

 

[bitterhope]

And 2nd grade is the year for FHC, isn’t it?

It is amazing how backwards we humans can get things. And how often we put the cart before the horse. Prioritizing hygiene and cooking lessons over catechesis. Not knowing or believing that fornication is a sin. Insisting upon one method that makes no allowances for special needs or special circumstances. Couple that with the serious breach of trust that was made by the priests and bishops in preying upon children and paganizing parishes in the last century, it is very hard to find a way to practice the virtue of obedience while also protecting our children from physical and spiritual harm.

Exactly.

 

[EasterJoy]

Also, not to attend these things imho perhaps teachers kids there is exceptions- today-religious ed—tommorrow perhaps things such as weekly or monthly confession because it is during family time. Perhaps mass then becomes inconvenient as it cuts intno sunday dinner, or there is a rude person at the door at church…

I would never volunteer just for the sake of having my child make a sacrament. That is volunteering for the wrong reasons. Catholic’s volunteer to glorify God and to give back to others, in time or talent, and to teach the spirit of service.

Why this critical aspect of serving God and others by attending these, in the spirit of self denai and humility is not grasped? Driving far away and other conflicts of time for re is a sacrifice-yes, however it is redemptive.Why is family coming before God?

This is not the lesson I wish to teach my kids. And it is just food for thought.

Peace.

You would* never* volunteer just for the sake of allowing your child to avail herself of the sacraments? Well, perhaps you have not been forced to make a choice between that and keeping your child out of harm’s way, such as leaving her with teachers who claim to be the voice of the Church but who pass off falsehood as if it were our holy faith. Some RE teachers are totally well-meaning, but ignorant, not knowing (for instance), that not all the popes have been canonized!

Perhaps you have always been in a parish that has read canon law and realizes that the sacraments are a right of the faithful and not a privilege to be doled out by parish staff members who arbitrarily substitute their human rules for the actual laws of God’s Church?

Do you want to teach a child humility? Teach your child that it is none of her business to be concerned with exceptions made for others. Otherwise, teach your child that a trial such as autism truly merits exceptions to rules made for people with typical neurological wiring, and is no excuse to indulge their own desire for convenience. Learning to make exceptions for others without using it as an excuse for yourself teaches empathy and compassion. Even the pagans get that much, without ever having the benefit of the plain meaning of the Gospels. (I hardly need to belabor the truth that the Gospels reserve special harshness for those who give human rules priority over the demands of mercy!)

Canon law teaches that sacramental preparation is the responsibility of the pastor and the parents. Teaching staff used by the pastor are wholly subordinate to those two.

 

[mommy_k]

I never disagreed with the hierarchy of Catholic life. I disagreed with your assertion that volunteering should be done out of self- denial/humility, and not to ensure access to the sacraments. I also disagreed that volunteering at the parish equals putting God first. There are many times where putting God first means not volunteering during a season of life. If you are not actually asserting those points, then would you please clarify?

It is my pleasure to clairify.

If you reread my post-the self denial and humility sentance was written to address concerns of parents who see confirmation retreats as a burden-due to time, distance, redundancy in lessons and so on.
The 1 paragraph regarding volunteering was posted when I assumed you were only volunteering to ensure the sacraments for your child,* without* compliance to the re program. You cleared that up in more recent posts… Volunteering should be to glorify God at any rate, not for self promotion etc, as stated in the ccc.

 

[jmjZelie]

It is my pleasure to clairify.

If you reread my post-the self denial and humility sentance was written to address concerns of parents who see confirmation retreats as a burden-due to time, distance, redundancy in lessons and so on.
The 1 paragraph regarding volunteering was posted when I assumed you were only volunteering to ensure the sacraments for your child,* without* compliance to the re program. You cleared that up in more recent posts… Volunteering should be to glorify God at any rate, not for self promotion etc, as stated in the ccc.

Thank you for clarifying. Now I see that we are not disagreeing at all. And yes, we are in compliance with the program completely, and have even done all of the optional things like the retreats (they do them for FHC too at a local retreat house) and extra activities suggested for at-home practice. Plus, I am looking into how to continue volunteering this summer for things like VBS, so that not only can I enable my kids to participate but I can also have something productive and fun to do with my time while they enjoy their VBS days. Still not totally altruistic, but in my opinion, they need warm bodies to help out and we need friends. So still a win-win. And they will let me volunteer while keeping my toddler with me, so therefore I have no excuse.

 

[mommy_k]

You would* never* volunteer just for the sake of allowing your child to avail herself of the sacraments? Well, perhaps you have not been forced to make a choice between that and keeping your child out of harm’s way, such as leaving her with teachers who claim to be the voice of the Church but who pass off falsehood as if it were our holy faith. Some RE teachers are totally well-meaning, but ignorant, not knowing (for instance), that not all the popes have been canonized!

Perhaps you have always been in a parish that has read canon law and realizes that the sacraments are a right of the faithful and not a privilege to be doled out by parish staff members who arbitrarily substitute their human rules for the actual laws of God’s Church?

Do you want to teach a child humility? Teach your child that it is none of her business to be concerned with exceptions made for others. Otherwise, teach your child that a trial such as autism truly merits exceptions to rules made for people with typical neurological wiring, and is no excuse to indulge their own desire for convenience. Learning to make exceptions for others without using it as an excuse for yourself teaches empathy and compassion. Even the pagans get that much, without ever having the benefit of the plain meaning of the Gospels. (I hardly need to belabor the truth that the Gospels reserve special harshness for those who give human rules priority over the demands of mercy!)

Canon law teaches that sacramental preparation is the responsibility of the pastor and the parents. Teaching staff used by the pastor are wholly subordinate to those two.

Yikes Easter Joy, that was pretty brutal. Who said anything about autism? Wow.

And my children are all humble, we all volunteer and thank you for your merciful and compassionate post.

 

[Brendan]

Actually, in our parish, the religious ed classes are for students in the parish Catholic school, public school students, and homeschoolers.

Regardless, all students, regardless of method of education/catechesis, would ideally be treated the same in terms of being welcomed and included.

In our parish, religious ed classes are offered, but the key is that the children have to pass a series of exams on common prayers, teaches of the Church on Holy Communion, parts of the Mass etc…

The classes cover the content, but a family that is homeschooling can simply show up on the exam dates.

If a child passes the exams, the pastor then considers them to be sufficiently instructed .

So, in our case, all the children are treated equally, and the desired outcome is the knowledge itself, NOT the number of classes attended.

 

[jmjZelie]

In our parish, religious ed classes are offered, but the key is that the children have to pass a series of exams on common prayers, teaches of the Church on Holy Communion, parts of the Mass etc…

The classes cover the content, but a family that is homeschooling can simply show up on the exam dates.

If a child passes the exams, the pastor then considers them to be sufficiently instructed .

So, in our case, all the children are treated equally, and the desired outcome is the knowledge itself, NOT the number of classes attended.

That is great!

 

[Usige]

In our parish, religious ed classes are offered, but the key is that the children have to pass a series of exams on common prayers, teaches of the Church on Holy Communion, parts of the Mass etc…

The classes cover the content, but a family that is homeschooling can simply show up on the exam dates.

If a child passes the exams, the pastor then considers them to be sufficiently instructed .

So, in our case, all the children are treated equally, and the desired outcome is the knowledge itself, NOT the number of classes attended.

That sounds reasonable. Just curious if the exams are verbal or written/multiple guess. If written do they allow kids to answer orally if they have some issue with written tests?

Really wondering since many homeschoolers evaluate by oral exam when the kids are young, so in first or second grade they might not be used to testing like kids in public or private school. I know one parish that does practice tests, but they are not made available to homeschoolers with the other required materials they have to buy.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yikes Easter Joy, that was pretty brutal. Who said anything about autism? Wow.

And my children are all humble, we all volunteer and thank you for your merciful and compassionate post.

There are good reasons for people getting exceptions to the rules. What business of yours is it to tell people what is and is not a worthy enough reason to volunteer? And yes, a poster on this thread had to go around the “no exceptions” RE apparatus at her parish in order to get an exception to the rule requiring a group retreat for her son who is high-functioning autistic. That is what it took so that he could be confirmed, because that’s how far this kind of thing goes when you go down the road of “I would never” and deciding for other people what kind of sacrifices are “redemptive” and which ones are pointless, unnecessary and ultimately unmerciful.

 

[mommy_k]

Thank you for clarifying. Now I see that we are not disagreeing at all. And yes, we are in compliance with the program completely, and have even done all of the optional things like the retreats (they do them for FHC too at a local retreat house) and extra activities suggested for at-home practice. Plus, I am looking into how to continue volunteering this summer for things like VBS, so that not only can I enable my kids to participate but I can also have something productive and fun to do with my time while they enjoy their VBS days. Still not totally altruistic, but in my opinion, they need warm bodies to help out and we need friends. So still a win-win. And they will let me volunteer while keeping my toddler with me, so therefore I have no excuse.

I’m happy we cleared that up too.. I used to volunteer at VBS -and some of our older kids
will be helpers this summer. It was a lot of fun and rewarding and yes, a great way to make friends!

 

[DarkLight]

People have to do what works for their own families. And there’s always someone who’s going to be unhappy or inflexible with that. Sometimes there’s good reason, sometimes there isn’t.

(I recall getting blasted on this forum for not dropping out of school to attend RCIA instead of making arrangements with the pastor. Just remember you can’t please everyone.)

 

[mommy_k]

There are good reasons for people getting exceptions to the rules. What business of yours is it to tell people what is and is not a worthy enough reason to volunteer? And yes, a poster on this thread had to go around the “no exceptions” RE apparatus at her parish in order to get an exception to the rule requiring a group retreat for her son who is high-functioning autistic. That is what it took so that he could be confirmed, because that’s how far this kind of thing goes when you go down the road of “I would never” and deciding for other people what kind of sacrifices are “redemptive” and which ones are pointless, unnecessary and ultimately unmerciful.

I am sorry but I find your posts amusing-because if you knew me, this conversation would never take place. Unmerciful? Without compassion? If you knew me you would know this is very far from the truth.

The definition of redemptive suffering in this context is to offer up some kind of burden. Since* some* posters shared common obstacles, it was appropriate advice.Of course there are exceptions… Sheesh… But as another poster stated--some had weak excuses, and you agreed.This was advice to some–not all.

And yes, I would never volunteer at any church or school activity to promote my self, or to gain an unfair advantage-without compliance, which was assumed and has since been cleared up.

So I take your posting hostility with a grain of salt, and kindly suggest that you have a nice relaxing bath, and perhaps a nice pot of tea. It will take the edge off.

 

[jmjZelie]

I am sorry but I find your posts amusing-because if you knew me, this conversation would never take place. Unmerciful? Without compassion? If you knew me you would know this is very far from the truth.

The definition of redemptive suffering in this context is to offer up some kind of burden. Since* some* posters shared common obstacles, it was appropriate advice.Of course there are exceptions… Sheesh… But as another poster stated--some had weak excuses, and you agreed.This was advice to some–not all.

And yes, I would never volunteer at any church or school activity to promote my self, or to gain an unfair advantage-without compliance, which was assumed and has since been cleared up.

So I take your posting hostility with a grain of salt, and kindly suggest that you have a nice relaxing bath, and perhaps a nice pot of tea. It will take the edge off.

Mommy k,
You are right that we have cleared up that misunderstanding, for which I am thankful…but I am confused about which part of my posting gave the impression that I was volunteering for the sake of gaining unfair advantage without compliance. Would you be willing to point out which post of mine, or which turn of phrase led to that understanding earlier. I want to make sure I avoid giving that impression in the future when discussing issues of volunteering and REP. Thank you.

And I know you weren’t addressing me with the suggestion of a hot bath and cuppa tea, but boy that sounds good to my weak and nauseous self. I think I will do so! :thankyou:

Peace, mommy K

 

[mommy_k]

I edited your post because I wanted to address only this portion.

This was exactly my thoughts. I was concerned about the quality of the catechesis at our new parish. I had no way of knowing if it was good or not, but this year was my son’s sacramental prep year (second one actually) for FHC. So I decided to just make myself a nuisance, and attend everything, and it turned out that they were happy about that because they were desperate for volunteers. Because of my presence, they were able to figure out how to manage a class that had no teacher at the same time as my son’s class. They simply combined the two classes and made me an assistant catechist. It was a win-win.

And now, I know that just volunteering and being a familiar face is the way to go for me personally to advocate for my family. And I do it despite being super busy, because we have a large family and we homeschool and I am pregnant again. I would probably be the last person they would think to be able to ask to become a volunteer, but I am happy to be there for so many reasons. And they never mind if I have to bring my other kids along now and then.

I know this won’t work for everyone, but I just want to stress that this is a good option to consider. I prefer the redundancy and the challenges of volunteering over the worries of access to the sacraments. The sacraments are our life!

Here we are–i snipped the sentences that led me to my conclusion. Whew-

Full post78 and 73.
jmjZelie;13839788:

Based upon what you have described, it seems to my perspective an inexcusable and arbitrary exclusion. But it is exactly what I have heard of happening over and over again, and what would likely have happened to my son at our new parish of i had attempted to do only home catechesis.
Going forward for my family, I intend to make sure that I can be a volunteer in the FHC and Confirmation prep years for all my children, or else find other arrangements at a parish that is in the next city over and is known for its friendliness to homeschool prep. Also, we are not homeowners, but renters, and I have no qualms about moving to the other parish if things become more difficult or if too many errors are being taught. /QUOTE)