Pastor David Jeremiah's sermon on OSAS

[MariaKnox]

Wow! Interestingly lame interpretation of Christianity.

Just remember Matthew 7:21-23:

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

[Also by the fruit you’ll recognize the tree]

James emphasizes faith AND action. That is what true Christianity is.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

• OSAS has been hashed here a lot, I think it easily fails the test of Scripture (let alone Tradition) so I want to focus on some other observations.
• He said “God will penalize you in this life” for your sins. Is this a common belief in Protestantism that you converts or lurking Protestants can affirm? For a Christian, there is temporal punishment for sin imposed by God? What is an example of this?
• Are Protestants who a) share Pastor Jeremiah’s beliefs and, b) fight against Catholic teaching, only doing so to help that Catholic prevent “loss of rewards”? After all, since the Catholic believes in Christ, and since Pastor Jeremiah says anyone who believes in Christ goes to heaven regardless of subsequent sin, there isn’t any reason to try to talk the Catholic out of sacraments, or penance, or Church hierarchy, etc… beyond “level” of reward, right?

Everything the pastor said is all true; however it is not all inclusive to what it means to be or how to become a Christian. That would be another sermon. Dr. Jeramiah is assuming “one desired to follow Him, denied self, is carrying their cross daily and following Him”; in other words they are a Christian.

As far as penalty, he is referring to the “chastening of the Lord” for sin and disobedience. Here is the Biblical example in which one looses all their rewards, yet still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If ***anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. ***15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Psalm 39:11 “With reproofs You chasten a man for iniquity;”

In this passage Paul gives the worse case scenario of chastisement by God, here the persons spirit is saved, but the flesh is turned over to Satan for destruction, which is death.

1 Co. 5:1-5
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided ***to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, ***so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

A great OT example of one being saved, but severely chastised by the Lord is the mighty “Samson”, the original Superman. He had his eyes gauged out and put on chains and made to be treated as an animal. He is listed in Hebrews 11, the heroes of the faith chapter.

In general, we don’t want to oversimplify what it means to believe in Christ. it means you believe everything about His nature and character and all that He is, both Lord and Savior, God and man, justifier and redeemer, sinless and perfect et al.

It is not easy to become a Christian, which I will elaborate if you would like me to from Scripture.

 

[TinaG]

Timothy’s post is very well put.

This is an old accusation Catholics make: Protestants don’t believe they need to live a holy life. It is manifestly untrue.

I heard someone ask a (Reformed) seminary professor which was true: that God sovereignly elects people for salvation, or that we choose to be saved and “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” He said both are in the Scriptures and neither can be ignored. Every word of Scripture is true. There are the elect, and there are those who are not, in Catholic terminology (I hope this is right) given the gift of final perseverance. It boils down to God is in control of the situation remotely, ultimately, and immediately, and man is in control only immediately . I am dissatisfied with what I just wrote, but it will have to do for now.

Reformed sermons typically are heavy on the call to repentence and living a godly life. There is a comfort in knowing that God will see you through. I fear that sarcasm is a poor tool indeed for dealing with this extremely important subject, as is scoffing. There has been too much of that on this thread.

-Tina

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Timothy’s post is very well put.

This is an old accusation Catholics make: Protestants don’t believe they need to live a holy life. It is manifestly untrue.

I heard someone ask a (Reformed) seminary professor which was true: that God sovereignly elects people for salvation, or that we choose to be saved and “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” He said both are in the Scriptures and neither can be ignored. Every word of Scripture is true. There are the elect, and there are those who are not, in Catholic terminology (I hope this is right) given the gift of final perseverance. It boils down to God is in control of the situation remotely, ultimately, and immediately, and man is in control only immediately . I am dissatisfied with what I just wrote, but it will have to do for now.

Reformed sermons typically are heavy on the call to repentence and living a godly life. There is a comfort in knowing that God will see you through. I fear that sarcasm is a poor tool indeed for dealing with this extremely important subject, as is scoffing. There has been too much of that on this thread.

-Tina

I would like to point something out that I never hear people, except myself and a few pastor-teachers who allude to it, that Scripture is written from God’s perspective and from mans perspective or reality; especially concerning salvation.

God perspective from eternity, where there is no such thing as time:
Romans 8 -
to those who are **called **according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Everything is spoken by Him and in the past tense, common to Greek, because it is so certain of happening it is as though it already happened, which from god’s perspective it has because whatever He purposes comes to pass.

Man’s perspective:
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. "

“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory”

“in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”

“are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood”

“**being justified **as a gift by His grace”

Here we have mans perspective because it is a life-long process because of “time”, but from God’s it is already completed because He purposed and He completed in eternity.

This is why the nonsense of losing one’s salvation is strictly the man’s perspective and the result of error in interpretation of Scripture and god’s purpose for the Christian.

Final note: there is a third perspective that combines God’s eternal perspective into man’s time perspective:
“He who began a good work in you will complete it til the day of Christ Jesus”

Here we have God saying it is done; yet in man’s time continuum, not God’s eternal. This is a hybrid of the previous two above.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Everyone has their own experiences I suppose. But the notion that OSAS Baptists and the sort lead lives more prone to sin or more likely to sin is comical. But then again it may just be the people I know. I know they say the same things about you guys. That
Catholics get to do whatever they want and then go to confession,…

You’ve never been to confession, have you?

If you have any conscience at all, you’re not comfortable heading in, but you feel light as a feather coming out.

That’s a bit of a speed bump on the road to sin, don’t you think? Before you take that lightly, let me assure you that I have consciously NOT done something that I did not want to have to confess later - on many occasions.

Look at this another way…would you be looking at pornography on the Internet if you knew that you would have to tell your wife about it later? :nope:

Non-Catholics, especially those who believe as the OP reveals, don’t have to “man up” to another human being…what a cushy way to go.

 

[Filioque]

Some of the confusion I have regarding the various strains of OSAS, and Election is that I’ve never heard the same Gospel preached by the various strains of the teaching.

When I investigated the Catholic Church, it was all laid out for me, what was expected of me by God, what should happen if while I was running the good race, I stumbled or took a wrong turn. How God was going to help me.

With the OSAS groups, I got, "You are not saved, because you have not accepted Jesus as your savior. (in the way our group defines it) all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart. Later it was, well you really did not accept Jesus, or you would not have diabetes, or cancer or this or that financial trouble.

Another OSAS group also preaching that “All you have to do is accept Jesus” later it becomes and you have to do this then you have to do that.

So my confusion is why preach, “All you have to do is accept Jesus” only to later add conditions? How can it be taught, “Accept Jesus, be saved” you know you are saved, and later be told, you did it all wrong, so we say you were never saved.

Seems a strange and contradictory system.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Some of the confusion I have regarding the various strains of OSAS, and Election is that I’ve never heard the same Gospel preached by the various strains of the teaching.

When I investigated the Catholic Church, it was all laid out for me, what was expected of me by God, what should happen if while I was running the good race, I stumbled or took a wrong turn. How God was going to help me.

With the OSAS groups, I got, "You are not saved, because you have not accepted Jesus as your savior. (in the way our group defines it) all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart. Later it was, well you really did not accept Jesus, or you would not have diabetes, or cancer or this or that financial trouble.

Another OSAS group also preaching that “All you have to do is accept Jesus” later it becomes and you have to do this then you have to do that.

So my confusion is why preach, “All you have to do is accept Jesus” only to later add conditions? How can it be taught, “Accept Jesus, be saved” you know you are saved, and later be told, you did it all wrong, so we say you were never saved.

Seems a strange and contradictory system.

You might try looking at the source of Salvation, which is not the precepts of men; look at the Bible. On your knees is a good place to start, then the epistle to the Romans.

 

[MarcoPolo]

This is an old accusation Catholics make: Protestants don’t believe they need to live a holy life. It is manifestly untrue.

I specifically said that Pastor Jeremiah would discourage a person who has accepted Christ from sinning. He even said it would be nice to tell God you’re sorry after sinning. But what I said was that he takes away any real aversion to sinning after one has professed Christ. He makes any post “born again” sin inconsequential to a person’s salvation. Like I said, he does not encourage anyone to go on sinning, but he effectively makes any degree of sinning after being “born again” nothing to be afraid of. He seems to believe no such sin causes damage to the soul. LIke I said, the subject of this sermon was getting to live without fear, and that includes fear of sinning. I think that is a dangerous way to approach things. I think his attitude fosters a “who cares” attitude toward whether or not one sins. Why not sleep with that girl—all my future sins are covered!

You say well what about when I sinned as a Christian? That’s a relationship issue. You need to go to your Father and say Father I’m sorry and get things right with Him, but it doesn’t have anything to do with your position before God. - Pastor Jeremiah

 

[MarcoPolo]

As far as penalty, he is referring to the “chastening of the Lord” for sin and disobedience. Here is the Biblical example in which one looses all their rewards, yet still saved.

Regarding the penalty for a Christian’s sin, this is what Pastor Jeremiah said:*God will penalize you in this life, but you will never stand before God again to give an account for your sin.*Your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:15 stated that a person can lose “all his rewards” and still be saved. Are you talking about rewards and punishment in this life or the afterlife?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Regarding the penalty for a Christian’s sin, this is what Pastor Jeremiah said:God will penalize you in this life, but you will never stand before God again to give an account for your sin.Your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:15 stated that a person can lose “all his rewards” and still be saved. Are you talking about rewards and punishment in this life or the afterlife?

It is both, which is why I cited more than one passage because Dr. Jeremiah addressed both issues. Anyone that has listen to the pastor will know he is as solid a Biblical pastor-teacher as one can get. He does not condone sinning, but his point is the Christian has been forgiven ALL of their sins and have passed from judgment into eternal life.

"therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

This is the Christian…period. If one continues in a continual pattern and regular unbroken practice of sin, then that person is a phony and NOT a Christian. Why? Evidence contrary to the “New Creation” or the New Nature in Christ.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You might try looking at the source of Salvation, which is not the precepts of men; look at the Bible. On your knees is a good place to start, then the epistle to the Romans.

Why do you think that a Catholic would not already know what you have just written?

What arrogance.

 

[MarcoPolo]

It is both, which is why I cited more than one passage because Dr. Jeremiah addressed both issues.

From what I heard, the Pastor said no sin committed by a Christian has any effect beyond this life–any punishment is temporal. There won’t even be an examination of a Christian’s sins in the afterlife. Do you agree that’s what he asserted?

 

[MarcoPolo]

If one continues in a continual pattern and regular unbroken practice of sin, then that person is a phony and NOT a Christian. Why? Evidence contrary to the “New Creation” or the New Nature in Christ.

See post 12.

 

[regression]

If one continues in a continual pattern and regular unbroken practice of sin, then that person is a phony and NOT a Christian. Why? Evidence contrary to the “New Creation” or the New Nature in Christ.

What is the definition of a continual pattern and regular unbroken practice of sin? Is that committing the same sin every day, every week, every month? That is where the definition gets vague for me.

Usually when I hear assurance of salvation, I think that person beliefs 100% they are going straight to heaven after they die. However, what if someone commits the same sin after he accepts Christ. How does he know he is not in a continual pattern?

 

[JustaServant]

Great. According to him, I can go and commit any sin I want, so long as I believe in Christ. What do I care if I am penalized in this life, it is going to end soon anyway, plus I have eternal life waiting for me. WooHoo let the party begin.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but everything he is saying is so false that I can’t even believe he said it.

I don’t think it’s quite fair to say all OSAS adherants believe that. They would be classified as ‘antinomian’ (no law). Now granted, that is the logical destination this theology leads to. But most evangelicals use two ‘fences’ to handle this illogical theology. They would say they were ‘never saved in the first place’ (NSITFP) or they are ‘put on a shelf’ until they repent. Neither of these explanations are able to hold up the theology, but its all they have. Without these two pillers, the rest of their theology falls apart. So they end up in a mental merry-go-round.
There are some very sincere people who believe in OSAS and NSITFP. Seeing the fallacy of this web is not an easy thing.
I know, OSAS was hard for me to let go of.

 

[Filioque]

You might try looking at the source of Salvation, which is not the precepts of men; look at the Bible. On your knees is a good place to start, then the epistle to the Romans.

Thanks for assuming that I have not found it. Thanks for presuming I’ve not gotten on my knees. Nope been there done that. Found Reformed Theology to be lacking, and failing at the bar of Scripture. Your suggestions are the very reason I found that the Church Jesus founded, and promised to remain with until the end of time was the place for me, at His feet. I’ve been working out my salvation in the manner St. Paul spoke of as a Convert to the Catholic Church for 24 years now, in the sure hope of Eternal Life.

 

[Philthy]

Anyone that has listen to the pastor will know he is as solid a Biblical pastor-teacher as one can get.

I think he is nobody special. You simply dont have any pastoral giants in your church to compare him to. Is he an Augustine? An Aquinas? A St Ambrose? St Gregory?
He is nobody and I’d be surprised if you could find 50 people who even know his name during his lifetime. Just imagine how insignificant he will be 20 years after his death, then 100 years later, then 500 years. He is no one important, and the poor quality of the section of writing of the OP reveals his insignificance aptly to those who have read and understand what it means to be truly “solid”. He aint it.

 

[Philthy]

Thanks for assuming that I have not found it. Thanks for presuming I’ve not gotten on my knees. Nope been there done that. Found Reformed Theology to be lacking, and failing at the bar of Scripture. Your suggestions are the very reason I found that the Church Jesus founded, and promised to remain with until the end of time was the place for me, at His feet. I’ve been working out my salvation in the manner St. Paul spoke of as a Convert to the Catholic Church for 24 years now, in the sure hope of Eternal Life.

Amen brother! Dont let these spiritual infants, who fancy themselves “solid” spiritual leaders confuse you. OSAS is the very heresy Paul rejected in Romans (6 I believe). There is a long list of errant, dangerous thinking that OSAS spawns. It all starts with a very narrow understanding of salvation (Salvation is “all God” and it’s a one time event during our mortal lives) and then grows progressively unbiblical through ignoring/explaining away everything (biblical or not) which contradicts that very narrow view. Here is a short list of the falsehoods promoted by OSAS adherents - whether they realize it or not.

• God works good for Christians through their sin, therefore sin is God’s Will and not a concern…
• All my sins have been atoned for, therefore no sin can separate me from God…
• All warnings regarding the eternal consequences of sin are for non-believers (see James 2, Eph 5, Gal 5, 1 Cor 6 etc, etc. for the biblical perspective)
• We will be judged by Christs righteousness alone and our works of the flesh are inconsequential in eternity (See Matt 25 for the biblical perspective)
• Our good deeds only effect our rewards in eternity and not our salvation

Anyone who has a living relationship with Christ knows in the depths of their hearts that God never wills them to sin and that by sinning they are rejecting his Him and rejecting - ie disbelieving - his promise to uphold them in their trials (1 Cor 10:13). God has written this basic truth on our hearts and enlightens us in the place where grace and free will intersect: our conscience. Empty theological speculations presented as spiritual wisdom do nothing to change this fundamental dynamic.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

As far as penalty, he is referring to the “chastening of the Lord” for sin and disobedience. Here is the Biblical example in which one looses all their rewards, yet still saved.

Hi Tim. No where in the verse does it say that “all” their rewards are lost - perhaps you are reading into it what you expect it to say. Furthermore, it is unclear what the burning is and what, exactly, it refers to. Other sections of Scripture are abundantly clear, yet you choose to hang onto relatively ambiguous theological speculations from verses such as this and ignore clear warnings regarding our behavior and eternal life. Matt 25, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21, 1 Cor 6:9 etc etc etc
Tim Piper:

In this passage Paul gives the worse case scenario of chastisement by God, here the persons spirit is saved, but the flesh is turned over to Satan for destruction, which is death.

This seems quite foolish to me. Being persecuted to the point of death for one’s faith is the ultimate call of a Christian because it emulates most perfectly Christs call to “follow me”. Isnt that exactly what most of the Apostles did?? Are you really gonna claim that they fell into the “worst case scenarion” and experienced “chastisement by God”??? That is just plain silly, but it is a very good illustration how easily some will accept any interpretation that fits into their theology without truly being aware of the implications of that interpretation. For that I thank you. And that is merely one level of inadequacy of your thinking on this topic. On another level, how, exactly, is it a bad thing for our earthly life to end and for us to be with God? That is our ultimate calling, our hope! As John says in 1John 2:18, “Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
What do you think the words, “Thy kingdom come” mean from the prayer Christ taught us to pray??? No, Im afraid your comments above dont even begin to explain why Paul speaks on the issues he does.
Tim Piper:

5 I have decided ***to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, ***so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Interesting verse you present as an OSAS adherent. My first comment is that it doesnt say he will be saved, as you have assumed. It says so that his spirit MAY be saved. But that is minor compared to the next point.
Paul says that “I have decided” meaning Paul, himself, “have decided to deliver” him “so that” he “may be saved”. That sure sounds like Paul is saying a few things that you reject outright theologically:
First, Paul is saying that he is playing a role in this person’s salvation - its not merely being left up to God
Second, Paul’s statement implies that if he didnt take this action this individual MIGHT NOT BE SAVED. That completely contradicts your theology of the “elect”. If this person is one of the “elect” as you understand the term, Paul would never feel the need to do anything WITH RESPECT TO HIS SALVATION. But he does! He feels its imperative to take action “so that (he) may be saved”. That completely flies in the face of OSAS and much of your theology of salvation and rewards - at least it seems that way to my feeble mind.

Blessings!

 

[RedBert]

Great. According to him, I can go and commit any sin I want, so long as I believe in Christ. What do I care if I am penalized in this life, it is going to end soon anyway, plus I have eternal life waiting for me. WooHoo let the party begin.

Romans 6:
1:What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 :God forbid.

True Christianity is the only religion where you get to whatever your heart desires.

And what does a True Christian’s heart desire? To please GOD!!!

Not out of obligations or some rule book , but out of LOVE for the SAVIOUR of your soul.

Everything Jesus did was to please the FATHER.

Everything Paul tried to do was to please God. Did he fall short? Of course he did, and so do we.

And when Paul fell short , he repented. He did not take PRIDE in his sin.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but everything he is saying is so false that I can’t even believe he said it.

oh and BTW : I believe almost everything he said:
it is basic Fundamental, Bible based, Christianity: Protestantism 101