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Timothy_Piper
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What would you cause a Christian to speak evil of anyone?
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LionHeart777
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As a former adherent to OSAS (as a Protestant), I would say that the biggest thing that convinced me was that this is not true is that it simply was not a belief of the early Church. Two things in tandem changed my thinking I think; the first eye opener was the claim of someone on a website that this teaching did not come about until Calvin. Well, when I started reading Eusebius’ History of the Church and the ECF’s I realised that this was not a belief of the earlier Christians.
I think if one is objective, they will admit that there are passages in the Bible that tend to support the belief that one can “lose” their salvation. There are others that seem to support the belief that one cannot.
This is where I think Tradition comes in to play a role-- the fact is, from what I can tell of the early Church- OSAS would be a foreign concept to Her.
Re: David Jerimiah… I have the impression of him that he is a man of God, walking by the Light he has.
In his defense, as far as the discussion of him goes, I did hear him say once while teaching on how a Christian could not be lost that, some might say that now they can go out and do whatever they want; to which he replied that if that is someone’s heart than he doubts whether they know the Lord (my paraphrase from memory of the whole teaching and words of him.)
–That being said, I still reject OSAS.
My :twocents: for now.
-Nick
I think if one is objective, they will admit that there are passages in the Bible that tend to support the belief that one can “lose” their salvation. There are others that seem to support the belief that one cannot.
This is where I think Tradition comes in to play a role-- the fact is, from what I can tell of the early Church- OSAS would be a foreign concept to Her.
Re: David Jerimiah… I have the impression of him that he is a man of God, walking by the Light he has.
In his defense, as far as the discussion of him goes, I did hear him say once while teaching on how a Christian could not be lost that, some might say that now they can go out and do whatever they want; to which he replied that if that is someone’s heart than he doubts whether they know the Lord (my paraphrase from memory of the whole teaching and words of him.)
–That being said, I still reject OSAS.
My :twocents: for now.
-Nick
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RedBert
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bold added by me
Agreed: See my post #40
I am always interested in what John (**desiringgod.**org) Piper has to say.
Tim, are you related?
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RedBert
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so Nick, how does someone keep their salvation?
and how does someone once saved , loose their salvation?
(in your own words please)
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Timothy_Piper
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You do not only not understand the power of God and the purpose of the Christian, but neither do you use sound logic in your reasoning. Just because god took out the Apostles has nothing to do with whether they produced fruit or not; He had a specific purpose for them, like He does all people, and when it is fulfilled, He will also bring them home. Otherwise, based on your “logic”, as long as one is producing fruit they would live on and on on earth.
I must say I am shocked and amazed to find you repeating the exact same comments that you offered earlier only to apologize for. I will repeat my response once again: Here is something personal just so you can distinguish the difference; you girl, are quite the drama queen.
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Timothy_Piper
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The biggest objection comes from those who believe one can loose their salvation contrary to the power of God in salvation. OSAS is not a salvation issue. Many mature Christians will not accept it, but when they get to Heaven they will discover it was true. The danger is the false sense of security by those who tell people you said a prayer and don’t ever let anyone question your salvation, this is contrary to Scripture, which tells us to examine ourselves. The security of the believer is certainly easily shown in Scripture, but God will not give the confidence of Salvation unless one is continuing to be faithful and obedient to Him, then by His blessing He will allow a true sense of security; I can’t say that for all, but just based on my personal experience, those mature in Christ which i have spoken to about this and all agree it is a blessing and opens a whole new appreciation and motivation toward the Lord.
I’m certain you know some of your own that do this as with all religious people in all religions.
That would to presume that God has nothing to do with Salvation.
What does “working out your own salvation” mean to you?
Do you understand the power of God in Salvation?
Could never happen and let’s say I did give into a temptation as grave as what you described. What do you think my conscience would be doing before, during and especially after the event? I would be so full of guilty conscience that the misery effects would stop from ever happening again. i would be on my knees begging God to forgive my stupidity and thanking Him at the same time for convicting me and saving me. I would also be praying for greater wisdom. I would be a basket case before God. As far as the congregation, some would condemn, but the mature in Christ would follow the Biblical example and reach out a hand of fellowship, accountability and charity.
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Timothy_Piper
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Hi Nick,
How do you reconcile all that you just said to this one verse of on of the most respected ECf, the Apostle John? Please elaborate.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, **so that you may know that you have eternal life. **
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Timothy_Piper
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The post was not directed at you, but rather to complement you passage. I have been asked the question about being John Pipers son once before. My answer is this; does he have a son named Timothy?
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MarcoPolo
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Timothy, did I miss your answer to this?
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regression
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Actually for me, I usually go to church Saturday evenings, but I try to live as God wants me to every day!
CentralFLJames in post 49 pretty much took the words out of my mouth. When I hear OSAS, I think of a guy I know. He says when he was a teenager / young adult, he accepted Jesus as his personal lord and savior. And no matter what he does, he is going to heave. So far, he is involved in drugs and has gotten 3 different women pregnant. One of who he eventually married, but is in the process of getting a divorce. Through out it all, he is 100% he is going to heaven and nothing he does will change that.
I’m not saying that is how you view OSAS, because it doesn’t sound like you do. I don’t know what percentage of people believe as he does. All I know is he is on a dangerous path.
I try and live as Jesus taught. I follow the church he founded. When I fall, I seek grace through the sacrament of confession. If I continue this, I believe I will get to heaven. However, if tomorrow I wake up and decided God is not real, all religion is a sham, then although I tried to live as Jesus would want up until now, if I continue my disbelief in God, I won’t be too happy when I die. That is how I can loose my salvation. God wants everyone in heaven. However, it is up to us to accept it. At any point I can turn away from God and reject him. That is me loosing my salvation.
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Timothy_Piper
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Yes you did. The Christian by nature is no longer under condemnation and has passed from the penalty of sin, which is death, into eternal life.
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Timothy_Piper
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In you example, it pretty easy to distinguish he is a phony, someone probably told him at one time to pray a prayer and don’t ever let anyone tell you, you are not saved. That is a false Gospel of “Easy Believism”. Becoming a Christian is not easy and Jesus told us this in Matthew 7 and Luke 4. This is why most who think they are, are not. i’ll be willing to bet that the person you mentioned knows in his heart of hearts he is not even close to the Kingdom.
The reason you can’t lose your salvation because at the point of you salvation you completely surrendered all by choice to Jesus. Once you are His, He bought you with a price and made the Christian into a New Creation in Christ. You made the choice, you can’t turn back and if you do turn back, there no longer remains a way of salvation and you were self-deceived into thinking you accepted the Gift of God.
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regression
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Well, I guess that part I still don’t understand. Right now I believe in God. I believe Jesus is his son and died to take away our sins. It is because of God’s grace I have salvation. But, what if in a year from now, or five years, or ten, etc, I stop believing in God. Then I loose my salvation. If you say well I was never saved in the first place, how do I know?
That is the part of assurance of salvation I don’t get. There is no litmuth test (hope I spelled that right) to test to see if one is saved or not. Everything I have heard to see if one is saved is subjective.
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LionHeart777
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Hello RedBert,
I think that someone keeps their salvation by not comitting (a) mortal sin, which should cover both questions.
Hello Timothy.
Admittedly, this is a passage that stumps me as someone in the process of “swimming the Tiber.” I think I reconcile it by recognizing that I don’t have all the anwers and by trying to be ok with that.
I think that if one were going by Scripture alone, then I think that they could find evidence for “Conditional Security” and for “Eternal security” in Scripture.
To split hairs though, John is not an ECF, as the term is generally used, at least in Catholic Christian and perhaps Orthodox Christian circles.
As you might know, St. Polycarp is known to have been a disciple of St. John, and St. Ignatius of Antioch was a contemporary of St. Polycharp his letter to Polycarp proves. Polycarp had St. Ignatius’ letters forwarded to other Churches I believe, and if you want I will find the proof from an early document, don’t have it at the top of my head. This is all of a side note to say that St. Polycarp didn’t seem to object to anything St. Ignatius wrote as he forwarded his letters on. I would argue that if you read enough of St. Ignatius, you will see that he appears to be very Catholic. (anyway I digress, probably a topic for another thread.)
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LionHeart777
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This might get lengthy so I split the post up:
Here is an interesting story about St. John as found in Eusebius, which I commented on on a very rough draft of something I was writing this year (I have attached it as an “attachment to this post” as it has my sources corresponding to the footnotes.)
The first example involves a story about John relayed by Clement of Alexandria, whom Eusebius testifies that Clement is a witness who could “…hardly be doubted…” [2.] The translation that I am using is by G.A. Williamson, available from Penguin Books, and the story can be found on pages 83-85. I will at this time add my current thoughts on the story, but I will mention that the language that had grabbed my attention in Eusebius regarding the subject of this document was language like “…Completely renouncing God’s salvation…” [2.]
Now, the story involves the Apostle John committing to the care of a Bishop a certain young man. The Bishop had “’…finally gave him the grace of baptism…After this he relaxed his constant care…having put upon him the seal of the Lord…’” [2.] This young man eventually fell into sin “’…Completely renouncing God’s salvation…’” [2] When John had returned, he asked about the man. The Bishop informed him that, “’…He is dead to God: he turned out wicked and profligate…’” [2.] John lamented and went after him, and when he found him, John said to him, “’…Why do you run away from me child - from your own father…You still have hopes of life. I will account to Christ for you…Stop! believe! Christ sent me.”’ [2.] The young man was sad and obeyed John, who in turn “’…restored him to the Church, giving a perfect example of true repentance and a perfect proof of regeneration…’” [2.] As the reader can see, I have paraphrased the story and edited the words, but I would hope that they would consult the original work and read the story for themselves. I will end by saying that here we have a young man who had “the seal of the Lord”, who later, in my opinion, had lost his salvation, but then was fortunately restored.
To me, if this story is true and accurate, this does not sound like a St. John who believes in eternal security.
p.s. please excuse the “un-orthodox” footnotes.
Here is an interesting story about St. John as found in Eusebius, which I commented on on a very rough draft of something I was writing this year (I have attached it as an “attachment to this post” as it has my sources corresponding to the footnotes.)
The first example involves a story about John relayed by Clement of Alexandria, whom Eusebius testifies that Clement is a witness who could “…hardly be doubted…” [2.] The translation that I am using is by G.A. Williamson, available from Penguin Books, and the story can be found on pages 83-85. I will at this time add my current thoughts on the story, but I will mention that the language that had grabbed my attention in Eusebius regarding the subject of this document was language like “…Completely renouncing God’s salvation…” [2.]
Now, the story involves the Apostle John committing to the care of a Bishop a certain young man. The Bishop had “’…finally gave him the grace of baptism…After this he relaxed his constant care…having put upon him the seal of the Lord…’” [2.] This young man eventually fell into sin “’…Completely renouncing God’s salvation…’” [2] When John had returned, he asked about the man. The Bishop informed him that, “’…He is dead to God: he turned out wicked and profligate…’” [2.] John lamented and went after him, and when he found him, John said to him, “’…Why do you run away from me child - from your own father…You still have hopes of life. I will account to Christ for you…Stop! believe! Christ sent me.”’ [2.] The young man was sad and obeyed John, who in turn “’…restored him to the Church, giving a perfect example of true repentance and a perfect proof of regeneration…’” [2.] As the reader can see, I have paraphrased the story and edited the words, but I would hope that they would consult the original work and read the story for themselves. I will end by saying that here we have a young man who had “the seal of the Lord”, who later, in my opinion, had lost his salvation, but then was fortunately restored.
To me, if this story is true and accurate, this does not sound like a St. John who believes in eternal security.
p.s. please excuse the “un-orthodox” footnotes.
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LionHeart777
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My posts seem to me not to relate to the O.P. so would completely understand if the Moderator(s) move them to the current thread on OSAS.
To whom it may concern,
please excuse/forgive my transgressing of the forum rules, as I believe I have done, my keeping them up and my apology in advance.
-Nick
To whom it may concern,
please excuse/forgive my transgressing of the forum rules, as I believe I have done, my keeping them up and my apology in advance
.-Nick
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MarcoPolo
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So why should anyone who is Christian avoid sin? How does Pastor Jeremiah’s attitude encourage living rightly beyond initial acceptance of Christ?
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RedBert
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Because your heart’s greatest desire is do what is pleasing to your Lord and Saviour.
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LionHeart777
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Marco Polo,
you said in the follow up comments on the pastor’s comments;
–Nick
you said in the follow up comments on the pastor’s comments;
I think the Catholic teaching is that temporal punishments are due to sin also, no? At least that was my understanding.
–Nick
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Philthy
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