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joe370
Guest
Tim, obedience to whom? I mean, besides Jesus Christ.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
I googled “never saved to begin with” and got 2600 hits. Not a lot. “Never a Christian to begin with” and got under 400 hits.
It does not appear to be a common argument. Many of the hits dealt with people stating that some people use the argument; not the argument itself.
It does not appear to be a common argument. Many of the hits dealt with people stating that some people use the argument; not the argument itself.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Devout religions persons, regardless of the denomination, believe, by the teaching of men, they must perform for and with God to be free from sin and the guilt of sin; it has nothing to do with Christ and Him crucified. It is about “self”; self righteous, self-deception and self serving; whereas Jesus said if you desire to follow me “deny yourself”. In the chain of bondage to sin of self and works, no one is able to free themselves and God will not unless one completely denies themselves. My chains were broken a few years ago and believe me, “when the Son sets you free, you are truly free” from the bondage of sin.
Doesn’t mean you don’t have guilt of sin; in fact it is magnified because of the magnitude of the forgiveness you have received and the associated thankfulness and this causes you to become more sensitive and aware of the smallest of sins and come to the Father letting Him know you are sorry.
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RedBert
Guest
Consider a baby lion or tiger cub. (not a perfect analogy)
Just a few weeks old, still only drinking its mother milk.
They never had meat in their life. Are the cubs carnivores?
Yes, by NATURE they are carnivores.
Psalm 51 : 5 “ Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
By nature we are sinners: but when we are made new creatures in Christ our NATURE has change.
Do we still sin? Yes, just as Moses, David, Abraham, Paul, etc.
But our view on sin has changed, there is no “pride in our sins”, and we see our sin as an offence to God.
so, yes I think that Pastor sins every day, at least in thought and maybe in deed… so do I. (Including sins of commission AND sins of omission.)
and yes I struggle with temptation everyday. but there is absolutely no fear that God will leave or forsake me. and the more I seek and desire to please my Lord, the less that it an issue.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Is there any other name given to which we can be saved?
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Philthy
Guest
This is all excelent - I have no gripe with it. This does not seem to be what the pastor actually said though. He said…
The “new creation” in Christ has a “changed heart” that desires what Christ desires. That is the claim, and its mostly true. The problem is that Satan is “still at work in our members” and tempts us, and our changed heart can change again. That same individual will, at times, follow desires of their heart which are not at all what Christ desires. That means during that time that heart has abandoned - at least temporarily - that living vibrant relationship with Christ and has traded it for love of self. If the choice is catastrophic (ie adultery, theft, murder, etc) the relationship requires restoration without which that soul comes into jeopardy of “not inheriting the kingdom of God” at death because they are no longer “in Christ”. It is not a question of fearing “that God will leave” us - he wont, its a question of us abandoning Him. This is exactly what Paul “warns” the believers of in the churches in Ephesia, Galatia (Ch5 in each) and 1 Corinthians (Ch6). Certain unrepentant sins disqualify us from inheriting the kingdom of God.
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Philthy
Guest
Interesting - I googled “never saved to begin with” and got over 48 million hits in under .4 seconds here:
google.com/search?q=never+saved+to+begin+with&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-aYou might wanna give it another try in GOOGLE -not some wanna be search engine.
You mentioned you were just getting out of the seminary - congratulations! :tiphat:
You have a little catching up to do in the real world, however. When confronted with the REALITY that some people( who by all objective standards would be described as Christians) fall into unrepentant sin, apostosy, etc etc OSASers single most common explanation for this apparent contradiction is that “they must not have been saved in the first place"or they were never truly Christian” etc etc. Initially they try to have it both ways and say that “We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone” meaning that anyone who is saved will produce good works while simultaneously being unable to agree with the necessary corollary that if you are not producing good works you must not have salvation faith. They dont like that corollary at all! Eventually these arguments are worn down and they get to their last attempt at holding it all together. You see, this last desperate attempt usually comes after it is reiterated by them that salvation is by grace through faith alone, and that our works have no part in salvation. They usually toss out some Romans stuff and Eph 2:8-9 at this point. Then the whole topic of James 2 comes up by way of a Catholic - you know the verses you never hear in a sermon - “You see that a man is justified by works and not faith alone”; “just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith if it is not accompanied by works is dead”; and lastly “If a man says he has faith but has not works will that faith save him?”. When confronted with those passages that even they simply cannot ignore, the OSASers usually focus on the quality of faith being discussed and rationalize that James is merely addressing those who merely claim to have faith, but really have a dead faith that does not produce works - you know, false Christians. Then, sensing an opportunity to actually make sense of their theology and James’ clear rejection of it, they extrapolate that those individuals who fall into unrepentant sin, apostosy etc were “never truly saved to begin with” - they had a “dead faith”. Aterall, what other possible explanation is there??? That they are saved anyhow??? :bigyikes:
What direction did the discussion take in seminary school?
Blessings!
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brb2
Guest
Yes, God’s Spirit will leave us … after a period of willful disobedience w/o repentance. The Holy will not abide forever in an unholy vessel. Granted, its always our fault. We are the first to abandon Christ, desirous of returning back to the worldly sins. God knows when we are unrepentant … and then comes His judgment upon us. Judgment is necessary to remind the Prodigal of his mortal error. If not for God’s judgment, many would never return to their FIRST LOVE.
This happened to David, ---- and the same has happened to many wayward Protestants, who think they have inherited Bombproof Salvation and can do what they wish, … and only at risk of losing rewards, not their eternal inheritance. Its otherwise referred to in Scriptures by Paul … as making Shipwreck of one’s life.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
If I were OSAS and believed in absolute certitude of my salvation, that’s exactly the conclusion I’d have!! But you say you are a new creation all done by the work of God. Yet you still sin. God’s masterpiece was to create you anew, but still a sinner? I think the no fear of sinning mentality fosters an environment in which a person could justify, say, fornication, because they figure they will do it only once and not create the “pattern” that Timothy is talking about that shows they aren’t saved to begin with.
For Scripture on falling from grace, there are probably hundreds. Need I go into them? One good one is in Luke 15 where one of the “sheep” goes “lost” and it needs to be brought back “home” again. That chapter also includes the parable of the Prodigal son who was “in” his father’s house, then “out” of his father’s house, and again later, back “in” his father’s house.
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Philthy
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baby steps brb2…we’ll get there eventually
Even more apropos - Paul said it makes a shipwreck of one’s…FAITH!
1Tim 1:19: By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith,
Of course he cant be talking about salvation, though…
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
No such thing as a false Christian nor a Christian that can be separated from the love of God; only a non-believer can be separated and in fact is separated from God.
For the record; Jesus said tells the Christian how to make distinctions, which James verifies and you don’t seem to understand.
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 **"So then, you will know them by their fruits. **
This is James entire point; you say you have faith do you and have no works (fruit); I will show you my faith by my works (fruit). What you fail to see is that true saving faith will result in righteous produce; otherwise that profession of faith was false. When James says that works justify; he is not speaking about justification by God, but justifying the claim by the man of faith to his peers. God need not to see works to know if one is justified in his sight; He is the one who justifies.
This is the point Paul makes in Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. Then before who? goats and rams?
"just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
Then John adds more to the whole of Scripture in this regard; that one was never saved to begin with.
1Jo 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Human intelligence and human wisdom and human logic and human feelings are no substitute for true wisdom, knowledge and understanding, which comes from God and those that have received the gift of God and have been given the “mind of Christ”.
Yes I am a little upset, not because of you personally; I just get upset when His Word is under attack by human thought and feelings substituted for divine knowledge of His word.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
There is good reason you feel this way and good reason the OP feels the way he does. You have not experienced what we have. The effect of sin and the assurance of salvation has the opposite effect that human understanding and wisdom would think concerning sin. Little sins are actually magnified and a sin of fornication would devastate the conscience to a point one would never want to think of entering into.
It is just as Christ said; “when you are set free from the bondage of sin, sin has little power over you; you will sin, but the new nature in Christ will bring it very quickly and strongly to your attention and I mean the smallest of sin.”
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.baby steps brb2…we’ll get there eventually
Even more apropos - Paul said it makes a shipwreck of one’s…FAITH!
1Tim 1:19: By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith,
Of course he cant be talking about salvation, though…
What did Hymenaeus and Alexander reject? faith & good conscience or faith and repentance or the Gift of God; take your pick, but these are not Christians as you would like to make them.
Need proof? See 2 Timothy 2:14-18
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Rightlydivide
Guest
162000 hits on google. That is more.Interesting - I googled “never saved to begin with” and got over 48 million hits in under .4 seconds here:
google.com/search?q=never+saved+to+begin+with&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
You might wanna give it another try in GOOGLE -not some wanna be search engine.
You mentioned you were just getting out of the seminary - congratulations! :tiphat:
You have a little catching up to do in the real world, however. When confronted with the REALITY that some people( who by all objective standards would be described as Christians) fall into unrepentant sin, apostosy, etc etc OSASers single most common explanation for this apparent contradiction is that “they must not have been saved in the first place"or they were never truly Christian” etc etc. Initially they try to have it both ways and say that “We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone” meaning that anyone who is saved will produce good works while simultaneously being unable to agree with the necessary corollary that if you are not producing good works you must not have salvation faith. They dont like that corollary at all! Eventually these arguments are worn down and they get to their last attempt at holding it all together. You see, this last desperate attempt usually comes after it is reiterated by them that salvation is by grace through faith alone, and that our works have no part in salvation. They usually toss out some Romans stuff and Eph 2:8-9 at this point. Then the whole topic of James 2 comes up by way of a Catholic - you know the verses you never hear in a sermon - “You see that a man is justified by works and not faith alone”; “just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith if it is not accompanied by works is dead”; and lastly “If a man says he has faith but has not works will that faith save him?”. When confronted with those passages that even they simply cannot ignore, the OSASers usually focus on the quality of faith being discussed and rationalize that James is merely addressing those who merely claim to have faith, but really have a dead faith that does not produce works - you know, false Christians. Then, sensing an opportunity to actually make sense of their theology and James’ clear rejection of it, they extrapolate that those individuals who fall into unrepentant sin, apostosy etc were “never truly saved to begin with” - they had a “dead faith”. Aterall, what other possible explanation is there??? That they are saved anyhow??? :bigyikes:
What direction did the discussion take in seminary school?
Blessings!
Well that is an interesting hypothetical conversation. Never had it. Where do you have these conversations?
The conversations about those who are lapsed usually involve a discussion of the circumstances or reasons for no longer attending church. If the information exists. The verses you never hear in a sermon…thats rich.
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LionHeart777
Guest
If the early Church believed in OSAS, surely we would find it in their writings no? Or maybe, just maybe, somebody might not be interpreting Scripture correctly.
p.s. by “early Church” I mean those who were set up in leadership roles by the Apostles or the one’s who those set up set up themselves, and on down the line.
p.s. by “early Church” I mean those who were set up in leadership roles by the Apostles or the one’s who those set up set up themselves, and on down the line.
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brb2
Guest
Yes, made shipwreck of their FAITH … Apostates of the Faith ! Whose branches in Christ, God removed from the tree of life. They were JUDGED by God … and delivered to satan the Holy Spirit withdrawn from them]. Now, they will either accept their judgment and repent … or cast their lots with satan for eternity.
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Philthy
Guest
Interesting rant. It appears you are unfamiliar with the concept of a logical corollary. It is merely a way of restating the facts of a statement. It often adds a degree of clarity . For example I could say, “Every time Tim is upset by a post he goes on a rant.” A necessary corollary is “If Tim does not go on a rant, he is not upset by a post.” They are equivalent statements. The same is true of the following statements: “We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone (ie lacks good works)” and the statement, “If a faith is alone (ie, lacks good works) then we are not saved by it.” Again, they are logical equivalents. If you dont like the second statement, you need to revise the first one rather than blaming others for pointing out the hypocrisy.
You’re arguing over semantics? What would like to call someone who pretends to be a Christian but is not? A non-believer? How does that distinguish them from those who dont pretend to be Christian? Seems silly to me. Would “pseudo-Christian” be better?
And you make another one of your blatant errors here: only a non-believer can be separated …from God. No Tim - only someone who was “attached” to God can be “separated” from God. Non-believers are outside of God, separate from him;
Thats because making distinctions is irrelevant - there is no need to discuss it. It cant cause you to lose your salvation according to your theology, so who cares?
You are too funny! Just after your arguing over the term “false Christians” you pull out a verse that completely demolishes your position: FALSE PROPHET!!! What is that supposed to mean, Tim??? Could it possibly be someone who PRETENDS to be a prophet but isnt??? Why yes it does mean that! Sorta like a FALSE CHRISTIAN…
Now, on to your comments…I definitely understand the admonition: a claim to faith alone is nothing: good works are a necessary part of the Christian. But more is said than that Tim - you missed it in your bolding:
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Logical corollary? If you do not bear good fruit you are not a good tree. Bad trees get thrown into the fire…you know what that means I hope.
Fail to see it?? Uhh, that was my opening statement that you quoted silly! If you dont have good works, you dont have saving faith! You are too much…failed to see it - truly humorous.
Can we call it a “false profession” like a “false prophet” from a “false christian” or do we have to continue pretending that there is no such thing as a false Christian?
Do me a favor - could you develop your thoughts fully here. WHY does James bring up the issue of someone making such a claim? WHY does he introduce it into the context of "If a man says he has faith but has not works, will that faith SAVE HIM? It is a discussion about salvation, Tim. That’s the context. WHAT do we do with the information? HOW does it relate to our spiritual life/sanctification/salvation?
con’d
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brb2
Guest
Lets go two verses higher up 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with him; IF WE DENY HIM, he will ALSO DENY US;”What did Hymenaeus and Alexander reject? faith & good conscience or faith and repentance or the Gift of God; take your pick, but these are not Christians as you would like to make them.
Need proof? See 2 Timothy 2:14-18
No longer Christians, having denied Christ and forsaken their Saviour. Just as Judas, the Apostate, did. “Better if he had never been born”.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Interesting interpretation of something? Is an apostate a Christian that as become a non-Christian, despite that God says that is impossible?
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Philthy
Guest
When you are claiming to be infallible in your interpretations let us know, otherwise we will recognize this for what it is: another expression of your frustration cloaked as an indirect claim to actually having the “mind of Christ”. If you wish to claim you have the infallible mind of Christ, be a man and say so.
If you were to say that you received personal divine revelation on a particular topic I could respect that, but to continue to hint at it without definitively claiming it is pretty whimpy; inappropriate in an apologetics forum and…getting old.Maybe you should take a break.
Blessings!
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