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MarcoPolo
Guest
That is a good thing, but if you happen to weaken and cheat on your wife, it’s not a problem, no?
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Rightlydivide
Guest
The other side of this is the Catholic who comes to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. He has never been “good enough” to make it to heaven. Instead of trusting in the saving power of Jesus Christ, he has relied on his own works, ritual, and empty prayers. Once they experience salvation, they weep with joy and become powerful witnesses for the truth.
They understand and experience forgiveness and often shed the worldly lifestyle they used to live.
You have your experiences which you shared and I thought you would be ok with me sharing my observations and experiences.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
They would be consumed with guilt and confess to God. You mischaracterize and slander what you do not understand.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
Because the Bible tells us to Mr. Polo. Are you REALLY as a Catholic preaching to evangelicals and fundamentalists about NOMINAL Christian living?
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MarcoPolo
Guest
The pastor quoted in the OP and defended here says there is no consequence beyond this life for any sin committed by a Christian. Do you agree with Pastor Jeremiah?
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paul_c
Guest
Rightlydivide,
It is a fine thing when people understand and experience forgiveness and shed their worldly lifestyles. And some do experience this in the Protestant/Evangelical churches but it is far from unique to them. People have these conversion experiences within the Catholic Church as well. To the point where they are willing to give up the worldly life completely and live as Priests, nuns or consecrated brothers.
But just because you have had a conversion experience doesn’t mean you are destined for heaven. You’ve only taken the first step in the journey toward God, and unfortunately, many are led to believe that they are home and they stop striving for holiness. this is a great tragedy. To get to heaven, you must persevere in your path to holiness. You must cooperate with the graces given you
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You speak like you have the mind of God and as if you can fathom God’s incomprehensible Mercy. That was the same mistake Judas made in thinking that his sins were so great that not even God could forgive him. That lead to him taking it upon himself to take his own life and doubt that the Almighty God had the capacity to forgive a thing that he himself could not forgive. Of course Judas really inverted the relationship to make himself God in his weak human insights and mindset and therby set himself to suffer his own grossly limited human intellect and empathetic capacity. NO one can limit God to the confines of a human skull. God knows everyone’s heart and loves us untiringly even when we sin. He just won’t suffer those who do not love Him to face Hin for all eternity and why Hell is granted to those who choose it.
But Catholics are taught that God is ready to forgive us 70 times 7 times and will take us back in a heart beat no matter if we sin and fall away and come back again and again and again to sincerely retry to keep God’s commandments with a sincere heart set on repentance. Let’s face it some people are just undisciplined and fall in with the wrong crowd & the wrong examples and the wrong teachings and never learn how to “avoid the occasion of sin”. God is Just but God innately wanted ALL to Love Him and will never reject a person who is honestly trying his best to “get right” with God. Never discount God’s Mercy since He has told us that it wins out over His justice as long as the sinner also shows Mercy in his dealings. We are under a NT system of grace and mercy not under a system of Law (unless we opt to reject Christ - which is self condeming).
So drop the “Can’t” word since noting is impossible for God and the scriptures back it. If God can implant the Divine Seed in The Virgin and bring Himself directly and physically into the human experience then the tiniest seed’s of faith can be made to grow in even the most obstinate hearts when the temporal consequence of their sins bring them to their knees in humility. This is what anathema and excommunication is really all about - removing those openly sinful and unrepentant from the good graces of The Church and its Holy Sacraments so that the person might repent after suffering the whithering effects of sin.
Stick around - we’ll sort you out.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
This is precisely where the theory of OSAS structurally delaminates itself to unravel like a wet ball of string all over the crabgrass. There is ONLY one instance where a person who believes in OSAS can observe with certainty a person’s salvation but its NEVER in himself and only in OTHERS. That is when the OTHER person is an infant or under the age of reason child and lacks the rational facilities to sin against God from free assent. But that ONE example of a saved soul immediately vanishes in a vapor of smoke as soon as the child grows up and forms a consenting conscience and the ability to listen and reject or obey his inner conscience. ALL Christians would AGREE on the point that an baptised infant or child dieing for whatever reason before the age of reason will go to heaven. By definition “those who go to heaven” are “saved”. BUT if that child who was saved in his youth grows up to become an atheist or some devilish miscreant and never repents that person is going to hell – plain and simple. And HERE is the complete contradiction of the “once saved always saved” circular reasoning - that person WAS saved as a child but is UNSAVED as an adult. Therefor the concept is flat-out bogus since to be truly saved" one must be saved in all dimensions of time since in eternity there is not time. That is, to be “saved” in eternity salvation must be all of: a past state, a current state and a future state.
AND THIS is where Catholic theology SOARS since scripture DEFINITELY speaks to salvation as all 3 state - past, present and future. One must be repentant and baptised (normatively), one must be working out their faith in fear and trembling as the HS sanctifies the repentant sinner over their entire lives and one must be JUDGED saved by Almighty God and given the final crown of salvation in heaven BY HIM - not by self directed fiat. In fact it’s a sacrilege and arrogant to even think to judge for God. The OSAS people, although they are not consciously aware of it are trying to judge for themselves before God gets a word in. I can just here it now when a subscriber to OSAS is not doing too well on his day of judgement before God: "What do you mean I am an unrepentant sinner?? I AM SAVED if I SAY SO MYSELF- so let me in – its a done deal."
James
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Red-
You miss my point. Those who have the false assurance taught by people like the one quoted in the OP will not feel obligated to do any works. Oh, sure…they MIGHT throw a few bucks into the collection basket or what have you…but not because they think they have to DO anything. After all, they’re saved no matter what according to the false teaching that they have heard.
I do think you have hit upon the problem that I refer to as the “Protestant Treadmill” in your last paragraph, but those “Protestant works” are performed by those Protestants who understand that OSAS is a lie.
They are doing their “works” - serving, singing, sending packages to the poor in Honduras at Christmas, etc., - to show God, themselves, and everyone else in their congregation that they are persevering.
OSAS people don’t bother.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Nick-
I wonder if pastor’s say things like that to take the edge off of their pure OSAS stance. IOW, they know how their views sound to others, so they throw in some talk about behaving properly and not sinning and all that, but if pressed, I can’t help but wonder if OSAS and TULIP people won’t ultimately say that it really doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do because your salvation is ETCHED IN STONE.
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JustaServant
Guest
Your post reveals a lack of understanding of Catholic salvation. Salvation as an ongoing process and the novel OSAS are not equal in any respect. One system has been how God has dealt with man since Eden, the other is man-made. One has Biblical support, the other relies on reason and ‘experience’ to be genunine.
OSAS is a broken system. This is evidenced by simply opening your eyes to the people around you who believe it.
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RedBert
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Philthy
Guest
No, they never quite say that because they know how ridiculous it sounds. Instead they fall back on , “Well if someone were to do this and that sin, that simply means that they never were saved in the first place.” Which is not merely an avoidance of the issue, but also completely undermines their position on eternal security and is basically an admission that the means by which we are to judge(not actually our job!) salvation is NOT MERELY ON CONFESSING JESUS AS LORD, BUT ON HOW ONE LIVES THEIR LIFE…ie their good works and their avoidance of sin. Such a realization is far too close to the Catholic position for them to accept it directly even though everything they speak of necessitates those conclusions. They prefer to live in the ambiguous world of “If in fact you are saved (which we don’t actually know since future unknown sin may demonstrate that you are not) then you can’t be unsaved.” Its kinda silly really…
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Philthy
Guest
It is a problem according to Psalm 51 and a heart issue that requires repentance. Without repentance the only conclusion that one could reasonably draw is that the persons “heart” will be unclean (51:10); they could be cast from God’s presence and the “holy spirit could be withdrawn” (51:11) and the individual could be returned to the status of being “guilty” (51:14). It sounds to me like this person - except by true, heartfelt contrition - would no longer be in God’s favor. Thats what the Biblical response found in Psalm 51 is, and it sounds nothing like your theology or Jeremiah’s.
Blessings!
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Philthy
Guest
I have no problem with you sharing your experiences, and I largely agree with everything you said!
I would point out one small, area of disagreement though. The “Catholic” that you speak of who “has relied on his own works, ritual, and empty prayers” isn’t really a Catholic in the true sense of the word, is he? Certainly the Catholic Church doesnt teach that people who rely on works, ritual and empty prayer are saved. So what you are speaking of is a misinformed, uneducated, largely sinful, unsaved individual who mistakenly identifies himself as Catholic.
In my opinion, I do not see educated, fervent, practicing Catholics converting to Protestantism - it is almost always uneducated, lapsed, non-practicing Catholics who are “ripe picking” for Protestant communities. Virtually all of the practicing Protestant apologists that I know - who might qualify as “powerful witnesses” - are not converts from Catholicism. It is those educated, fervent, practicing Protestants who convert to Catholicism who contribute to the “powerful witnesses” for Catholicism. So there is definitely a disconnect there: many fervent Protestants - pastors and seminary trained folks - have converted to the Catholic Church while those who leave the Church for Protestantism are largely non-practicing, uninformed, lapsed Catholics.
Blessings!
L
LionHeart777
Guest
Randy,
Here is a confusing part which I’m not sure you if you were aware of…
OSAS doesn’t always mean the same thing to everyone holding it… but suppose it did for a moment.
then, not all OSAS people suscribe to TULIP Theology, but all TULIP Theologians would suscribe to OSAS (if OSAS = Perseverance of the Saints, which it always does not.)
I’m not sure but I don’t think pastor David is a Calvinist; maybe though. To better get an idea, there has been an ongoing debate between people in the camp that believe that a saint can’t be lost. On one end you have the “Free Grace” proponents and on the other you have the “Lordship Salvation” proponents. Interestingly, a Calvinist if pressed, would be obligated to say that “…it really doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do because your salvation is ETCHED IN STONE.” Although they would say that such a person was never saved who perseveres, for lack of a better word, in sin. In my experience, the Theology brought feelings of despair. True, I think there can be some who think they are heaven bound and NEVER were, but such a Theoligy, IMO, doesn’t hold up to Tradition AND can be refuted from Scripture (hence the existence of Arminians.)
Plithy, some good analysis–
I agree that it comes close to the Catholic position (in a way), BUT the kicker is the “never saved in the first place” issue- which, IMO, can lead one to holy living, but I also know feel that one of the fruits can be feelings of despair in better intentioned people or genuine converts.
Re; Free Grace vs. Lordship Theologies-
here is a quick read–but I think that there is more to it so all one need do is google-- also, I think that the two extremes also include a spectrum in the middle.
biblestudies.suite101.com/article.cfm/examining_the_lordship_vs_free_grace_debate
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RedBert
Guest
You had asked what if a saved person sinned?
Only a saved person would repent: why would an unsaved person care if they offended God?
an unsaved person’s viewpoint on sin ( even if they believe in the concept) if one of self righteousness.
I only sleep with people i love:
I never missed work with a hang over:
When I sell drugs, I gave a fair count.
or
Every one’s doing it.
It’s not against the law.
no one gets hurt.
A saved person sees sin as an offence to the righteousness and Holiness of God: and even though I will sin today , and sin tomorrow: I am sorry and know God already forgave me.
T
Timothy_Piper
Guest
Apples
- Christ has a purpose for ALL people, but focusing on the Christian.
- Purpose is fulfilled - brings them home regardless of the amount of fruit. - Peter; death and fruit bearing foretold by Jesus. Much fruit and die when old age
Oranges - Christ will chasten those that are disobedient, even to the point of death
- Sampson - eyes gauged out and put into chains to be as a beast of burden to grind wheat
- Paul indicates that one can loose all of their rewards; yet be saved = “little fruit Christian”
- Paul turns one over to Satan so flesh can be destroyed = death; yet the spirit saved - eternal life.
Sound logic does not combines the apples and oranges, then claim one proved their point and then call someone basically misguided & being like a blind guide…so be it; thank you for the blessings and may God give you the eyes of spiritual discernment.
Proverbs 19:25
Strike a scoffer and the naive may become shrewd, But reprove one who has understanding and he will gain knowledge.
Proverbs 18:1-2
1 He who separates himself seeks his own desire,
He quarrels against all sound wisdom.
2 A fool does delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
Proverbs 17
10 A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding
Than a hundred blows into a fool.
15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous,
Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.
20 He who has a crooked mind finds no good,
And he who is perverted in his language falls into evil.
I was once told by a great man of God that if one want to know the God of the Bible and serve Him, then read and understand the Psalms and Proverbs. They were right.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Good post and points. This is what I am trying to get across.
OSAS does indeed mean different things to different people. I was focusing in on what the philosophy means to Joe and Jane Pewwarmer, not to a preacher or Protestant theologion. If you look at the EFFECTS of the theology, you can see its flaws very clearly. That is why there is such a sharp disagreement between ‘antinomians’ and ‘legalists’ within Protestant denominations. If you look at the reasons for most Protestant church splits, you find many times, OSAS is at the root of the problems.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Hello RightlyDivide & ALL OTHERS READ:
Fresh air and bless you
I am going out on a limb here since I do not know you, but based on that pin-point accuracy on the above statement; I am assuming you believe OSAS and that ONLY because of faithfulness and obedience, that God has blessed you with the assurance of your salvation, which I believe only comes to those who are truly being faithful and obedient. Not based on the false gospel of “Easy Believism”.
I will also climb the limb and say you believe in Election, but, if like me, had difficulty at first in accepting it, but once you could not get past that indeed it is all over the Bible, then you embraced it and it had the total opposite effect on your love, gratitude and motivation to share the love of God as the human perspective presumes, which the skeptics that embrace “why should we preach” or “why then even pray”. In other words, it opened your eyes still further in the understanding of Hos love for you, strengthened your desire to share Him with other, and reached a higher level of gratitude for your salvation and that of others and in addition made you more aware of just what Jesus actually and really did for you.
Correct me if I am wrong on any of this and add comment as you please for all to see and hopefully understand.
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