Pastor David Jeremiah's sermon on OSAS

[MarcoPolo]

First a transcript, and I’ll follow up with comment. This is from his sermon from 12/15/09.*Listen to me, the very moment we believe the judgement for our sins became a thing of the past. We will not ever be judged for our sins if we’re Christians. You say well does that mean I can sin and no penalty? No. I’m not saying you won’t have trouble if you sin. God will penalize you in this life, but you will never stand before God again to give an account for your sin. He paid every payment on your sin debt and it’s once and for all paid. You will never stand at the great white throne judgment if you’re a Christian. That’s where all unbelievers will be. You don’t have anything to worry about if you’re a Christian. You say what about the sins I committed after I got saved? Well let me ask you a question, how many of your sins did you commit after Jesus died for you? How many? All of your sins were future when Jesus died. Did He forgive just certain ones of them up to a point? No He forgave them all. He paid the penalty for all your sin. You say well what about when I sinned as a Christian? That’s a relationship issue. You need to go to your Father and say Father I’m sorry and get things right with Him, but it doesn’t have anything to do with your position before God. You are saved and you will never see judgment. You say Pastor, is that in the Bible? Yeah, it’s in the Bible. Romans 8:1. There is therefore, what? Now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. When is there no condemnation? In the future? No. Now. There is no condemnation now. If you’re a Christian, you are no longer condemned. And one day you will go to heaven and you’ll spend eternity with the Lord. You will go to the judgment seat of Christ and you will be judged for the things done in your flesh, but that’s about the loss of rewards, that’s not about the penalty of hell. If you’re a Christian your sins are paid for in full. And that’s why John says God’s love casts out any fear of torment and any fear of judgment. He loved you so much He took that all away. Hallelujah. Ha. It’s gone. And John 5:24 put it this way. Most assuredly I say to you he who hears my word and believes in me who sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. Do you get all the tenses there? You shall not come to judgment because you have already passed from death into life. *

 

[MarcoPolo]

• OSAS has been hashed here a lot, I think it easily fails the test of Scripture (let alone Tradition) so I want to focus on some other observations.
• He said “God will penalize you in this life” for your sins. Is this a common belief in Protestantism that you converts or lurking Protestants can affirm? For a Christian, there is temporal punishment for sin imposed by God? What is an example of this?
• Are Protestants who a) share Pastor Jeremiah’s beliefs and, b) fight against Catholic teaching, only doing so to help that Catholic prevent “loss of rewards”? After all, since the Catholic believes in Christ, and since Pastor Jeremiah says anyone who believes in Christ goes to heaven regardless of subsequent sin, there isn’t any reason to try to talk the Catholic out of sacraments, or penance, or Church hierarchy, etc… beyond “level” of reward, right?

 

[Filioque]

How wonderful for Pastor David. It would be even nicer if that was what Jesus and His Apostles taught.

 

[chessmane4e5]

You say well does that mean I can sin and no penalty? No. I’m not saying you won’t have trouble if you sin. God will penalize you in this life, but you will never stand before God again to give an account for your sin.

Great. According to him, I can go and commit any sin I want, so long as I believe in Christ. What do I care if I am penalized in this life, it is going to end soon anyway, plus I have eternal life waiting for me. WooHoo let the party begin.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but everything he is saying is so false that I can’t even believe he said it.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Great. According to him, I can go and commit any sin I want, so long as I believe in Christ. What do I care if I am penalized in this life, it is going to end soon anyway, plus I have eternal life waiting for me. WooHoo let the party begin.

What is interesting about your comment here is this: Pastor David says you shouldn’t go on sinning because after all, you are a child of God and aren’t supposed to (plus you will get temporal punishment—whatever that means to him). But in practice, his theology would make a person have no fear or eternal reason to be concerned for any sin, great or small, committed a few times or thousands…

 

[edjco]

I’m sure Pastor David tells his flock that there is no need for them to tithe, either, right?
I mean, if they are already saved, and that salvation is permanent, then why would they possibly have to tithe and support his ministry?

 

[Filioque]

What is interesting about your comment here is this: Pastor David says you shouldn’t go on sinning because after all, you are a child of God and aren’t supposed to (plus you will get temporal punishment—whatever that means to him). But in practice, his theology would make a person have no fear or eternal reason to be concerned for any sin, great or small, committed a few times or thousands…

Then again there are those in the OSAS camp who narrow down the truly saved as being those who are among the elect. In some groups, the signs of one’s election are good health and financial fortune. So it is possible among some to claim that even if you accepted Jesus, your acceptance was not genuine as evidenced by one’s ill health or lower economic status. How fun to be able to just read what you want out of the Scriptures, and conform them to your own will, rather than conform yourself to God’s will and follow the successors of the Apostles, even when they teach things that require that we subject ourselves to ideas we don’t like, or are not easy.

 

[kristanl]

• OSAS has been hashed here a lot, I think it easily fails the test of Scripture (let alone Tradition) so I want to focus on some other observations.
• He said “God will penalize you in this life” for your sins. Is this a common belief in Protestantism that you converts or lurking Protestants can affirm? For a Christian, there is temporal punishment for sin imposed by God? What is an example of this?
• Are Protestants who a) share Pastor Jeremiah’s beliefs and, b) fight against Catholic teaching, only doing so to help that Catholic prevent “loss of rewards”? After all, since the Catholic believes in Christ, and since Pastor Jeremiah says anyone who believes in Christ goes to heaven regardless of subsequent sin, there isn’t any reason to try to talk the Catholic out of sacraments, or penance, or Church hierarchy, etc… beyond “level” of reward, right?

Protestants who believe this usually dont believe there is any hierarchy or sacraments. They say the Jesus died on the cross and the blood he shed for us forgave all of our sins. There are supposedly different types of OSAS extremists. This pastor says all Christians, while some Pastors will be specific to their church, their religion (i.e. Souther Baptist) when talking about who will be in heaven and not judged.
The interesting part when talking to OSAS people, is that the people who continue to commit sins and do terrible things usually werent saved in the first place. However, how do THEY know that, and according to this Pastor, if you a simply a Christian you will be in heaven.
I would like to know his definition of a Christian as well.

 

[BrianH]

Everyone has their own experiences I suppose. But the notion that OSAS Baptists and the sort lead lives more prone to sin or more likely to sin is comical. But then again it may just be the people I know. I know they say the same things about you guys. That
Catholics get to do whatever they want and then go to confession,…

 

[Filioque]

Brian’s comments remind me of a joke a Baptist minister I know tells. “How do you tell a Methodist from a Baptist in a Liquor Store?” The Methodist will say hello to you and the Baptist will duck to try and avoid being seen."

Yup Brian there are those who think that the confessional is a magic box, and one does not have to be sorry for their sins. Unfortunatly for Catholics who know their faith, being sorry for our sins, and a firm desire to improve our lives, and not to sin again, are on our part needed for the sacrament to be effective. Presuming that we can just go to confession and continue to sin is not only something that would potentially invalidate the Sacrament, but it would be sinful in itself. Too bad there are Catholics and Non-Catholics who don’t understand the real story.

 

[MarcoPolo]

That Catholics get to do whatever they want and then go to confession,…

But it’s so much easier to not have to do even that, isn’t it?

p.s. Filoque brings up a great point that the sacrament of Confession requires firm purpose of amendment. It takes sin seriously. Pastor Jeremiah has the “past-present-future” sins all taken care of and it’s a nice gesture to tell God your sorry if you do sin, but it ultimately wouldn’t matter one way or the other if you did.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The interesting part when talking to OSAS people, is that the people who continue to commit sins and do terrible things usually werent saved in the first place. However, how do THEY know that, and according to this Pastor, if you a simply a Christian you will be in heaven.

This one has always vexed me. Pastor Jeremiah in that sermon also talked about how he knows he’s going to heaven. But then you bring up the point you made here…

I find the whole “they were never saved to begin with” especially peculiar to those who claim they have assurance of salvation. After all, there are those who claim “I am assured of salvation” who then fall away, and his remaining brethren will say “he was never saved to begin with.” And at the same time, they then still claim to be assured of salvation, just like the first guy used to do!

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Everyone has their own experiences I suppose. But the notion that OSAS Baptists and the sort lead lives more prone to sin or more likely to sin is comical. But then again it may just be the people I know. I know they say the same things about you guys. That
Catholics get to do whatever they want and then go to confession,…

That’s called presumption (“God will forgive me anyway, so I’ll just commit this sin”), and it’s a mortal sin. Contrition (sorrow for sin) is a requirement for Confession.

 

[06convert]

So he quoted the Gospel of John and Paul’s letter to the Romans as proof of what he was saying. A couple books written by a couple of guys that obviously lived contrary to everything the Pastor just said.

Ok Pastor. Lets go to that verse in John 5:24. You’re right it does say:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

But God didn’t say stop reading and take this out of context! Keep reading!

25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

Ready for the good part?

29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

You come to a similar conclusion if you keep reading in Pauls letter to the Romans.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is kind of confusing to me. he says that Jesus died for the future sins. so, does that mean that if we sin, we dont have to worry about it because these sins have already been forgiven? is it what he is saying? and if we sin again, no problem, they have been forgiven already?

we know that these sermons are all based in one Verse of the Bible any way. He needs to be a student of the CC.

 

[regression]

Now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. When is there no condemnation? In the future? No. Now. There is no condemnation now. If you’re a Christian, you are no longer condemned. And one day you will go to heaven and you’ll spend eternity with the Lord. You will go to the judgment seat of Christ and you will be judged for the things done in your flesh, but that’s about the loss of rewards, that’s not about the penalty of hell.

OK, I’m confused. If you are a Christian, one day you will go to heaven and possibly loose some rewards, but still be in heaven? Maybe I am reading it wrong but it sounds like if you are a Christian you will go to heaven, be judged and depending on what you did in this life, you might loose some rewards, but not end up in hell???

Maybe I am just reading it incorrectly.

 

[MarcoPolo]

This is kind of confusing to me. he says that Jesus died for the future sins. so, does that mean that if we sin, we dont have to worry about it because these sins have already been forgiven? is it what he is saying? and if we sin again, no problem, they have been forgiven already?

That’s how I understood the words he said.

 

[MarcoPolo]

OK, I’m confused. If you are a Christian, one day you will go to heaven and possibly loose some rewards, but still be in heaven? Maybe I am reading it wrong but it sounds like if you are a Christian you will go to heaven, be judged and depending on what you did in this life, you might loose some rewards, but not end up in hell???

Maybe I am just reading it incorrectly.

That’s one of the things I was hoping someone could shed light on. He does believe there is punishment for sin but only while we’re still in the flesh. And he says God is the one who effects this punishment. I wonder what kind of punishment God inflicts for sin here on earth that he had in mind.

He also seems to believe there are degrees of reward in heaven based on our works. But you are correct, he says no work or sin can affect our salvation once we’ve accepted His work on the Cross. His whole sermon was living without fear—including fear of sinning.

 

[regression]

This is kind of confusing to me. he says that Jesus died for the future sins. so, does that mean that if we sin, we dont have to worry about it because these sins have already been forgiven? is it what he is saying? and if we sin again, no problem, they have been forgiven already?

we know that these sermons are all based in one Verse of the Bible any way. He needs to be a student of the CC.

I think what he is saying is something bad will happen to us in this life if we sin, but that is it. We will still go straight to heaven when we die and not have to worry about it… Kind of sounds like karma to me.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I think what he is saying is something bad will happen to us in this life if we sin, but that is it. We will still go straight to heaven when we die and not have to worry about it… Kind of sounds like karma to me.

The punishment is really nothing to worry about. It’s just temporal. He would encourage you not to go sinning away, but what is the real consequence if you did? You’re still going to go to heaven.