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ByzCathCantor
Guest
What? Is this really the position of the Russian Orthodox Church?
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
Sigh…
Abbot Nicholas of HRM said that when he was in Romania, he found out that The Romanian Catholic Church is disliked (wow, big suprise!) because they were accused of trying to steal a Romanian Orthodox Church or Monastery.
We pray for the Pope in his efforts, along with Patriarch Kirill, that he will work fairly with the Holy Father.:byzsoc:
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
If one knows the history of the Uniate Church in the Ukraine in the 20th Century, where Stalin tried to erase it, killing their priests and turning their churches, monestaries and schools over the the Russian Orthodox Churce (to appease and reward them for their cooperation in WWII) and forcing Uniat Catholics to attend either Ukrainian or Russian Orthodox churches, one cannot blame the population of the Western Ukraine in demanding and forcing the return of their religious property after the demise of the USSR.
To find that the head of the Russian Orthodox resists meeting the Pope over the issue of real estate is absolutly atrocious and all but unforgivable for the head of any religion or sect! May G*d forgive him and have mercy on him!.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
Thank you, George Stegmeir.
I agree with your comment 100%.
Considering what was done to Catholics in Ukraine, to the great
real estate and financial benefit of the R.O.C.,
this refusal IS atrocious.
I agree with your comment 100%.
Considering what was done to Catholics in Ukraine, to the great
real estate and financial benefit of the R.O.C.,
this refusal IS atrocious.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
I’m an Eastern Rite Catholic, of Rusyn descent, so I know this history all too well. But that’s the point - it is rather unbelieveable that Patriarch Kirill (who I had grown to admire based on other traits, namely, his tendency to speak independently in matters of state and in the best interests of his Church) would seriously claim that it is the Catholics who are stealing properties.
My direct question - is this really the position of the Russian Orthodox Church? or is this a negotiating tactic? And I do realize that Patriarch Kirill’s frustration may be more directed at the Ukrainians, but that does not rationalize this argument. Are the Ukrainians recovering properties in an unjudicial fashion?
It was only in 1990 that the Ruthenian Mother Church in Uzhgorod was returned to the Ruthenian Catholic faithful, and not without some lingering debate. But that was a just result. I cannot imagine that the UGCC would be moving to claim properties that were historically Orthodox. Is that the assertion here?
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jwinch2
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So there are no preconditions, but there are conditions which must be met? 
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jwinch2
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It sounds like a red herring to me, but I am far from truly informed on this issue.
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Nine_Two
Guest
My reading is that he wants four party talks regarding Church property, something which he seems to blame on the Vatican.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
You may well be right, but this is disappointing …
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CDB1718
Guest
Oh yes, this is the long-standing position of Patriarch Kirill and the Russian Orthodox.
"The Patriarch of Moscow said that in Ukraine, ‘as the result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in 1980-s-1990-s, the Orthodox believers lost their church buildings and still feel that their rights have been infringed’ and that this question was discussed in the course of the contacts with the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church.
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/45373/
Why do you think the Ukrainian patriarchate is such a big issue? It’s the Russians who oppose it. And the relations are rocky on every other front, too. The Ukrainians–Catholic and Orthodox–view him as a phylitistic stooge for Putin. Here are some representative opinions.
risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/authors_columns/karapinka_column/36824/
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/church_state_relations/45191/
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/uapc/42048/
risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/analytic/31083/
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/uoc_kp/36319/
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jwinch2
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Interesting. I will definitely take a look at those links. I was unaware the Ukrainian Orthodox had such strained relations with the Russian Orthodox. Given the history of the two countries and the manner in which the Russian Orthodox Church cooperated with the Soviet government, I guess this is not surprising. I knew the UGCC and RO did for sure, but it hadn’t really crossed my mind that the Orthodox would be bickering among themselves.
I am not trying to derail the thread here, but I cannot help but think that this is what happens when you do not have a final authority on earth such as the Pope. We are fallen, after all, and holding grudges, scheming for advantage, and evening scores is what we as sinners tend to do.
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Hesychios
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First of all I think someone should point out to you that the U word is not allowed here, in any context. I am not allowed to use it and neither are you.
Secondly, one seldom gets the complete story about events there, and there is plenty of disappointment and heartache to go around. Unfortunately there has been a bit of thuggery, all sides are undoubtedly guilty but I think that the Patriarch has it right in declaring that a four way commission should meet on it.
In other words, if a town has five ancestral parish temples and the population is 20% Orthodox, I don’t see why they should be shut out of all five. The same is true vice versa … if a town has five temples and the population is 20% Greek Catholic one of those should be guaranteed to the Greek Catholics, God bless 'em!
Unfortunately, all too often it has been a ‘winner take all’ kind of thing, and people are hurt. The way it has been going, the dispossessed group can even have a hard time securing a building permit (depending on who might control that sort of thing).
Like I said, I think all parties are guilty of this to some extent and there is plenty of blame to go around. A commission that actually meets and works at resolving these things is not too much to ask. If nothing else it will help build a climate of trust and (one would hope) mutual respect.
As for your comment about ‘appeasement’, it is a clear sign that you have much more to learn about the situation. The Orthodox church was not ‘appeased’ about anything. There was no quid pro quo, the Orthodox church was completely under the thumb of the Stalinist communist government, and the ultimate goal was to close all churches.
Many Orthodox call the church of that time ‘Sergian’ after the first leader of the church after the death of patriarch Tikhon. It has connotations much like ‘Quisling’ and it is the source of great disappointment and sadness for Orthodox Christians.
The Polish communist party did the same in Poland under Stalin’s influence, except there it was Orthodox who gave up their churches to the Roman Catholics. Even the Greek Catholics lost their churches to the Roman Catholics under the communists, the cathedral at Chelm has yet to be returned, and probably never will be.
No sane person would ever claim that the Polish communist party was giving those parishes to the Roman Catholic church as some kind of payback or reward. The church in Poland was attacked at every turn, much like the Orthodox were attacked in Russia (except that Cardinal Wyszynski and his brother bishops were not executed).
Why do totalitarian governments do this? Probably because they like to keep all the ‘enemies of the people’ in a nice little box where they can be watched together.
The Pope can wait.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The problem is that politically and ecclesiastically, Russia believe Ukraine is hers. I’m pretty sure the Ukrainians can resolve the issue if a parish is Orthodox or Catholic by themselves just fine. Russia should just stop poking their nose in Ukraine and let the Ukrainians be, both Catholics and Orthodox.
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Splagchnizomai
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Prayers for a resolution to this issue and for unity of all Christians. :byzsoc:
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mariyka
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Nine_Two
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The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in much the same sense that the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is Catholic. This is not “bickering among themselves”.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Excellent post. The Patriarch is correct in wanting a four-party commission. He blamed the UGCC for nothing in that story.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Ukrainians like to tell themselves this, but the Russians I’ve talked to don’t seem to think so.
What the Russians do think is that the territory of the Ukraine is part of the Russian Patriarchy. This is a different matter.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
So, the USSR controlled the Ukraine.
The USSR was a churchless state, in which religion was to be completely suppressed.
But all churches were forced to become Russian Orthodox churches.
Now, the Ukraine is a liberated, sovereign nation.
Properties formerly claimed by the USSR and given to the ROC are now being returned.
Does it not make sense that they would be returned to either Ukrainian Orthodox or Ukrainian Greek Catholics?
We Catholics are sticklers when it comes to canonical churches. Were there native Russian Orthodox in the Ukraine before the Communist regime? Or were there simply Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholics, both suppressed under this regime? If the latter, what would be the concern of the ROC, as there would be no canonical ROC laity in the Ukraine needing protection of their Church?
And what is the position of the Ukrainian government? Is this not a sovereign state?
[BTW - the Ukrainian government doesn’t recognize the Rusyns as a true ethnic minority, so I’m not expecting miracles to come from that end.]
Not trying to be critical (except perhaps with my very last point) or to take sides - just trying to figure out exactly what is going on here …
… and I openly admit I may not understand all of the history here (I know much more of the plight of the Ruthenians than the Ukrainians).
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