Patriarch Kirill says he won't meet the pope. Blames UGCC

[ConstantineTG]

Ukrainians like to tell themselves this, but the Russians I’ve talked to don’t seem to think so.

Yes, there are sympathizers to Russia even in Ukraine itself. The country may very well be split in the middle.

Take note that many Ukrainians are anti-Russia. Just think back on Holodomor, there need not be any other reason. The Canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Canada is very anti-Russia as well, even though they are in communion with ROC. I heard they even refused to concelebrate with the OCA because the priest was from Russia.

What the Russians do think is that the territory of the Ukraine is part of the Russian Patriarchy. This is a different matter.

When Christian Ukraine was overtaken by barbarians, there was a question where the royal family moved to. Russians believed it was Moscow, and the Ukrainians believe it is in Galicia. At this point its best for them to just acknowledge each other’s independence. Canada and the US both came from Britain, one was loyal to the throne and the other wasn’t. But today its an issue.

So, the USSR controlled the Ukraine.
The USSR was a churchless state, in which religion was to be completely suppressed.
But all churches were forced to become Russian Orthodox churches.
Now, the Ukraine is a liberated, sovereign nation.
Properties formerly claimed by the USSR and given to the ROC are now being returned.
Does it not make sense that they would be returned to either Ukrainian Orthodox or Ukrainian Greek Catholics?

Problem is that they say they didn’t have a hand in the Communist takeover and that their possession of the property is legit.

We Catholics are sticklers when it comes to canonical churches. Were there native Russian Orthodox in the Ukraine before the Communist regime? Or were there simply Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholics, both suppressed under this regime? If the latter, what would be the concern of the ROC, as there would be no canonical ROC laity in the Ukraine needing protection of their Church?

Well, today there are given the time that the area was part of the USSR. Its not like they expelled Russians after independence. And what is their proof one person is not Ukrainian? Ukraine as a nation didn’t exist for several centuries until the fall of the USSR.

And what is the position of the Ukrainian government? Is this not a sovereign state?
[BTW - the Ukrainian government doesn’t recognize the Rusyns as a true ethnic minority, so I’m not expecting miracles to come from that end.]

There are sympathizers to Russia. There is talk about reuniting with Russia. I heard the present government is pro-Russia.

Not trying to be critical (except perhaps with my very last point) or to take sides - just trying to figure out exactly what is going on here …

… and I openly admit I may not understand all of the history here (I know much more of the plight of the Ruthenians than the Ukrainians).

Its complicated to say the least. I’m glad I do get some quick lessons in history from our clergy, even from our bishop.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Its complicated to say the least. I’m glad I do get some quick lessons in history from our clergy, even from our bishop.

Indeed complicated, but your responses have given me something to think about in further detail - many thanks!

I am an early fan of His Beatitude Sviatoslav, and he strikes me as an intelligent, charismatic and compassionate leader. I hope he can and is willing to help navigate through this successfully and amicably, for the good of all the faithful involved and for the good of Christ’s Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Indeed complicated, but your responses have given me something to think about in further detail - many thanks!

I am an early fan of His Beatitude Sviatoslav, and he strikes me as an intelligent, charismatic and compassionate leader. I hope he can and is willing to help navigate through this successfully and amicably, for the good of all the faithful involved and for the good of Christ’s Church.

Its an uphill climb, a very steep one. And the ROC is using this meeting with the Pope to hold the UGCC hostage.

 

[jwinch2]

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in much the same sense that the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is Catholic. This is not “bickering among themselves”.

So you are disputing the legitimacy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church or suggesting it is a front for the government? As for the bickering comment, that is pretty much how it comes across.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Its an uphill climb, a very steep one. And the ROC is using this meeting with the Pope to hold the UGCC hostage.

Hostage? In what way(s)? To what end? Is this somehow an effort to weaken the UGCC? I’m interested in your views …

 

[CDB1718]

This is an excerpt from an article on our church’s website. stsophiaukrainian.cc/resources/ugcchistory/

The war on religion was the ideology of the Communist regime and no effort was spared. Church buildings were ruined, burnt down, profaned; priests and faithful, Orthodox, Catholic and representatives of other religions were shot, arrested and deported to the Siberian gulag; church communities were persecuted, confined to underground activities or entirely destroyed. Both the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church at the beginning of the 1930s and the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in 1946 in Halychyna and in 1949 in Transcarpathia were liquidated. The Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churches survived in only a handful of carefully monitored churches.

Even the activities of the Russian Orthodox Church (which functioned as a state church) were limited and it furthermore suffered from infiltration by Soviet security structures. There was a progressive spiritual vacuum and a deepening demoralization of society.

With the crisis of Soviet power in the 1980s, the suppression of churches ceased. The formerly forbidden Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church emerged from the underground and communities of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church were created in 1989. The declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991 created a new context for the activities of all the churches in this territory. Thus, official religious freedom in Ukraine opened the way for religious pluralism.

There are three major Orthodox jurisdictions in Ukraine today:
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has more than 9049 communities, the majority of which function in the central and northeastern parts of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) has more than 2781 communities, of which approximately one third function in the central and more than 10% in the southeastern parts of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) has 1015 communities, of which more than 80% function in eastern Ukraine.
There are two Catholic Churches represented in Ukraine today:

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (UGCC) has more than 3317 communities, the majority of which function in western Ukraine.
The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has more than 807 communities, most of which function in the central regions.
The Armenian Apostolic Church represents the “pre-Chalcedonian” Churches in Ukraine.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hostage? In what way(s)? To what end? Is this somehow an effort to weaken the UGCC? I’m interested in your views …

For one thing the UGCC has been asking Rome to elevate the Church to a Patriarchate. Rome has relented because Russia has been threatening to to stop talks with the Vatican. But I would like to ask, “what talks?” Nothing has happened so far and Russia wouldn’t even meet with the Pope. Everything is just a promise that something will happen if Russia gets her way.

A Patriarchate in Ukraine has both ecclesiastical and political implications.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

This is an excerpt from an article on our church’s website. stsophiaukrainian.cc/resources/ugcchistory/

My friend, this was a nice summary - yet another treat from your parish website!

I was surprised, however, to see no mention of the Ruthenian Church in the recap at the bottom. Surely a much smaller set of communities by comparison to all the rest, but the Mother Church of your Ruthenian cousins is in fact in the Ukraine …

 

[ByzCathCantor]

For one thing the UGCC has been asking Rome to elevate the Church to a Patriarchate. Rome has relented because Russia has been threatening to to stop talks with the Vatican. But I would like to ask, “what talks?” Nothing has happened so far and Russia wouldn’t even meet with the Pope. Everything is just a promise that something will happen if Russia gets her way.

A Patriarchate in Ukraine has both ecclesiastical and political implications.

That I can certainly understand, although it goes to the very core of a related matter in the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue.

The UGCC is a global Church, which is “headquartered” in its nation of origin. To establish this as a Patriarchial Church should be absolutely meaningless to the Orthodox, unless of course they assume the Eastern Churches would “surrender” and become Orthodox in a reunion of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Am I missing something, perhaps (yet again)?

Thanks for your patience. I would like to be an informed supporter of my dear UGCC friends and Eastern Catholic brethren.

 

[Nine_Two]

Take note that many Ukrainians are anti-Russia. Just think back on Holodomor, there need not be any other reason. The Canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Canada is very anti-Russia as well, even though they are in communion with ROC. I heard they even refused to concelebrate with the OCA because the priest was from Russia.

I’m quite aware. I once had a lovely discussion with a former OCA priest (he was still an Orthodox priest when I spoke with him, just not OCA) who happened to be Ukrainian, He said he couldn’t stand Russians.

When Christian Ukraine was overtaken by barbarians, there was a question where the royal family moved to. Russians believed it was Moscow, and the Ukrainians believe it is in Galicia. At this point its best for them to just acknowledge each other’s independence. Canada and the US both came from Britain, one was loyal to the throne and the other wasn’t. But today its an issue.

I agree, which means the four party talks that the Patriarch has proposed.

Problem is that they say they didn’t have a hand in the Communist takeover and that their possession of the property is legit.

Hence the reason for talks.
The fact is for some of those properties it isn’t the first time they’ve been reposesed, and sadly probably won’t be the last. Hesychios is completely correct. The churches should sit down together and redistribute them based on population. If one of the sides has a particular attachment to a particular property that the others don’t, they should get that. But a pre-communist status quo is impossible to restore.

 

[CDB1718]

My friend, this was a nice summary - yet another treat from your parish website!

I was surprised, however, to see no mention of the Ruthenian Church in the recap at the bottom. Surely a much smaller set of communities by comparison to all the rest, but the Mother Church of your Ruthenian cousins is in fact in the Ukraine …

They were already Americans by then! In Ukraine, they are Ukrainian Catholics, not Ruthenians. Ruthenians as a church are only here in the US.

You bring up a good point. I’m working on an explanation of the wonders of Ukraine and why it is important. I’ll include the Ruthenians in that. This is the only reference I remember making to the Ruthenians.

stsophiaukrainian.cc/resources/jerusalemtotexas/

As Eastern Catholics have entered the diaspora, forced out of their traditional homelands by political, secular, and in some places religious tensions, they’ve taken their faith with them. For the people of Kyivan-Rus, those emigrations occurred in four distinct waves. The first wave was primarily peasants from the Transcarpathian Mountains who moved to the Coal Belt area of the United States and Canada looking for economic prosperity. The next wave was a more educated group of Transcarpathians who were fleeing Communism between WWI and WWII. The third wave came after World War II when President Truman allowed tens of thousands of Ukrainians to settle in the United States as refugees. It was a small wave of people in comparison, but these people typically had higher levels of education and were able to establish stronger community networks once they arrived. The fourth wave of Ukrainian immigration is ongoing, occurring after the fall of the Soviet Union. Among those parishioners at St. Sophia’s who have Ukrainian heritage, about half are the children or grandchildren of immigrants in the early waves and about half are themselves recent immigrants in the fourth wave. The rest of the parish reflects the standard American melting pot of diversity. Each story and journey is as unique as the person who tells it, with our love for Christ uniting us.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

They were already Americans by then! In Ukraine, they are Ukrainian Catholics, not Ruthenians. Ruthenians as a church are only here in the US.

The Eparchy of Mukachevo is part of the UGCC?

 

[CDB1718]

The Eparchy of Mukachevo is part of the UGCC?

Mukachevo only became Ukrainian in the 1940s. It is traditionally Hungarian and Czechoslovakian.

It is within the bounds of Ukraine today and could be legitimately included among the list of modern populations as you suggested. I’ll work on that!

 

[dvdjs]

Excellent post. The Patriarch is correct in wanting a four-party commission. He blamed the UGCC for nothing in that story.

If you were to dig back into the earlier work of the quadripartite commission you would have better sense of who is being blamed for what.

 

[dvdjs]

The fact is for some of those properties it isn’t the first time they’ve been reposesed, and sadly probably won’t be the last. Hesychios is completely correct. The churches should sit down together and redistribute them based on population. If one of the sides has a particular attachment to a particular property that the others don’t, they should get that. But a pre-communist status quo is impossible to restore.

Property ownership is a matter of right and of law. Not a matter of popular opinion or demographics. No outside group or groups can legitimately decide to give away another group’s property. The idea is ludicrous. This was the fundamental flaw in the operation of the quadripartite commission, which is why the UGCC opted out.

 

[dvdjs]

Secondly, one seldom gets the complete story about events there…

Very true and very apt.

I think that the comments on the Poles are not just way off topic, but totally miss, or even cover up the point.

In Galicia, Zakarpatskaya, and Prjasheshchina, we not talking simply about reallocating properties according to the local demographics, as the Communists may have thought to be a good thing to do, we are talking about the violent liquidation of the Greek Catholic Churches and the handing over of their property to a group who had essentially zero representation in the local community before the property seizure and forced conversions.

The difference in not subtle.

You might also help complete the story about Chelm by pointing out the Czar undertook the forced liquidation of the Greek Catholic church there in 1875, and that following the liberalization in the early 1900’s that allowed some religious choice (not Greek Catholic of course) ~40% of the Orthodox there converted to Roman Catholicism. And that is why there were so many RCs and no GCs there.

 

[Hesychios]

For one thing the UGCC has been asking Rome to elevate the Church to a Patriarchate …

This is rather tiresome.

If the Pope is not recognizing a patriarch for some reason he should just say so. No Pope has publicly stated that he is doing this because of the Russians, or for any other reason. So far all we have is this ‘Urban Legend’.

That is how the Vatican works, it is content to let the people think what they will because it and direct their ire elsewhere.

So, are you in favor of a four party commission as suggested or not?

 

[Ubenedictus]

I dont really know much about this, but are we stalling talks bcos of property dispute? I just dont get it. Is it really bad to make a new patriachate in Ukraine? These churches seem attached to their property, is there hope that anyone will let go? Lastly what is the pope role in this property…thing? It seem the rome-russia dicussions are the ones suffering this property…thing. Both churches will claim they have a legit right to the property, i’m not seeing a way forward.
Ubenedictus

 

[Hesychios]

Very true and very apt.

I think that the comments on the Poles are not just way off topic, but totally miss, or even cover up the point.

In Galicia, Zakarpatskaya, and Prjasheshchina, we not talking simply about reallocating properties according to the local demographics, as the Communists may have thought to be a good thing to do, we are talking about the violent liquidation of the Greek Catholic Churches and the handing over of their property to a group who had essentially zero representation in the local community before the property seizure and forced conversions.

The difference in not subtle.

I am aware of this.

So, do you think vengeance is an appropriate response? I don’t think you do.

You might also help complete the story about Chelm by pointing out the Czar undertook the forced liquidation of the Greek Catholic church there in 1875,…

The circumstances surround that episode are disputed, and the church was not ‘liquidated’, it returned to communion with the Orthodox as a diocese. People can read about it if they are interested by doing a search and drawing their own conclusions. Nevertheless I mentioned Chelm because the UGCC has been trying to claim the cathedral, and it still functions as a Roman Catholic … not a Greek Catholic … parish to this day because of past Polish government policies.

The treatment of Eastern Christians in Poland after WWII is usually overlooked in these discussions, but I think it is part of an general pattern of how the atheist governments treat believers. It’s not a Russian thing, or Polish thing or a Ukrainian thing. More than anything else it was a Stalinist practice.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Mukachevo only became Ukrainian in the 1940s. It is traditionally Hungarian and Czechoslovakian.

It is within the bounds of Ukraine today and could be legitimately included among the list of modern populations as you suggested. I’ll work on that!

You are a good man! To quote the title of one of the best books on the Rusyns, they truly are “The People from Nowhere”.