Patriarch Kirill says he won't meet the pope. Blames UGCC

[ByzCathCantor]

The treatment of Eastern Christians in Poland after WWII is usually overlooked in these discussions, but I think it is part of an general pattern of how the atheist governments treat believers. It’s not a Russian thing, or Polish thing or a Ukrainian thing. More than anything else it was a Stalinist practice.

Could this not be said of the situation in the entire region? And if so, shouldn’t Christians in good conscience want to work together for the good of all affected people to right this situation? If the Patriarchs suggested course of action could accomplish that, then from what I’ve read thus far, I’d be all for it. It would seem, however, that the involvement of a neutral party would also be beneficial in this process. Perhaps in the spirit of brotherhood in Christ the Patriarch could ask a delegate of the Pope to serve in this capacity, After all, the Vatican is a sovereign state, and they should have some people skilled in handling delicate matters. If that would be viewed as inappropriate, I’m sure others might be capable of supporting this process as a neutral facilitator.

BTW - in the interest of full and fair disclosure, I am a Lemko Rusyn by background, so when you mention Poland, my understanding of the situation is significantly more developed than my understanding of the Ukrainian-Russian dynamic.

Also, I mentioned the [Ruthenian] Eparchy of Mukachevo in an earlier post. If you look up the apostolic succession of this Eparchy, you will see listed as Bishop Milan Sasik’s predecessor none other than Blessed Pope John Paul II. The Vatican may not have been involved per se in much of this, but Rome was certainly well aware of the plight of Greek Catholics in this area. It is no surprise that Blessed Pope JPII took a personal interest, given his personal background.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Something tells me I’ll have to double my prayers for reunion.

 

[DadDave]

Forgive me if someone else brought this up, but shouldn’t there be a six-party meeting? Aren’t there four Ukrainian churches – UGCC, UOC-MP,UAOC, and UOC-KP? or is UOC-MP considered same as RO?

I could also see that a meeting with all parties involved is too premature at this point? It didn’t seem that relations between Vatican & Moscow were ready to start hammering out specifics such as territorial disputes. Perhaps they should agree on seeing each other as equals – i.e. non-heretical, non-schismatic, valid priesthood & sacraments, apostolic and both part of The Church that happen to be not-in-communion-but-soon-will-be?

For that matter will Russia give up its properties & provinces in the Ukraine – i.e. the UOC-MP to a “new” church that would constitute the UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UGCC, UAOC into 1 Ukrainian Church?

 

[dvdjs]

So, do you think vengeance is an appropriate response? I don’t think you do.

If you don’t think that I do, why do you raise a red herring? Why speak of vengeance at all? Why not simply stick to a legal adjudication of property titles?

The circumstances surround that episode are disputed …

Yes, and there are also some who dispute circumstances about the synod of L’viv and Uzhhorod. Everyone can conjure up their own history, and the some peoples have developed this approach into to an art form But no one is entitled to their own facts.

and the church was not ‘liquidated’, it returned to communion with the Orthodox as a diocese

That’s a keeper.

People can read about it if they are interested by doing a search and drawing their own conclusions

People might do that, but only now that they have been tipped off that you had failed to report salient facts.

Nevertheless I mentioned Chelm because the UGCC has been trying to claim the cathedral, and it still functions as a Roman Catholic … not a Greek Catholic … parish to this day because of past Polish government policies.

Again conveniently neglecting the past Russian practices that inform, if not ordain, the more recent ones.

The treatment of Eastern Christians in Poland after WWII is usually overlooked in these discussions, but I think it is part of an general pattern of how the atheist governments treat believers. It’s not a Russian thing, or Polish thing or a Ukrainian thing. More than anything else it was a Stalinist practice

.
Actually it isn’t. Indeed there are many netodox who spend an amazing amount of time seizing every opportunity to present a history that could drive a wedge between Roman and Greek Catholics. But that topic is not this one. “You too” is not a meaningful argument.

 

[Hesychios]

If you don’t think that I do, why do you raise a red herring? Why speak of vengeance at all? Why not simply stick to a legal adjudication of property titles?

Most interesting comment from someone who has continually complained about past government actions right here on this thread.

The words of Saint Paul:
If, therefore, you have courts for everyday matters, do you seat as judges people of no standing in the church? I say this to shame you. Can it be that there is not one among you wise enough to be able to settle a case between brothers?

But rather brother goes to court against brother, and that before unbelievers? Now indeed (then) it is, in any case, a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated?

Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. 1Cor 6:4-8

In any case, these things are extremely complicated for a number of reasons. What legal basis should be used? What is the precedent?

Should they turn over every parish established in 1595 and before to the Orthodox, and then every parish established afterward to the Greek Catholics?

Or should they use demographics?

Perhaps you would like the method used in Mexico, where all the parish churches actually belong to the government? Then the courts you have so much faith in could decide which part of the community gets to borrow which structure for worship!

There is no easy answer - the Christians involved need to talk about this and come up with a plan.

If they cannot sit together and work it out they all deserve the hell they are living in.

Actually it isn’t. Indeed there are many netodox who spend an amazing amount of time seizing every opportunity to present a history that could drive a wedge between Roman and Greek Catholics. But that topic is not this one. “You too” is not a meaningful argument.

I don’t see it.

I pointed out that what happened was a Stalinist practice not restricted to Russia or Ukriane, and I did not blame the Roman Catholic church for what happened in Poland (maybe you need to reread what I wrote).

I think that this needs to be seen in the context of totalitarian regimes manipulating church organizations, and the hatemongering between us has got to stop.

 

[Diak]

Dog bites man. No new news here. We in the UGCC have been a popular scapegoat for the Moscow Patriarchate since 1946 when (according to the MP) we supposedly disappeared.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is rather tiresome.

If the Pope is not recognizing a patriarch for some reason he should just say so. No Pope has publicly stated that he is doing this because of the Russians, or for any other reason. So far all we have is this ‘Urban Legend’.

That is how the Vatican works, it is content to let the people think what they will because it and direct their ire elsewhere.

So, are you in favor of a four party commission as suggested or not?

You are right, Rome has been careful not to say anything about it. Its Moscow thats very vocal in opposing the Patriarchate of the UGCC. I can understand Rome’s desire for unity, but at some point they have to recognize one of her own and not keep shunning the UGCC in favor of a Church that is obviously not interested in engaging in talks, but just playing politics.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dog bites man. No new news here. We in the UGCC have been a popular scapegoat for the Moscow Patriarchate since 1946 when (according to the MP) we supposedly disappeared.

I caught the efforts by the Catholic Sister’s their on a EWTN special. Wow, what a difficult situation with the kids. Disturbing, looks like much weight is placed on the Sisters and the Catholic Church their.

Prayers are with ya.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That I can certainly understand, although it goes to the very core of a related matter in the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue.

The UGCC is a global Church, which is “headquartered” in its nation of origin. To establish this as a Patriarchial Church should be absolutely meaningless to the Orthodox, unless of course they assume the Eastern Churches would “surrender” and become Orthodox in a reunion of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Am I missing something, perhaps (yet again)?

Thanks for your patience. I would like to be an informed supporter of my dear UGCC friends and Eastern Catholic brethren.

A canonical patriarchate in Ukraine, either Orthodox or Catholic, will just strengthen the Ukrainian identity both ecclesiastically and politically. Its the last thing Russia would want.

I’m quite aware. I once had a lovely discussion with a former OCA priest (he was still an Orthodox priest when I spoke with him, just not OCA) who happened to be Ukrainian, He said he couldn’t stand Russians.

I agree, which means the four party talks that the Patriarch has proposed.

Hence the reason for talks.
The fact is for some of those properties it isn’t the first time they’ve been reposesed, and sadly probably won’t be the last. Hesychios is completely correct. The churches should sit down together and redistribute them based on population. If one of the sides has a particular attachment to a particular property that the others don’t, they should get that. But a pre-communist status quo is impossible to restore.

I believe Russia should just get out. If they fought for autocephally for Belarus, why can’t they leave Ukraine alone? Like I said, let the UOC and UGCC settle the matter of the churches. If Russia gets out, the 3 Ukrainian Orthodox Churches would no doubt merge. Their separation isn’t theological, they just don’t want to be under anything with a hint of Russian.

 

[Hesychios]

… at some point they have to recognize one of her own and not keep shunning the UGCC …

That’s right.

If the UGCC thinks it deserves a patriarch and thinks it can only have one if the Pope says so, it should be all over the Pope like white on rice. The reasons why Rome does what it does are not given in this case. Have him man up and tell you why he is not naming a Patriarch for the UGCC.

Blaming third parties is a dissipation of energy.

 

[Diak]

Regarding the disaster that was the attempted “Quadripartite Commission”, I strongly urge anyone who wants further information to contact persons who were there and witnessed this fiasco. Fr. Andriy Chriovsky of the UGCC (now in the UGCC Eparchy of St. Nicholas) was a secretary at the commission, saw it all first-hand and will be willing to spend hours if necessary discussing his observations. None of us in the UGCC want to see that happen again. We will discuss our own existence and future one-on-one and not let proxies determine our fate.

I was initially hopeful when the UOC-MP sent a representative to the enthronement of our Patriarch +Sviatoslav, but for many of us that hope is starting to once more wane with statements like this. But it is not just limited to the UGCC; the growth of the UOC-KP and the unification discussions between the UAOC and the UOC-KP have the MP in a very defensive position, as well as more recent dissent amongst some of the bishops within the UOC-MP from the dragging of Moscow’s feet with regard to autocephaly.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s right.

If the UGCC thinks it deserves a patriarch and thinks it can only have one if the Pope says so, it should be all over the Pope like white on rice. The reasons why Rome does what it does are not given in this case. Have him man up and tell you why he is not naming a Patriarch for the UGCC.

Blaming third parties is a dissipation of energy.

The ROC obviously believes (and probably knows) that her petty threats to get her something. Otherwise these statements such as the OP of this thread would not exist.

 

[Nine_Two]

Could this not be said of the situation in the entire region? And if so, shouldn’t Christians in good conscience want to work together for the good of all affected people to right this situation? If the Patriarchs suggested course of action could accomplish that, then from what I’ve read thus far, I’d be all for it. It would seem, however, that the involvement of a neutral party would also be beneficial in this process. Perhaps in the spirit of brotherhood in Christ the Patriarch could ask a delegate of the Pope to serve in this capacity, After all, the Vatican is a sovereign state, and they should have some people skilled in handling delicate matters. If that would be viewed as inappropriate, I’m sure others might be capable of supporting this process as a neutral facilitator.

Rome is already included as one of the four parties the Patriarch wants at the meeting, they wouldn’t be very neutral.

 

[Hesychios]

The ROC obviously believes (and probably knows) that her petty threats to get her something…

Even if we assume that were true it says a lot more about Rome and it’s relationship to the Eastern Catholics of Ukraine than anything else.

 

[Formosus]

If Moscow wants to talk to us, then they can come talk with us. No four party talks, just the UGCC and UOC-MP or the MP themselves.

 

[Hesychios]

If Moscow wants to talk to us, then they can come talk with us. No four party talks, just the UGCC and UOC-MP or the MP themselves.

Sounds like a plan.

 

[CDB1718]

Tomassus posted an article at ByzCath that looks at the relationship between Putin and the Moscow patriarchate.

No longer idyllic between Putin and Patriarchate. At least in appearance.

by Nina Achmatova
Asia News
1/31/2012

The Prime Minister and presidential candidate seems to have distanced himself from the Church, that holds out its hand to the anti-government protest movement. Experts: “This is just a strategy, the hierarchy can not do without the support of power.”

More at asianews.it/news-en/No-longer-idyllic-between-Putin-and-Patriarchate.-At-least-in-appearance.-23840.html

 

[John_of_Patmos]

Is there even a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Why is Russia such a confrol freak?!

 

[Nine_Two]

Is there even a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Why is Russia such a confrol freak?!

No there is not, and such attacks don’t help matters.

Historically it takes some time between a Church declaring itself autocephalous, and that autocephaly being recognized. The situation in Ukraine is made all the worse by the fact that there is a significant population which wishes to maintain the status quo in regards to Russia (something not present in other countries which have gone through the same thing). I have a hard time believing the Eastern Catholics figure into the issue for Russia - however they do figure into the issue of possession of church property.

Personally, the reasoning of “We hate Russians” is a horrific reason for autocephaly. Unchristian foundations for a Church to have.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

No there is not, and such attacks don’t help matters.

Historically it takes some time between a Church declaring itself autocephalous, and that autocephaly being recognized. The situation in Ukraine is made all the worse by the fact that there is a significant population which wishes to maintain the status quo in regards to Russia (something not present in other countries which have gone through the same thing). I have a hard time believing the Eastern Catholics figure into the issue for Russia - however they do figure into the issue of possession of church property.

Personally, the reasoning of “We hate Russians” is a horrific reason for autocephaly. Unchristian foundations for a Church to have.

I didn’t mean anything…
I love Russians…
sorry:imsorry:
I just wish politics wouldn’t interfere in Church stuff